blw2

that cub scouting connection to this is interesting to me, having only recently worked as cubmaster (and many other roles in the pack) and now really studying in depth the roles of a troop's scouter. You mention that its a very different role. Yes.... but as I'm thinking about it now, with the benefit of hindsight, I think maybe the difference shouldn't be so significant when comparing cubs with troop scouting. I did always feel that I was setting an example for the boys in everything I did. At least I tried to keep that in mind. As I think about it now though, I think instead of modeling the role of a do everything manager, i think it might have been a better program for the boys if they had an even bigger role to play. I often did things like trying to have an open dialogue with the boys during the pack meetings. Asking them about what they have been doing for example.... or asking them for input on which trips we should consider, but honestly I mostly got dear in the headlights stares .... I wonder if maybe they just didn't know how to react. They get so much of this lecturing and being "taught" and talked to in school, but they also get it in spades in cub scouts too. I'm thinking now, that scouts should be different. Not just Boy Scouts, but all scouts.... maybe the boys might have been better served by my doing things like perhaps having the older WEBELOS play more of like a SPL role in a troop meeting. & maybe take the discussion thing even deeper, in letting all of the boys be involved in planning the activities for meetings and trips.... such as for example have a short part of each pack meeting be a round table discussion of sorts to plan the next event or meeting. I mean let the boys be involved model for them actions more like what a SM should be doing.

Jedi Mind Trick, love it! @@00Eagle, familiar with NLP, you are.

Interesting thread Stosh You know, I'm thinking.... it might all boil down to human nature and a habit of micromanaging Something I've noticed through life is that more often than not it seems like people will tend towards micromanaging. yeah, yeah, some personality types do it more than others... and maybe that's it entirely... maybe its more about certain people that have a certain "type" that do it.... not just everyone or anyone Regardless, my point is that we have all known it experienced the receiving end of it, and I'd guess that at least most of us have done it. It seems that it takes purposeful intention to NOT micromanage sometimes. It seems like it often takes a thoughtful person, maybe someone that has read and studied a lot on the topic of psychology and/or management, maybe read some of the many self help books that address it in one way or another... So maybe it's because micromanaging is just so hard of a habit to break, and without good training and modeling in scouts people just don't come about it naturally.

a first blush, i wanted to write something about the whole program direction being vague, or open to interpretation..... which leads to misinterpretation or otherwise changing in the name of "improvement". sort of going back to my "one program thought" having to do with a lack of consistency... BUT I'm reminded of the book i recently read by baden powell, Aids to Scoutmastership. In there, a lot of the language tends towards mentorship and guidance... I want to agree with your post in spirit though. It does seem like lost opportunities for the boys every time an adult opens a mouth during a meeting that is not a Scoutmaster's Minute

agreed, good suggestion SSSCout! In the cubs, I asked the families and boys often if they had any grandparents that lived in the area that might be interested in helping. I always figured it would be a win win win a retired grandparent has time, wants to spend more time with their grandson, and some are likely old scouters or scouts themselves so they like doing what scouts do. I also reached out to our Knights of Columbus (Catholic CO), knowing that there are a lot of older guys there taht might fit into that mold... even though they might not have blood in the pack, they still might like the game of scouting... and they already have shown a tendency to volunteer, etc... Also it could be good to have an impartial person involved once in a while, for a different perspective on things. I never had any luck.... but that doesn't mean it's not a great suggestion!

nice collection of aphorisms there @@TAHAWK

So does a football fan pull for a team (aka patrol) or do they pull for the NFL League (aka troop)? Seems to me this thinking in terms of the troop is where this falls apart. and this language of the SPL being top really just reinforces a mistake. I'm not a football fan by the way.... but I have to say I've only seen fans pulling for a team, not for the League There just seems to be to much focus on troop, and not enough on patrol..... seems like lip service

#1 you are oh so right there! As CM, I didn't have a really functioning committee supporting the pack. Definitely no way to work! as far as suggestions.... sorry, I tried everything but had no luck. Did a lot of reading, and even took a course at our University of Scouting. All advice is to ask directly/approach specific people for a specific job...."Hi Joe, I've been thinking & YOU would be the perfect person for XYZ" to have an honest job description and be honest about how much time it will take. I think having the job descriptions handy is probably the best thing to do. You'll be right in the middle of something, adn someone will pull you aside and tell you that they would like to help..... then if you're not prepared you might miss an opportunity. Much better to pull a list out of you"back pocket" right then and there..... with all the details mapped out. BUT my biggest advice is this. Don't take on jobs that are not yours... and Recruiting the committee is not your job as SM. #2) seems to me the single best recruiting tool is your scouts themselves. They need to be asking their friends to join, and otherwise telling stories about what they did last weekend that will make the other boys say, "wow, sign me up!" So that means encourage your scouts to have a fun and active program. #3) I'm not sure. Maybe not a bad idea. Again, cubs not scouts... but as a comparison...Along with our CC, we tried to have a parent meeting like this a time or two. They weren't attended well at all. We did have a few committee meetings where the parents had to bring their kid(s) along... maybe the spouse was working or whatever... That was less than ideal. The adult discussions sometimes would have been best left apart from the scouts ears I think. Probably easier with the older boys in the troop, you could send them outside or to another room

I'm going to agree with you on one point, sure it might be something the adults need to be involved with but it's who and how I'll admit maybe I was a bit off base when i suggested taht maybe there is no problem because the boys don't think there is.... i wasn't considering the actual numbers involved. You're maybe right in a way that the whole troop is kind of starting over.... but except for that I'm not thinking that i was so far off base.... An adult needs to be involved, sure. The SM should be involved as a coach and mentor. Of course it wouldn't be a great idea to just let the boys not do anything only to react after the fact..... so the SM should probably be talking to his SPL as a side, away from other meetings, in more of a discussion format asking questions and so on, helping him to see a potential issue coming at them, and helping him to think of some options. The trick as I'm seeing it is in the helping and guiding, without directing and telling. The adult meeting as described, I would argue, shouldn't really be formally happening unless the SPL had asked the SM for help and teh SM asked the committee to brainstorm. Sure, only natural for the adults to see the train coming and to even discuss options.... but that discussion shouldn't in my opinion be considered from the angle of a decision or coming up with a direction that will be directed to the scouts. Instead, maybe it's the committee seeing the problem and discussing, then saying to SM, "hey, have the guys thought of what's going to happen when the troop doubles in size next month? Here are some things the committee noticed that seem to be not going well with the patrols now, and some ideas and options we thought of...." then the SM might relay the concerns and general thoughts to the SPL/PLC... but the ideas, thoughts, and options might come out as hints or suggestions in brainstorming if asked, as the scouts try to come up with stuff on their own.... not as a list of demands or choices coming down from upon high... The best professors I had in college were the ones that answered questions with a question... not the ones that answered the questions before they were asked..... and not the ones taht answered the questions with the answer. This is something I'm personally not skilled at, but I'm working on it.

yeah, that's the way our pack has always done it... but it ain't true. Well for some who wait till the last minute to pencil whip the last few things maybe.... my son was finished last year with everything but the time requirement, troop visits, and the SM conference with the SM of the troop he might want to join. So he earned it basically 2 months before our early crossover is planned (3-months before the more typical crossover date) and yes, very good point about letting him sew it on. He knows how in theory at least.....

my first thought was why are you even having that discussion? So I would then ask why don't you (the SM) just put the question out to the SPL or PLC? not the patrol restructure question... but the root of it.... mentioning that it seems the patrols aren't working well (or whatever the motivation was that prompted this discussion in the first place) Put the problem to them then if they get stuck, or ask for suggestions, the SM could brainstorm these ideas with the SPL who would brainstorm it with the PLC.... who knows, maybe they don't really have a problem with the way it is. or maybe they do and just didn't notice it or just didn't know what to do about it and if there really is a problem, they might come up with an entirely different solution to try. and if ultimately they come up with the same idea that the adults did, to restructure the patrols.... Stosh's suggestion of giving them some basic guidelines regarding patrol size and then stepping back seems to be spot on in keeping with letting the boys lead

good discussion Pretty much as I expected.... the initial reactions from the paradigm of a corporate/military pyramidal structure then further reflection on the most "important", etc... I feel like this whole topic is one of the great grey area "trip-ups" that leads to misunderstandings of patrol method, boy led, etc... and this statement in the handbook does nothing really to help clarify it all. When the typical thought process asks things like who is in charge? Who is leading who? but the questions that perhaps should be asked are stuff more along the lines of Who is supporting who? What's the end game or goal of the whole thing? Don't get me wrong, I see definite value in the traditional pyramidal thinking. Obviously it works for military and for business... I'm not trying to be an off the wall free spirited non-conformist. There surely must be value in learning that sort of hierarchy... but it seems like scouting doesn't "want" to be that way. Maybe the individual scout should be thought of as being at the pinnacle of the pyramid, with the patrol supporting him, the troop supporting the patrols, and the adults supporting the troop I've been observing and thinking about this patrol method idea for a while now. the way it's generally thought of and treated seems inconsistent, very conflicting.... broken even. the way my twisted mind works anyway, i feel like the... well I want to use the word "best", but that's not quite right.... let's say the "most productive" way to look at it might be the idea that the patrol IS the central unit where scouting happens. with bringing out the good in the individual scout being the target goal the patrol is the core focus group so the patrol is THE group that decides what the patrol wants to do, in the best interest of it's scout patrol members. they elect their own leader and in this way the patrol members (aka "boys") "lead" their own destiny. and in this way the troop really carries a much smaller importance.... perhaps no importance from the perception of leadership anyway AND the troop's purpose becomes support for the patrols.... who are supporting their own scout members. So from this perspective, isn't the troop following the leadership of the patrols?

off topic comment, but I'm disappointed that my son will not get to wear his AOL patch on his cub uniform. I don't think he really cares, but I'm disappointed.... This is something I pushed for strongly when I was CM (presenting the award when earned, rather than waiting for the B&G/AOL Graduation/Bridge Crossover marathon of a day) I thought the DL was on board with the idea too. I even picked up the AOL patches for the den when i was at the scout shop in late November, in preparation to present in December (my son finished his AOL requirements with the roll of the calendar into december, since he only had to wait for the time requirement having done everything else... but sadly, the DL chose not to present it at the last pack meeting or den meetings. I really wish that I would have just held my son's patch and sewed it on.... just so he could show up at a few meetings with it on..... but truthfully, I don't think he cares so no biggie I guess

My observations after experiencing a bunch of new DE's roll through The guy that was Eagle had more passion for scouting than the several entry level straight out of college girls that followed him, which made him seem at least to care about his job a bit more He also had a better understanding of Boy scouts in general, which translated I think to a slightly better impression on others (maybe inspired slightly more confidence...) BUT as others have suggested, I don't think it made a hill of beans worth of difference to the job itself. Might arguably even been a hinderance as he got pulled doing stuff he knew in no direct way helped the boys (only my assumption, not backed by anything said or observed)

no, I don't have a copy of the centennial edition.... One more update The new spiral bound doesn't fit well in the handbook cover sold by the scout shop (ordered at the same time as the new book. It barely closes.

oh, I had another thought I forgot to add.... all of the sign offs and logs are collected together in the last 25 pages or so, The rest of the book is just reference stuff.... nothing new here I guess But it would be easy enough to copy or pull these log pages out, reinforce the holes, or bind them into their own volume.... or even copy them onto some good water resistant and tough paper and just buy a new copy of the reference stuff if ever needed.

this is off topic I know But I have wondered about these military issue tents. I just can't imagine that these little things see much use. It seems that when the military needs a quick shelter behind the lines, they have all sorts of things, form those big inflatable hanger type things, to prefab buildings and such but for a soldier up closer to the line on the move, would they really pack a little tent along with them?

I remember reading someplace, I forget where, the idea that since everything in scouting happens (or should) at the patrol level the Patrol Leader is the top position or leader in the troop With the SPL being more of a supporting role to the Patrol Leaders, helping them to work together as a PLC... I get the sense though, that the general consensus is that the SM is the top leader in a troop until something is mentioned about Boy Led concept then the "top leader" quickly becomes the SPL So everything is thought of in the classic pyramid with the SPL at the top point, and the adults above that on the spire that extends above the SPL... like a TV antenna atop a skyscraper.... So I was thumbing through my son's 13th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook that came in the mail yesterday & I happened to notice something I found interesting on the page about PORs Under the heading, Senior Patrol Leader the first sentence reads "The senior patrol leader is the top leader in the troop." I guess the book follows the generally accepted idea is the troop being the organization that stands superior to the patrol... but I kinda like the other idea that reinforces the concept of the scout being a member of the patrol first, and the troop second.... So what do you folks think? Is this idea of the PL being the most important leader in a troop merely an analogy to reinforce the idea that everything happens at the patrol level? Just seems like lip service to me....

My son's spiral bound 13th Edition arrived in the mail yesterday. Ordered it from scoutstuff around 1-1/2 weeks ago. First impression is it seems much more visually interesting than my 9th edition I got in 1980 (my mom saved it and gave it back to me when my son got into cub scouting) Nice looking photos and graphics but also visually cluttered and I think probably hard to find stuff in... I've got to admit I'm not impressed with the paper. I'll guess that these covers and many pages will be kinked, torn, and probably falling out in short order. How easy it would have been to select a more durable paper! I'm not sure about the spiral, it looks like it will hold up ok, and not get bent like the old wire spirals I had in school, and cause the notebook to not open nicely.

I like my REI quarter dome, fairly lightweight and airy although it's fairly new so not sure about durability. I like it a lot better than the old Kelty it replaced.... not that Kelty is bad in any way..... just a feature thing. But I'm guessing in the UK you're not likely to be as interested as I am in ventilation, probably more so in continued rain protection....

Boy, this webelos burnout, drops and losses really hits home. I'm living all that first hand right now, well I'm at the threshold of the exit door.... My theory, just based on one perspective... my own.... I think a huge part of it goes back to lack of support early on while the leaders are figuring it out. Training stinks The scouters just figuring it out in the pack are burned out and checked out.... or they have a bunch of bad habits. there is no pass down of knowledge. Take my son's DL for example. He picked up the job in the wolf year when the 1st DL moved out of town. He tried and made good effort in making a go of the program, but several things got in the way of a program that "probably" would have worked better He made a good effort, but he wasn't exactly gung ho like I have been (searching out this forum as a case in point) On top of that he's not one of those naturally good teacher types....leading a group of kids, holding their interest, keeping them in line, etc... Just like me, a 'typical' average dad I would say in that regard with no training in that field. He did the most basic of training, but that doesn't help all that much. Wasn't gung ho enough to be jazzed about searching out actuall face to face leader specific training for example, and so he never did really gain a full understanding of the program, the transitions, the things we should have started when the boys put on the plaid. Instead he pretty much just continued running the den as we did for the tiger, wolf, and bear years before.... activities for an older boy, sure, but the way the thing ran. I pretty much fall into the same area, even considering I've participated here, attending far more training classes than any other scouter in the pack, etc.... I would say without a doubt that I often think that I wish I could go back and do it over again, except knowing what I know now.... but I'm far too burned out with cubs to be gung ho about doing that.... and with no younger son coming up... Even now, as I'm focusing my energies on learning more about troop level stuff, I'm learning things that make me say, "boy I sure do wish someone would have told me that several years ago!" Boiling down this rambling post, my point is this...... from my perspective, I think a focus of this UC Corps could be mentoring young and energetic scouters to help them focus without haveing to re-invent every wheel.

I think you guys might have misunderstood again what I was trying to get at. I'm 100% in agreement with what you are saying I don't think it was a win.... means that I think it was a lost opportunity I do think that it's possible and arguably likely that a bad attitude is contagious. But I also agree with you guys that it probably wouldn't amount to much.... I might add unless it's not addressed.... and I don't mean addressed by discipline, but by the bringing out the good in the boy, as you guys are getting at....

that's why I qualified that I believe its what they are most interested in. head count (and its direct relationship to $) OT stuff? help me out, another acronym I don't know... well OT often mean "Occupational Therapy".... but I'm thinking that's not it based on context...

I've seen several examples like your convenience stores too. Gas stations come to mind. Some grocery stores. And until recently we had two ace hardware stores no more than a mile or so down the road. Both ace but different franchise owners. Stosh, your two churches and the fence story cracks me up. I often think how "funny" it is sometimes when I drive along noticing all the churches. It's very common really, Usually grouped very close along some stretches of roads. You'll have two churches across the street from each other, another down the road a short piece, then another, then maybe two more right next door. All of them Christian, just with different twists to the same theme. Often two or more will even be the same denomination. I just scratch my head sometimes thinking of how the events might have unfolded for that to be in any given community.

@@Stosh wrote in red But is it a win or loss? Anytime a boy doesn't get an opportunity to be a Scout, it's a loss in my book. Well that was my point in the post. All of that probably stuff I wrote before is nothing but an acknowledgement that I "understand" another side to the "argument", and I'll acknowledge that there are very good odds that the "bad egg" could have infected others if he stuck around (in fact in might already have... or not). I wasn't trying to say that I think it was a win.