trainerlady

One council south of me was part of the ATV pilot. It was only open 14 years and older and cost an extra $55 for a week. From what I've heard it went over well. It was Pioneer Scout Reservation in Ohio.

A little further north from Swiss Valley are Timber Ridge and Bittersweet (around Kalamazoo area). We have skied Bittersweet a few times and enjoyed it. Its a nice area with good learnng areas. Both areas usually have lots of snow, they make it and are in the snow belt off of Lake Michigan. You could stay at one of the Southwest Michigan Council camps in the area. Have not been to any of their camps. If the weather craps out on you while you're there you can go to the Air Zoo in Kalamazoo. It is awesome. A great aviation museum.

Scouts Canada is very similar to the UK system except is is school grade based. Beavers - Kindergarten, 1, 2 Wolf Cubs - 3,4,5 Scouts - 6,7,8 Venturers - 9,10,11,12 Rovers - College/University (18-25) Camping and fitness activities are required in every level of their program. The depth and length of the camping and fitness requirements increase each year based in the age if the scout. A day camp and short hike for Beavers building to 1-2 week high adventure type treks for Rovers. Most of my experience is with the younger 3 groups. They run on a 3 year loop program. A joining requirement section (similar to Bobcat or Scout) is done every year as is a bridging section (crossover) to the next level. The items covered for the rest if the year are unique to that year and won't be repeated for 3 years. Unlike the BSA Cub program the scouts don't cover nutrition, flags, and other activities each year. Learn it in depth once and move on, less boredom factor. Badges play an important role in achievement - they are required for aged based awards. There are no real ranks in the Canadian program as far as I can tell. All scouts work towards their age based/level award. Leadership is based on grade - in Scouts 6th graders are patrol members, 7th graders are patrol seconds (assistant PL), and 8th graders are the patrol leaders. Same thing in Beavers and Cubs just different titles. The Beavers are very programed and adult led, Cubs start making some decisions (food for camp, craft choices, etc), Scouts are making more decisions but still have adult guidance, Venturers are pretty much independant and Rovers are on their own. Adult leadership seems to be a good fit for the maturity level of the kids. The BSA has the programs in place to separate out the age groups a little better. Everyone seems to forget about Varsity Scouts (it isn't just for the LDS Church, they just use it the most). Lets have Cubs (Tiger to Bear), Webelos (up to Tenderfoot), Scouts, Varsity Scouts (advancement based choice) or Venturers (high adventure/fun less advancement focus but available) for those over 15/in high school.

Son got through his SMC last night. He and 2 other boys got proper SMCs last night not the previously mentioned interrogations. The 2 other boys had been signed off for 1st class requirements for over 1 year but hadn't gotten the SMC done because they were afraid of the SMC and getting interrogated. They are twins and one has moderate to severe learning disabilities and he just gets massively flustered with the improper SMCs that had done before. In 4 months the boys should be Star (they has almost all of their Eagle requireds done and each won a POR in the election). The twin without issues hadn't advanced out of loyalty to his brother, they were doing it together. Seems the SM and the CC had a change of heart on doing their own thing when they were called on running an inappropriate SMC when they knew better. We'll see how long it lasts. I know of 4-5 more scouts that have been dodging SMCs for the same reasons. Maybe now we'll see some kids that should have advanced long ago get to where they belong.

Don't know for a fact but I've been told by Venturing leaders in my district that BSA members aren't allowed to attend any sort of moot. Apparently there is a beer tent involved at many of them. Since the BSA has a strict no alcohol policy they refuse authorization for Venturers to attend moots. Just what I've heard.

I think OGE has it right. If you don't get a chance to use it you lose it.If you live in the great white north as we do your bicycle gets hung in the garage for 4-6 months over the winter. The first ride in the spring is usually pretty shakey and maybe has a fall or two. It doesn't mean that you are a poor bike rider it means you're out of practice and will get you groove back with some practice. In my son's case he know the required items cold when they were signed off, but there was no practice offered within the troop given their warped way of doing things. So one year later when tested on it he falters, and fails an SMC. Even if you "can't fail an SMC", getting told to come back next week and try again is seen as failure in the eyes of an 11 old. As someone with an advanced degree in movement science, and sportsmedicine I can tell you without a doubt that muscle memory declines rapidly without regular re-enforcement that practice gives. The same holds true for brain memories. Processes used everyday have premenance (talking, writing, simple math, etc), those that aren't used fade over time (advanced math, an used foreign language, a favorite song from your childhood,etc). It isn't a fair assessment of one's skills to expect what was once a flawless skill to stay such over time when there has been no practice or need for that skill over long periods of time. To put it in another line of thinking. Most of us have taken CPR training at one point in time. Your skills a few days after class were probably very good, you passed the class right. Unless you need to do CPR regularly your memory of the skill fades over time. Six months out from class you could probably pull it off, but not as well as in the days after class. A year or 2 out from your class you may or may not remember all the steps, and may or may not get them in the right order and you may/may not give adequate compressions. You give the best care you can if the need ever arises and you know in your heart that you did what you could. It was better than standing there panicking. But you were certified and competent a year or 2 ago, you just got rusty from not using it. Not a bad thing, a fact of life actually. That's why all major CPR agencies require re-certifiaction after 2 years. The same thing happens with scouting skills.

Moose - yes POR elections are next week. Troop rules are you have to be first class (what he was trying for last night) to have a term in a POR count for Star. If you start a POR as a second class and move to first during your term it doesn't count, don't know why, just another the way we do it thing - too hard to count time served for each boy if they move ranks during a POR???. Also son won't be going to summer camp this year as we are spending a few weeks out of the country on a once in a life time globe trot courtsey of the late father-in-law. The troop has a policy that if you aren't going to summer camp you can't hold a POR over the summer term. We don't live in the country, but our troop is the only one to meet on Sunday nights. Only one troop in the area meets on a night other than Monday and it only has 6 kids, 3 of whom are active. Monday is not an option for the family at this time. So there really isn't another option available to us.

Fred - thanks for the supportive IM My frustration to answer several inquiries is based on the interrogation style of the SMC when that is blatantly not what BSA and G2A describe/mandate. Also only ASMs or the SM can sign off on skills at all levels. No youth is allowed to sign off anyone else regardless of rank, hence no youth teaching youth. I am WB trained, Philmont Scout Ranch trained in Webelos to First Class and fully SM trained. So I know that what is going on is wrong and finally lost my cool and called the SM and CC on it last night. My son can cook anyone under the picnic table, he's been practicing at home. He can tie all his knots, finally pitch and take down his own tent by himself (it was new at summer camp and he needed me to show him how to do it). After 4 campouts he's got it down to the point that he taught his tentmate 2 weeks ago to do it with him. He can swim like a fish, and knows his first aid cold. The frustration is that he was FAILED number one, and over trivial stuff (in the scheme of the real world and life) number two. It isn't about instant gratification. He wouldn't see his patch for his new rank unitl February away. He'd get it at the next CoH (I know that is wrong too). Its about demanding proficiency at the wrong time and in the wrong place. Its about never giving the kids a chance to practice with supervision that knows what they are doing. The kids may as well be Lone Scouts and learn if they can on their own and show up once a quarter for a test of their learning abilities. Then if they learned sufficiently well on their own they can move on. It is also frustration that while this was occuring and other boys were waiting their turns for a SMC (the boys form a line of chairs at a designated spot in the meeting room everyone knows what the boys are waiting for) our Eagle scout SPL, ASPL and two more Eagles were screwing around because they already the Eagle required badge being taught that night and weren't interested in the alternate badge. To their defense none of the younger kids asked for help, but the Eagles didn't take the intitative to offer help or pointers to the little guys waiting to be grilled. The 4 ESs are not what I want my son to grow up to be. In fact during son's last SMC our special needs scout was waiting for his first SMC. Son quizzed SNS, if asks you ______, what are you going to answer? If the answer wasn't quite right he would correct him. He coached another kid through a stressful time. Its frustration about not really having a good alternative troop to go to and knowing that in reality things aren't going to change even though they are doing it really, REALLY wrong. And it is worry that son will now be black balled for a POR and won't get to advance any further anyway.

A bit if background before I launch into my questions on this subject. We chose our current troop based on my sons friends heading there (their parents liked the program), it was on a good night of the week for us, and its leaders were very well trained (several WBers), and the CC and SM sit on district committee for MBC chair and advancement chair. Two gentlemen I respected a lot. So what happens to the kid whose troop doesn't give him the opportunity to practice his basic T-2-1 skills multiple times each year? Our troop is all about MB classes during meetings (I don't even want to go there right now), no patrol games, no patrol meetings and definitely no advanced scouts teaching younger scouts except when needed for advancement, its webelos III. T-2-1 skills are taught onceby adult and signed off by an ASM or SM when the scout shows him/her their work. We camp regularly, do community service, but the kids don't use a lot of the T-2-1 stuff during these outings. Then months later the candidate is expected to complete mastery of the skill for his scoutmaster conference/interrogation. Son had his SMC tonight for first class and was failed because he couldn't remember the parts of the first class badge. He was told to go look it up and come back, by the time his turn rolled around again it was the end of the meeting. Come back next week. I admit bear mom came out tonight. I just went to ASM training and had it drilled into me that SMCs aren't tests. So I asked the SM and CC why they retest signed off requirements when the literature (I was holding the SM handbook and the Scout handbook) say otherwise. SM and CC (the former SM) saw nothing wrong with making SMCs into interrogations. They told me this was their last chance to insure the that the scouts knew what they were signed off on. Its the way we have always done it. So does years of wrongs make it right? Son and I (especially me) are so disillusioned right now we don't know if this is something we want to keep doing. I don't want to switch troops at least not right now. I don't want to show son the if you have a problem here you can fix it by leaving and going somewhere else philosophy. I want to show him that you can fix a problem by standing up for what is right. Thanks for your thoughts, sorry if this post is off the topic a bit but it seemed (to me at least) to fit in here based on the way the discussion has been going.

My husband's company goes through thousands of cases of Sqwincher each year (he works in a steel mill turning liquid steel into slabs). They use the individual liquid concentrate envelopes, pre-mix ready to serves, and powdered Nutri Sweet for the diabetic staff memebers. Here are his comments on Sqwincher. Sugar content is very high in the regular products, Nutri Sweet stuff tastes awful. Orange is accepatable, citrus is acceptable, fruit punch is acceptable. He says if you really want to have fun with your troop use the grape flavor. It turns your poop an amazing shade of neon green, something about the dye used to make it purple. He also says a great treat is to use the concentrate packets to make snowcones with crushed ice. But given his choice he'll take the Gatorade everytime when it is available. If you want Gatorade try ordering directly from them. They have some great deals in the late summer/early fall (football season). You can get large quantity powder packs relatively cheaply. Some of their packages even come with coolers. If they won't sell directly to a Scout troop ask your local high school's Certified Athletic Trainer if they can order for you. Powerade does the same thing.

Bart, The 3 sections are candidate (scout), counselor, and unit. At no point do blue cards go to the council. They can be used as proof of earning a badge to get one from your local Scout Store if needed. But now the G2A is stating that badges and ranks can only be bought with proper advancement forms being turned in.

Irsap - no offense taken. Hope my response didn't come off that way. Just a bad turn of events. We have also had to cancel part of a campout due to rising flood waters into our campsite. We had had several days of multi inch rainfalls. The days going into the campout were dry so the site had dried out but the river system was near its max. It started to rain while we were setting up (seems to be the way all our camps go) nothing bad, just enough to be annoying. However thirty miles away it monsooned for hours. By the next afternoon the park ranger came and told us to leave, in about 12-16 hours we'd be under 6-8 feet of water due to an upstream dam having to be opened for flood relief. We packed up and left. The weather forecast had called for scattered showers not amounting to much for the entire region. No reason to cancel. Either we're very unlucky or the local weatherman needs to go back to school

Mom, Do you let your boys take MBs at summer camp? I'd rather see my boys take a class at a MBU over our council summer camp any day. At MBU I know they are being taught by ACTUAL MBCs not some kid a couple of years older than the scouts who has no interest, or knowledge of the subject matter. These events are not what the MB program was designed to be but I feel they have a place in the program when used once a year. My district does one and it centers around hard to get badges, ones that don't have a lot of counselors, and ones that you need special facilities for. Our district doesn't just give away MBs at this event. If the kids aren't in FULL uniform, with MBP in hand and pre reqs done they aren't admitted to class. Screw around in class you're asked to leave the room, no badge. Come in late, you are asked to leave. We don't fool around. Occasionally we have to give in to this sort of event to keep kids interested in the program. If kids and more importantly parents don't see progress they leave. Kids today are instant gratification driven. Parents want to see progress. No progress, no scouts.

To fill in a few of the blanks about our campout last weekend. We were 10 minutes away from our meeting place in a municipal park that is very scout friendly. The weather forecast was for a windy weekend, 5-15 mph with occasional gusts of more. Everything started out well on Friday night, some light winds a bit of rain nothing out of the ordinary for a fall weekend in Michigan. Saturday morning the winds picked up SIGNIFICANTLY with quite strong gusts. The winds kept building as the day progressed. Gusts got stronger too. The skies were partly cloudy, cool but not cold. By noon the wind was howling. The first damage had been done by this point. The four lost tents were what my family calls "condo tents" (the huge sleeps 8+ people kind with multiple rooms). They were never meant to be in conditions like what they were set up in. They were too big, too few stakes, poorly designed flies, you get the picture. The 4 damaged tents were more appropriate to the conditions. Two had aluminum poles bend, 2 had grommets pull out or rip out (these were $300+ backpacking/outfitter level tents). It was our troop's Webelos weekend - a campout for the local Webelos to come to a troop outdoor activity weekend. The weather forecasts were acceptable a few days out, even the day we started, scattered showers, mild winds, cool but not cold temperatures. So no need to cancel. The site was also chosen due to the access of the rec building as a CYA area. As it turned out we needed it. It was unfortunate that we had losses. Some of them are being covered by the tent manufacturers, some of the repairs are not as expensive as first feared. One company even gave us a sizeable discount on replacement parts because we are scouts. Another company is giving the families credit towards new tents at their truck load sale this coming weekend. I don't think we should have cancelled. It was just an unfortunate turn in the weather.

My son's troop eneded up doing that tonight at camp. I went in for the day to lead a hike and was told that they were having movie night tonight because of weather conditions. The wind is blowing 30-40+ mph all day today. Not safe to have a campfire, storms are threatening tonight. Lost 4 tents due to the winds and damaged 4 more in the winds, probably about $750 in damages. The troop ended taking what was left of the tents down and moving into the recreation building they're camping beside. They are making the best of a bad night. Don't want to make it a habit, but under the circumstances it beat everyone going home a night early.

I and most of my pack and troop use the Cascadian mess kits sold by BSA Supply. They are now BPA free and come in a mesh bag for drying. It contains a plate with a raised lip (good for stews but not soups), bowl,cup, spoon, fork and knife. The cutlery is very sturdy plastic and the knife is serrated (will cut steaks). The only problem I've had with my family's 3 sets is my daughter's GS camp counselor melting the tines of her fork together while demonstrating campfire cooking. DD was the only kid in her camp group to have a mess kit at summer camp. Supply sells them for $9.99 and repleacement cutlery packs for $2.99. It holds up well, ours on their 7th year. Plastic knife cuts well but doesn't score the plate too much. I've seen the same set at Target for $15.99 and at the GS store for $19.99 (GS logo added for the extra $10). Also saw double sets by same company at Gander Mountain for about $25. So Supply isn't really that bad on this item. As for the BSA aluminum cook kits, the are awful. Son got 1 and used it once. It warped with the heat from his MSR Pocketrocket stove. You get what you pay for with this one. Using it as an eating set requires more hands than the average scout has. I've seen more food spilled at Cub summer camp in the dining hall than I care to due to kids and Dads trying to use a cook kit for eating purposes. Plus you have to buy/get utensils because the BSA cook kit doesn't come with them.

JH, Checked out the link to their insignia guide. If a Scout EVERY possible award then their uniforms will be cluttered up too. But not every Scout earns EVERYTHING. And something to remember Canadian Scouts aren't wearing a badge sash anymore. My son HATES his with a passion. I'd rather have everything stitched on a shirt and only have to worry about grabing a shirt and necker on the fly. Although their uniforms can get cluttered they still have streamlined the dressing process.

Shortridge, Politeness has been said to be our (Canadians)greatest flaw. Not a bad one to have.

The Canadian scouts will wear their badges on their shirt sleeves in rows of two. Just like I did when I was a Canadian Brownie. Canadian uniforms have never had the "bling" American ones have. The Canadians don't have unit numbers like the US does and there are no real Council shoulder patches either. They may have a small,about the size of a US patrol patch, Council patch on a shirt sleeve. Units tend to be identified by their neckerchiefs. Whole groups from Beavers to Rovers use the same necker. Although there is one National necker, in 2 sizes, not many units use it. I see no problem with them not having a uniform pant. Telling the kids and leaders to wear a pair of khakis that they already have or can use for something else makes a lot of economic sense. I wish my son could have worn his navy blue school pants in Cubs instead of the overpriced uniform pants BSA sells. Girl Guides Canada does the same thing, shirts and sashes only. As a result just about every Scout and Guide has a full uniform in their associations eyes. And get this the Canadians actually used a Canadian clothing company to design and manufacture their uniforms. I don't know if they are Canadian made but a Canadian company is reaping the benefits from doing business with Scouts Canada. Perhaps the kids and adults will like their uniform shirts well enough to invest in other non uniform clothing from that company. I believe the company is called Joe Fresh. Joe Fresh sells Scout uniforms cheap and they get business because they connected with shoppers that might have never worn their clothes otherwise. Did anyone notice that the Canadians actually have an activity shirt (t-shirt) available to them as part of their uniform choices. So they can wear it on camping, hiking, or anything else you can think of. Pretty smart in my books. And the t-shirt option is considered full uniform. Maybe BSA could learn a thing or two from the Canadians when it comes to uniforms. Plain, simple, neat and and inexpensive.

Eamon - your regional camp idea maybe a reality sooner than you think. Central region Area 2 is discussing this right now. They are talking about how many camps do we really need in Michigan, northern Ohio, and maybe part of northern Indiana. How many coucnils do we really need to serve a declining population of youth. How do we staff these camps, councils and districts. The findings and suggestions are at some level common sense, startling, and inventive. In our area we are closing schools to beat the band, laying off firefighters, police and ambulance staffs, consolidating services. The public sector is realizing that you can't staff for millions when you only have hundreds of thousands. GS here made their adjustments 4 years ago. 21 councils then down to 3 now. I hear they are doing it nation wide from friends around the country. It'll only be a matter of time before the BSA sees the light and right sizes. Or maybe they'll just get hit in the head by the light. Maybe then we'll see good, competent camp staffs. The pool of staff members will only have to service a few regional camps instead of having to service a multitude of smaller council camps. The regional camp would have the cream of the crop of staff members. Maybe this will lead to a cream of the crop camp program. A cream of the crop program could lead to more older scouts wanting to go to camp. If they have a reason to stay in scouts, a good camp program, maybe they'll stay around longer and membership can at least hlod even instead of dropping. amazing how improving one area could lead to increases in other areas.

Basement - We realize we are blessed with hubby's job situation, but it can be a curse too. There is no family life for him at a time when the kids need him most. We wish the company would share the wealth just a bit. Hire 5-6 more guys, give everyone 40-50 hours a week and a life. But our of our control. Shortridge - Our council requires the supervision levels stated claiming that's what National states. They're version of the rules I guess. As to switching out parents the camp was 3.5 hours from everyone's home. Not exactly a drive up and back for an 8 hour supervision shift. Coucnil also requires everyone to be registered and the state of Michigan also requires background checks on all adults staying in camp for more than a short visit. No BSA registration, no background check no staying at camp. I bet if the standards were changed to allow a GS style camping experience for Cubs, if not younger BS, that at least in my area the number of kids going to summer camp would increase tremendously. I still maintain that we aren't filling a niche that needs filling. The GS program even lets girls that aren't members camp - they add the registration fee for membership to the camping fees. Bingo - more girls in camp and higher numbers of girls registered, maybe even more that start going to a local troop after a great time at camp. Heck in GS you can be a member that only camps. They have a new membership scheme going now. Camps, councils, leadership (all levels), and the association as a whole need to change and adapt with the times or we won't make a 150 years.

Basement - As one of four ASMs in the troop I had to go to camp. We took 18 boys to camp, therefore by our camps standards we needed 4 adults in camp at all times. A couple of other registered parents were in camp for a day or two at the beginning or end of the session but not for the whole thing. Our troop doesn't turn BS summer camp into a parent and lad camp. My saying "no" isn't as easy as you make it out to be. For 3 days mid week there were only the 4 SM/ASMs in camp. Also with my job I can have time off anytime I want, I just don't paid. Other parents get scheduled days off (firefighters, police officers, factory workers,etc), some have other children at home to care for. I have flexibility, they don't. Our family made the choice to put our daughter in GS camp the same week as son was in BS camp to make life easier on my husband who has ZERO flexibility in his job. While we were all gone he worked 70 hours, 30 hours of forced overtime in a HOT, HOT steel mill in 100 degree heat outside. So, Basement, if I had said no, tell me how you'd have picked the 3 kids that had to stay home for lack of supervision?

I am bleassed to have a boy scout and a girl scout in my family. Summer camps are night and day different for my kids. My daughter goes to camp on Sunday, kisses us good bye and we return after work on Friday and pick her up. We've done it this way since she was 7 years old. Son goes off to cub camp and now BS camp with Mom in tow. The BSA makes adults from units attend camp for leaderdship purposes. If a parent is a DL, CM, SM or ASM then we have to go to camp. Daughter pays $50 a week more than son for her camp. Son may pay less but I have to pay too. So the family pays a total of $100 more for him to go to camp. Plus I have to take a week off of work (no vacation pay at my job), that really equals the cost to the family of $400 more than her camp. GS camp never claims to be about advancement, just fun. BS camp always claims that by not going to camp the scout will be behind his peers due to lack of advancement opportunities. At son's first BS summer camp this year he had little fun. Too busy doing mb classes and advancing. Mb classes were jokes but he has 5 completed badges and 1 partial. Not a great use of the family money IMHO as he didn't really learn the subjects he took. Son has already asked to go to church or YMCA camp next year instead of BS camp. Its fun, BS camp isn't. Mom and Dad are thinking of that as a good possibility. The family can't afford the lack of my paycheck for a week unless things in the economy change over the next year. For the extra $150 or so above his BS cost to do a non-BSA camp, we're ahead my paycheck. Higher price camps (truly provo camps) are flourishing because parents unfortunately can't afford time off to go with their kids to BSA camps or other activities that require parental time. A YMCA type camp serves a huge niche. Daycare, evening care, grocery shopping, and entertainment needs for a kid. Its sad but a lot of families see long term camps as a way of taking care of their kids when school is out. no need to worry - kid is fed, sheltered, entertained, safe and getting exercise and fresh air, maybe laundry is done, haircut if needed. Until the BSA figure out the this isn't the Leave it Beaver era anymore and changes camps to meet the needs of current parents we'll lose campers, members and by default camps. Our council has 4 camps, 2 are 3-5 hours away from the membership, 2 are 1-2 hours away from the membership. The 2 close ones are 15 miles apart, one is small ans one rather large. One will be gone in a year or two if things keep going as they are. Neither distant camp was full this year for any week of camp. One of them will probably go too. It might just take a little longer to happen. The BSA needs to get out of the Leave it to Beaver days and realize that today's families and boys want and need different things than 10, 20 or 50 years ago.

The summer camp our troop attends is so wrapped up in MB classes that is brags about offering 51 badges, according to the CD the most of any camp in the region. A troop can't make honor troop unless 75% of youth attendees are taking at LEAST 4 or more MBs. Troops have to have at least 25% of adults in camp volunteer to teach MB classes while in camp to make honor troop as well. This was my first year at this camp (just moved up from Cubs), I was not impressed with the MB mill atmosphere. On day one of classes, an instructor told a group of kids beside the class I was sitting in on that he didn't care if they had their pre-reqs done or not, he wasn't going to check them. He then proceeded to tell them that the camp didn't have the budget or equipment to actually do the badge properly so they'd have to pretend. They'd use sticks and tape to make the needed models for model design MB. Through out the week we were there classes were fast tracked, requirements left out, and everyone got all the badges they were signed up for. Every Eagle required badge was offered that week. I know 2 kids from another troop got signed off for personal fitness. Heard them talking at the showerhouse while waiting that 15 minutes of creative spreadsheet making got them a 90 day badge. What a shame! I can see why none of our older scouts go to this camp and want no part of it after 2-3 years. IMHO, get rid of Eagle badges at camp, limit the number offered each year and roatate the offerings each year. Have a 3-4 year rotation of badges in each area. Keep them coming back each year because there'll be "new" badges next year. Schedule everyone a sesion at shooting sports, at the waterfront, a fun craft session (us Moms really like a 'I thought of you present'), add in a hike and general goof off time.Just my thoughts.

Buffalo Skipper, Any idea where they were from here in Michigan? I'd love to taalk to them. Thanks again. TL