BklynEagle

I personally would say that this should be grounds for the immediate and unappealable expulsion of the three Scouts involved. It grieves me to say that, in my own troop, not all of my fellow leaders would agree with this or any other punitive course of action, but that's another story altogether.

I think that the important thing is to make use of patrol names are aren't going to give a negative message. Nike's "Norsefire" and E-Mtns' "Foxfire" would be problematic, in my view, given the literary and cinematic contexts of the respective names. When a patrol in my troop wanted to brand themselves as the "Black Panthers", I was opposed, given the cultural and historical context; similarly, I would find a "Knights of the White Camelia" patrol or a "Klan" patrol equally unacceptable (not that I know too many people who even know what a Knight of the White Camelia is). Not knowing where you're located, bearshark, it's difficult for me to gauge the level of appropriateness of a "Green Beret" or "Green BARet" patrol. On the surface, I don't think it should be a problem, but I admit to being pro-military (which is why I like "Green Beret") and possessing a fairly wry sense of humor (which is why I like "Green BARet"). If you're from a military town, and assuming your boys kept it as the patrol for senior Scouts, I think that the locals would probably back you, providing the boys kept up on their behavior; conversely, if you're meeting just off the corner of Haight and Ashbury, then there might be a problem. I do, for the record, like some of the alternate proposals featured here, including "Green Bar" Patrol and "Hillcourt" Patrol, as these names would still pay homage to the Scouting concepts which your Scouts are obviously trying to reference. On the other hand, of course, you might suggest that they adopt a "Bearshark" patrol.

"vastly superior 'Chicago Style' deep dish"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! That sound you hear is me gagging. Needing a fork to eat a pizza! You ought to be ashamed of yourselves!

This project would've passed muster in my council too. Heck, and I'm sorry to have to admit it, merely repainting the existing fence would've been okay in these parts (That was an actual Eagle Project, and I know the Scout in question - For the record, NOT me)

I suppose clearing out the browsing cache could work, though as a rule when Scouter has been down on my home computer, it's also been down on other computers that I've accessed. Maybe me and BadenP could do a live debate, sell tickets; 5% ticket sales to BadenP, 5% to me, and the remaining 90% for the maintainence of the Scouter forums!

Glad to see the site's back online. BadenP: I'd like to know what "Catholic bigotry" was spewing from my post of Feb 26. I merely presented a Catholic perspective on where your rantings and raving err with regards to Catholic theology and tradition in and of themselves and with regards to the Catholic relationship to other Christian dynamics and traditions. Now, I know that YOU think that all of that is bigoted, but quite frankly I don't trust your opinion on this matter. I'd like to hear other posters' analysis of my Feb 26 and BadenP's Feb 26, and see who is popularly viewed as spewing bigotry. Frankly, I find it kind of amusing that you describe my faith practice as "flawed", "untrue", "deluded", "false", "a sham", "false theology", and "corrupt", but somehow I'm the bigot. Though I agreed with your post of Feb 23 in http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=267350&p=2, I am compelled to echo Oak Tree and say "Wow".

BadenP writes "Pope Benedict and his personally selected cardinals want to return to that elitist prevatican II church, first by eliminating all ecumenical talks with other Christian denominations". Well, I'm still waiting for that to happen. Actually, someone should let Benedict know, so he can stop that pesky dialogue with the Archbishop of Canterbury. (Fair warning, readers: this one's gonna be chock-full of sarcasm and snarkiness) He also writes that they will "[declare] that 'that the sacraments of the Catholic Church and the ordination of Catholic priests are the only truly valid sacraments in the eyes of God, and that all other sacraments and ordinations are invalid and illegitimiate.The Roman Catholic Church has the ONLY true path to eternal life'". I find it reassuring to know that you have already obtained a copy of Benedict's script. Having said that, of course, there are a few theological flaws in your copy of the script: First, the ordination of priests IS a sacrament of the Catholic Church, known as Holy Orders, so to separate ordination from the other sacraments is, in a Catholic sense, absurd (particularly if we're going with your theory of pre-Vatican II elitism); Second, the Catholic Church recognizes and has recognized, even since the days of its (to use your favorite words) elitist, subversive, and anachronistic pre-Vatican II era, the validity of the sacraments of the Orthodox Churches (including Chrismation), as well as the validity of Baptism in the Protestant Churches (As the Protestants, by and large, don't quite buy into Transubstantiation, the Protestant forms of Communion are not universally included in the RC recognition). Furthermore, as it is the theological understanding that Christ is the primordial sacrament, it would be impossible to disregard all non-Catholic "sacraments", as the other Christian faiths share with us in the belief in Christ, whom we view as sacrament. (Sorry for the theology lesson, folks, I minored in religion) I am, however, curious about this "Catholics Come Home" media blitz you mention, as I never saw it. I'm not doubting that it happened, mind you, I just never came across it. (Perhaps it was a blitz everywhere except in NYC...) As I think on it, BadenP, you must be right; we Catholics really are problematic: Take Fr. Flanagan; now there was a first-class jerk. Same with Fr. Chisolm and Fr. O'Malley. Yeah, we're the pompous, elitist, subversive, etc., et al. But it's you, most enlighted and nondiscriminatory sir, who is the one doing the name-calling. As a certain green-blooded favorite of mine might have said, "Fascinating".

I thought it was something like that. Strikes me as kinda odd that Northern Star would resurrect the old name and then apply it to a level that is junior to its former position. Their program, though, so I guess it's their choice.

Not to get completely off-topic, but wasn't "Lions" already used by Cub Scouts, as some kind of pre-development-of-Webelo Webelo-rank-equivalent? (Edited for clarity)(This message has been edited by BklynEagle)

Oh good Lord, he's at it again.... And after I spent the time and effort to agree with you and rush to defend your good name.... Several months ago, BadenP, you predicted in another thread that the Roman Catholic Church was going to drop the Vatican II reforms and revert back to the old Tridentine Rite. Well, I'm still waiting. Actually, I mentioned your bold prediction to a priest friend of mine, who about laughed his keister off. This may come as a news flash, but they DON'T TEACH LATIN IN THE SEMINARY ANY MORE. (Caps for effect) You know what I like most about you, BadenP? It's the religious tolerance and warmth of character that you bring. Kinda like an early Cromwell. (Snark off)

An old favorite of my troop, this skit requires a Chieftain and 3 followers. Chieftain: As is the custom of our clan, we must prepare for the Ya-Putch-Ah. (To Followers) Prepare the ceremonial dance. Followers begin to dance around, occasionally shouting out. After a few moments Chieftain: I have spoken with the Wind, and I have spoken with the Stars, but it is still not yet time for Ya-Putch-Ah. Continue the ceremonial dance. Dance continues. After a few moments Chieftain: I have spoken with the Sun, and I have spoken with the Moon, yet it is still not yet time for Ya-Putch-Ah. Continue the dance. Dance continues. After a few moments Chieftain: I have spoken with the Sea, and I have spoken with the Earth. The time for Ya-Putch-Ah draws near. Come, we must prepare accordingly. Chieftain and followers form a single line. Chieftain & Followers: (Intoning) Ya-Putch-Ah (Sing) Left hand in, ya putch ya left hand out, ya putch ya left hand in, and ya shake it all about, Ya do the Hokey-Pokey and ya turn yourself around, thats what its all about.

Oh, I don't know, I thought the Inquisition was pretty neat. The soft cushions, the comfy chair, witty dialogue... "Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise...."

campcrafter, I don't disagree with the general tone of your comment, but I would ask you to change one thing: It is not a "Catholic Thang", as you have so colorfully put it; it's a whackjob thing.

Oak Tree BadenP actually writes "Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about." (Emphasis added for effect by your's truly) He doesn't say that women can't lead, but that he thinks that it's a "bad idea". I, for one, happen to agree with him (How about that? ) Not that I lack faith in a woman's ability to lead a troop, but because I think it creates some potential problems. Specifically, I'm concerned about the possibility of a helicopter mom (Not the female SM, mind you, but another female) trying to go on a camping trip and causing us real consternation by babying her brat (the Scouts with helicopter moms do seem to have an inordinate tendancy towards behavioral issues) and generally making the trip unbearable. As far as the gay and atheist issue goes, here's my take: BSA has a "Duty to God" provision - Atheist say there is no god - Therefore, they don't fulfill the requirements for membership and cannot join. Pure and simple. If you can't meet the requirements, you can't enjoy the benefits. With regards to sexuality, frankly I don't like overt displays of sexuality in public. Period. I don't like seeing a guy and a girl making out, I don't like seeing two guys making out, I frankly am not fond of seeing two pigeons making out. I'm of the opinion that ANY dicussion of a sexual nature should be verboten. As a Committee Member, I'll be the first to call for the discipline and/or dismissal of any leader who publicly engages in such discussion, regardless of whether the topic was the size of a male's organs or of a female's bust. NJCubScouter is, in my opinion, not wrong when he says that "it might be said that the BSA policy requires that leaders be of 'indeterminate sexuality'." I've been on camping trips with individuals who I've known full well are homosexuals, but who keep it to themselves. They still were quite knowledgeable about varied Scout Skills, and conducted themselves in a manner that was fully consistant with that of a mature adult. I've also been on camping trips with individuals who I've known full well are heterosexuals, but who don't shut up about it, don't know a damn thing about Scout Skills, and cannot be described as mature. Geuss who I wouldn't mind going camping with again? Keep it to yourself, and you won't have any problems with me. Addendum - Apparently BadenP beat me to the punch while I was typing.(This message has been edited by BklynEagle)

The Blancmange's qoutation of Niemller is good, but there is an inherent flaw in applying it to the current discussion. Herr Niemller was a German referencing actions which took place in Germany. The legislative behavior of Member of Parliament (MP) David Bahati is an internal political issue of Uganda. For better or worse, the gentleman in question also happens to be the Chief of the Scout Board of Uganda, but that is separate from his activities as an Ugandan MP, much like many of our respective forms of employment or daily activity (for you lucky dogs who are retired) are separate from our being Scout leaders. For BSA to offer commentary on the proposed homosexuality bill in Uganda would be about as necessary, useful, or appropriate as the Worshipful Society of Fishmongers offering commentary on the space program. If the Ugandans really don't like the bill, let them bring forth their own opposition to it. And rather than a reflective Niemller, let it be an active Bonhoeffer. But above all else, let's keep the BSA out of international politics.

Thanks for the clarification from our resident Supply Guy!

Not to put a damper on the enthusiasm over the Smokey (I happen to be in favor of them, by the way, but do not own one), but Dimemaker, are you sure what you got is the Campaign Hat or is it the Expedition Hat? I only ask because, to the best of my knowledge, Stetson was producing variations on the Expedition Hat, whereas the Campaign Hat was a BSA Supply product, and you said that the hat you bought was in the Stetson box.

With regards to the ads: The Budweiser Bridge ad, complete with the theme from "The A-Team", was pretty good, but the one ad that really surprised me was the "Late Show" Super Bowl party with Dave, Oprah, and Jay(?!?!) With regards to the Who: Since 2004's Super Bowl XXXVIII and its infamous "Wardrobe Malfunction", the NFL and their broadcast partners have been very careful in recent years to select half-time shows that don't border on risque (Though Super Bowl XLI could have been iffy, as Prince performed), and have insisted on stringent censoring (needed in Super Bowl XL in order to contain Mick Jagger's language). NO ONE is going to rip Pete Townsend's clothes off. That's all the NFL needed.

Here here! I would finally have something to put on my Expedition Hat! (I think they call it a "Brimmed Hat" these days, but when I got it it was "Expedition")

Your luck in doing JROTC during Gulf I, my luck doing JROTC during Gulf II. My fellow students weren't too bad, it was the locals who were problematic. (Plus there were a few teachers who had a nasty habit of undercutting cadets' grades) Still, it was a heckuva experience. Regards, BklynEagle, Cdt. Capt., 1BN-S1, Army JROTC (Ret.)

Look, I had just come home from the camping trip (See my earlier Jan 26 post), then I'm confronted with this new BS gimmick, and I reacted. I don't say that my reaction was right, but there it is. As far as my kids looking like Lem's kids, I didn't mean that they look enthusiastic about Scouting, I meant that they look out-of-uniform. I merely sought a common cultural touchstone to illustrate. All of you are, of course, still welcome to think of me as the posterior region of certain farm animals, if you wish.

Ah, a fellow Cadet! Tell me, coming out of NC, how many whackjobs suggested that you were a fascist, cannibal, son of a lady of the evening, homicidal maniac, etc? (No joke, I went to school in Manhattan, where all the looneys live - I've always thought that they had the right idea in "Escape from New York", with the whole giant prison concept)

Eagle732 I'm in an urban Troop. Most of the kids in my Troop come from lower-middle income families. It angers me when the boys at National go around coming up with brand new patches, books, hats, shirts, pants, socks, belts, and God only knows what else that are unnecessary, temporary, and inferior in design and/or quality, with a price tag that is grossly overblown. My Troop's families can't afford this nonsense. Just this past weekend, we were on a camping trip, and it was noticed that one of the boys was limping slightly. When asked if he was okay, it came out that the boots he was wearing were too small for his feet, but that his family couldn't afford to get him a new pair. I'd like to stress that for you: His family COULD NOT affort a new pair of boots. Now, I'm no bleeding-heart, but it strikes me as absurd that National goes around trying to make a buck on everything, and everything that they seem to come up with these days seems wildly inferior, while I've got Scouts who can't afford footwear. Scouting was designed with a number of purposes, among which was to provide city-boys with an opportunity to experience the great outdoors. It angers me when the hierarchy of the BSA goes about enacting policies that counter-act this purpose. I've spoken with many in my area, and a lot of us are in agreement: If National and the Supply Division keep going they way they are, the only way a lot of us going to be able to survive in the future (and many of us fear that it is the not-too-distant future) is by operating Troops that look like the one Lem Siddons ran in the first 3/4s of "Follow Me Boys" (i.e., non-uniform dress, etc.). Having said that, even then we can't win, because we will undoubtedly find ourselves feeling the wrath of the Paid BSA. Now, I admit that I may have wigged out a bit with my earlier commentary, and I apologize if that posting offended you, Eagle732, and anyone else who may have been made uncomfortable. But I cannot, I will not, and I do not apologize for the spirit which led to said commentary. Yours in Scouting, BklynEagle

Hey Scoutfish: taH pagh, taHbe! LLAP.

With all of the good points being brought out in this discussion, I couldn't resist the urge to mention a What-NOT-To-Do example (And a True Story, to boot) This goes back a few years... Our Scoutmaster's younger son has just signed up, having recently reached the minimum age requirements, and his first camping experience is Summer Camp. Well, Papa SM decides that he can bring the boy up to speed better than the New Scout program the Camp offers, so the only thing the boy does with camp staff is merit badges; rank requirements are gone over with Papa SM. One of the first lessons is Totin Chip, and Papa SM is so proud of his son's supposed grasp of the subject, he goes to the Trading Post and buys his son a serrated lockback. The first thing Sonny does with his new "shraded" (rough approximation of the lad's pronunciation) knife: He tries to whittle. Needless to say, he slices his finger open. But this gets better. After we've patched up Sonny's finger, Papa SM tells him to be more careful, and to try again. (For the record, while we do know that Papa SM has bought Sonny a knife, we don't know that it's serrated) Needless to say, Sonny slices his finger open again, at which point one of the ASMs (a more experienced Scouter) picks up the knife, sees that its serrated, and has to explain to Papa SM that serrated blades are not appropriate for whittling. Thankfully, you, Scoutfish, seem a brighter individual than our SM, so I'm confident that your son will retain all 10 of his fingers.