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TAHAWK

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Everything posted by TAHAWK

  1. This is a really good topic. Forget authority and rules for awile. I suspect that we are not posting absolute statements about all patrols. Probly' depends on THE patrol -- especially its leadership team, yes? Also likely depends where they were going - and when. A local county park closely shut up at 10:00 PM and heavily policed or a wilderness area in an upper Midwest winter -- or site near a teenage "makeout" center? Saturday hike or Fri-Sunday outing? AS TO RULES The more I read, the less I (think) I know. Start with the fact that in GTSS you find an
  2. This is from the module of training from Board of Review members published by the National Council. Boy Scouts of America: "Boy Scouts of America does not define God for a Scout, nor does it interpret God's rules. Those are matters, as said above, left to home and to the religious body to which the Scout belongs. The board of review does not serve as an inquisition into the correctness of a Scout's perceptions, rather it seeks to determine whether the Scout has fulfilled his duty in a way he sees fit, keeping in mind his profession of a particular faith. Discussion of a Scout's relig
  3. I dare say that most people in the UK and U.S. were far more conservative on religious (and social) matters a century ago when Scouting was founded then they are today. But if that is an issue, it can remain open. Today, deism is not a litmus test in Boy Scouting. Those that think it is need training. Those who know it is not a litmus test and yet seek to impose it on Scouts need to the placed in positions where they can do no harm.
  4. "Actually, NeilLup, if a Scout is asked at a BOR "Do you believe in God?" and answers "No, I don;t believe there is any God." then it is perfectly within the BOR's right to deny the Scout advancement. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10" Would it not, then, be appropriate to change the training materials for Boards of Review (that caution against that very question), withdraw recognition of the Buddhist religious award and, indeed, bar Buddhists -- and all other non-theists -- from membership?
  5. Every source that speaks to your question, including Councils and the US Scouting Service Project, says that a Scouter who earned the Webelos Award (vs. Webelos rank) is just as entitled to wear the Arrow of Light Knot as any Scouter who earned the Arrow of Light Award. Scouting.org, being ahistorical for the most part, does not mention the Webelos Award (if the "search" feature can be trusted). Your local Scout Shop staff needs to reconsider their position. If they do not, consider going directly to your Scout Executive. Here's a cool history of uniform knots: http://www.sa
  6. As noted elsewhere, a Buddhist Scout, wearing the religious award recognized by the B.S.A, if asked "Do you believe in God" would answer "No." I am sure there are other examples, not to mention the religions who have multiple -- even many -- Gods. A Scout "does his best" to do his duty to "God" - in current BSA speak, a "higher power." A Scout swears to be "reverent." "How do you demonstrate reverance/performance of your duty to be reverent" seem perfectly appropriate, and that approach avoids the "God" dilemma. "Do you believe in God" is not, I think, appropriate sinc
  7. One would first have to know what the Scout meant by "atheist," because "atheist," taken literally, does not disqualify a Scout from membership or for passing for any rank. Buddhism, which has a religious award that is part of the Scouting program, goes not typically include a belief in God. Buddhists are not "theists." Current training materials for Boards of Review, AFTER giving several examples of questions that expressly ask about "God," state, in part: "Discussion of a Scout's religion is very appropriate at a board of review, but it should be done with respect and appreciation
  8. KUDU POSTS: "I enjoyed the fascinating account of your Troop as a Scout. It certainly was not the Eagle mill that I envisioned when you wrote: 'The only "required" "outdoor" MB's were Camping and Cooking. In short, car campin' was just AOK for SLE. Camping Merit Badge in 2008 is far more demanding, physically and mentally, than it was in 1962 or before... Cooking MB, "required" back then, could be earned back then in your back yard (or front yard).'" RESPONSE: I spoke of the B.S.A. requirements as then in place, which you had presented as much more rigorous than today. They were
  9. Epaulets (AKA shoulder loops or straps) allow attachment of Patrol "colors" (really more practical that Patrol patches) and snap-on position insignia as used in Canada.
  10. FS Scouter, our local outlet for the BSA Supply Division elects not to carry the Jac-Shirt. I have no problem with that decision. They know best what "sells." I tried on the Lined Nylon Jacket in XL (46-48), and it fit with some to spare for a light fleece. The Jac-Shirt "XL" is said to be 12-14" larger at 58". The very helpful staff of the Scout Shop (The mamager used to be a Staffer and will be SA at our next course) puzzled over their catalogs and the charts at the Scoutstuff site, came and found me where I was working, and explained that they had no insight as to what size Jac S
  11. Bob White Posts: "You guys do realize that the BSA doesn't make these things themselves or determine the sizes, right." Totally irrelevant, Bob. The product bears the BSA brand. BSA is the retailer. Those facts give BSA the obligation, in the market place and in law, to give out accurate information about the product. And that's only holding BSA to the same standard as binds Walmart when Walmart deals with Scouters, Scouting youth, and parents of Scouting youth. One might expect better from BSA. Moreover, saying that the BSA does not "determine" the sizes for these items is a fa
  12. The BSA dos not list the Jac-Shirt as "outerwear." They list it in the "jacket" category. I mention that fact because of the size listings for the items in the BSA "jacket" category. Namely: The Commissioner's Jacket "large" is listed with a 42-44" chest. The Lined Nylon Jacket is listed with a 42-44" chest. The Varsity Scout Lined Nylon Jacket is listed with a 42-44" chest. The Jac-Shirt "large" supposedly has a 54" chest. My second oldest Jac-Shirt XL has a 50" chest. The oldest has no label, was purchased in my "salid" days, and has a 38" chest. (Was I really eve
  13. Rick, you started out in this thread implictly and expressly condemning Boy Scouting in the U.S. on the grounds that it did not strictly follow your view of BP's "Patrol System," expecially as regards the method of selecting PL's. While we disagree on certain aspects of BP's teachings, it is certainly clear that spoke of appointing PL's. That approach followed the military model of officer/Platoon Leader and nco/squad leaders -- hardly a surprise given his background. In contrast, a early as the 1916 HB, the B.S.A. allowed for election of PL's as an option. By the time I became
  14. "Sure, ideally election of PL's and SPL's is a great thing, I'm all for it, but I'm even more for having a troop of trained officers that are excited about what they do, do it well, and can teach this kind of leadership to others. It is a truly waste of scouting to have a boy fit that bill and yet because he isn't very popular and never gets a chance to try out his wings in that situation. Instead of it being a waste, more often than not, the boy simply leaves and goes elsewhere. 25 votes for a boy but he doesn't make SPL, one vote with his feet and the troop loses one of their best scouts.
  15. Check this out: http://www.forestcounty.com/camptionesta.htm
  16. "With the exception of General Shinseki and BG/Secretary White and their Armor Beret, the Army tries constanly to improve the uniform and make it better for the troops in harms way. That's unlike BSA and their uniform for Parlour Scouts." My complaints about the "Field Uniform" are hardly original. With the exception of the 100% cotton shirt, it is made of the cheapest materials. It is about unheard of anymore for fabrics to "pill up," but I have my Field Uniform to illustrate what that means. And the cut and fit of the trousers - yeech! I have nearly no butt (Age does that
  17. This thread illustrates one thing at least: a moving target is harder to hit. BP understood that too.
  18. "If one were to look carefully at effective use of leadership in an organization one would quickly find that elected personnel are there because of popularity not necessarily talent. Assigned leadership organizations are extremely tight with their leadership effectiveness and when that effectiveness wanes in the least bit someone else can step in and move the organization along once more. The problem for me seems to be in choosing between a lesson in citizenship, i.e. voting or a lesson in effective leadership, i.e. appointments. I am in a major reorganizational movement in my troo
  19. "So da question for Scouters is this: Do we get more mileage in terms of character development fully utilizing Patrol and Outdoor Methods, with youth acting independently of adults... or do we get more mileage in terms of citizenship development by giving them many direct experiences with democratic elections and their outcomes and consequences?" The Patrol Method, one of the current "Eight Methods," requires youth election of PL's and the SPL. As a Commissioned Scouter, you commit yourself, on your Honor, to following these Eight methods. "I reckon there's a lot to be said for PL e
  20. KUDU POSTS: "But first let me reply to a couple of Tahawk's points . . . ." "Actually, Baden-Powell's official rule requires the Scoutmaster to consult with either the Patrol in question or with the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders in Council) before making the appointment" REPLY: I don't believe that you did reply to my point about appointing PL's. BP said in Scouting for Boys that PL's were appointed. Where do you find his "official rule" of consultation, whatever "consult" means, and when was that "rule" promulgated? [And now that I have come to your advocacy of
  21. Ah. A vendetta. How cool. KUDU POSTS: "Google 'cognitive dissonance:' The Wikipedia account of the 1956 UFO doomsday cult is a good example of my "beef" with the "goals of Scouting." REPLY: Your use of this $5.00 term suggests that Scouting says one thing and, in your view, does another, causing you dissonance. But when I read the rest of your post, and other things you have posted in other guises, your basic complaint is that Scouting will not agree with you about what is important in Scouting. This is so much so that you propose that someone start a competing youth organiz
  22. ecmori, a number of such courses have been offered by units or districts here since the official syllabus was withdrawn.
  23. AN UPDATE Following a meeting between our Scout Executive and representatives of our district training teams, we MAY have seen the last of one-day indoor IOLS courses. In that case, I will not have the opportunity to observe such a critter in its natural environment. I contacted five other Councils. No one in those Councils had heard of such a course.
  24. Kudu, I don't fully understand your beef. I first took Scouter training in 1962. Our SM required it for new SM's. I still have my notes (now seriously brittle and tea-brown): "Scouting is a citizenship-training program wrapping in a game." "Our goal is turning out young men with the sound body, sound mind, and sound values required for them to be good citizens and good leaders of our communities, states and nation." I heard pretty much the same thing when I re-upped in 1982 and retrained in 1983, took WB for the first time in 1985, and taught Trainer Development earlier this mont
  25. I have been clear. I will try to be clearer. I did not ask about program - only a particular training issue. There is no vacuum of volunteer leadership in training in this Counsel. There is no shortage of OLS training opportunities. They are offered by different districts at various times utilizing staffers from more than one district. This is a cooperative effort of all the district training volunteers and has produced higher quality courses. There is a vacuum of volunteer-lead ONE-DAY OLS courses because the volunteers have made a decision to offer only weekend courses
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