SSScout

I made a copy of the article and, with the SM's permission, read some of it to the boys at the end of our last Troop meeting. Talked about then and now. Home made equipment. No cell phones. Talked about Patrol activities. About adult support of doing what the boys would like to do. Actually got a small conversation going with a couple of the boys and their dads. Hike the WHOLE AT? Three months? ummm... We'll see.

Advancement is recognized and awards made as the year progresses. Some boys and families do it quickly, some slower. B&G is for celebrating the fact that we are Cubs. It is a PARTY. Theme (if desired) , decorations (if possible), suitably respectful gathering and opening ( I was invited to a Pack B&G as their UC, and SURPRISE was asked to give the grace, which I did...), good food (catered or served if affordable, pot luck if desired), entertainment (OA danceteam, Scales and Tales, slide show, magician, Den skits, story teller,etc.), some small awards and acknowledgements ( but not the whole Pack. No one should be expected to have maxed out their rank by February), suitably respectful closing. All in 1 1/2 or 2 hrs max. Our Pack did advancement and awards at each Pack meeting. The last big thing was the April or May picnic, Web crossover was reserved for that Pack meeting. OA danceteam came and did a real flaming arrow ceremony, really wowed'em. Please try and convince the Pack leadership to NOT end the Cub year in February.

"the Scouts permit plaintiffs to make use of Camp Balboa and the Mission Bay Park Youth Aquatic Center" Yep. makes sense to me. If you want your son to participate in the CSDC at the park BSA leases for $4000. a week, your son must join the Cub Scouts. Otherwise, you (and your son) may use the rest of the park or come back when the camp is devoid of scouts. "but do not allow them to be members of their organization and participate in the activities conducted at the camps for members," Berzon wrote. I've known more than a couple of folks that know (for one reason or another) that they wouldn't fit in Scouting. Self selecting. This sounds like the same thing. The plantifs KNOW they wouldn't fit and are making damn sure everyone else knows it too. Nope. Gotta meet the membership requirements. Believe in God/higherpower/something and not make sexually overt comments to our youth members. Your sexual orientation is not of interest. If you don't mention it, it won't come up in conversation. Sexually promiscuous and inappropriately behaving adults are not welcome, be they homo, hetero, bi or any other persuasion. So it still sounds like " Since BSA controls parts of the park due to their up til now perfectly legal lease arrangement I can't use the park because I find the BSA offensive and therefore I can't come near the park to use it so it's the BSA's fault that I can't use it even tho no one has said I can't use it because I haen't asked to use it and they haven't responded to my non-existant request to use it." Now, if the REAL issue is that the BSA reserves too much of the park to warrant such a small lease fee, perhaps the "fair market " value would be a more appropriate debating topic. A balancing act. Social benefit versus market value versus public access versus private organization versus... Maybe the BSA could sublease it to the LDS or Catholic Charities or Boys Club or...ummm. That about right?

Haven't had this much fun since high school debate team... Evmori: exactly so. MlR: I find much to agree with you: Private discriminatory clubs should not be given exceptional exclusive use of public facilities. However, I don't see where anyone has proven that the BSA has denied anyone reasonable physical access or use of the facilities that (so far) have been legally leased to them. Can you, therfore, please quote us the part of the decision that defines the plantif's right to legal standing (ie, the legal basis for their right to sue the defendants) so as to show how they claim to have been injured? How the court sees (and agrees) their belief that they have indeed been injured? And therefore have a right to prove their injury before the court and claim recompense? How bad could chitlin making be, anyway?

No adult leaders. Six boys. 2000 miles. Only contact when they met the truck? One Truck followed 'em thru the whole trek? Wore out his LLBean shoes (hope he got'em resoled. Even back then, I think they were guarnteed for life). Maps? Compass? Wow. Eagle732: M4 Plywood backboard? I replaced my canvas back strap with a mesh nylon one, used it on thru my Scout career. Even screwed on hinges on the bottom and created a hip belt for it. Troop meeting tonite. Think I'll ask if I can read this to the boys for closing.(This message has been edited by SSScout)

Been busy elsewhere. Just read thru this thread. The problem is well known if not consciously acknowledged. Due to a gravitational anomaly and the third premise of the General Theory of Relativity and cotrary to general belief, there is really only 8 weekends in a calendar year. I can testify to this. A single example:: Back in April of 2008, I conferred with the Program Chair of our District. We perused the published Council and District and school calenders. We agreed on a date for an activity I was to lead in 2009. Nothing on that date to conflict. Nothing. Penned it in. After our "redistricting" in June, (see another thread), we have had several planning/scheduling meetings (called, I kid you not, 'calendering'). At last saturday morning's meeting, our new Program Chair (third in a year) listed all the claimed activities and organized them on the blackboard by genre (Cubs, training, etc.) and by date. Sonofagun, the weekend of my activity now had FIVE other activities listed. All worthy things to do. We then scratched our collective heads and realized that most of the listed activities were, indeed, collected around only 8 or 9 weekends.For Scout purposes, it was like the rest of the year didn't exist. Council? District? Old traditional "we've always done it then" stuff, out of 6 Old Districts, we now have ONE mega district. And 4 or 5 "sub areas"; so we may have 3 camporees in October, and 2 Klondike Derbies in January and multiple IOLS in April. This is looked on as a good thing in many respects, and egos need to be salved. Communicate better and you may want to be glad for the multiple opportunities Like the man said, ya pays yer money and takes yer cherce.

Hey Hal, so what does your Troop do with all the ribbons? Toss'em out? Stuff'em in a box in someones basement? Lose 'em? Stick'em to a display board and put'em up at CoH every so often? I know our 50 year old Troop doesn't have all of ours on the flag staff. And I truly don't know where they are.

Perhaps I am not fully cognizent of the conditions that led to this case and it's decision. Were the plantifs DENIED access to the "public facilities", either by gvmnt authorities or by agents of the BSA? Or did the plantifs decide PERSONALLY that they could not bear to utilize the "facilities" because of the taint of BSA leasing? Therein lies the inappropriateness of the Parks/bus analogy. My understanding is that the plantifs CHOSE not to even try to use the facilities. Ms Parks was DENIED use of the bus by the guvmnt and the bus authority. If the KKK owned and operated the bus system and Ms Parks and her family and friends were allowed full use of the bus system, we might not be having this conversation. If, however, Ms Parks refused to even attempt to board the KKK bus line, because she was offended by the KKK's avowed value system, then we still might not be having this conversation because the courts would have politely laughed at her attempt to sue the KKK bus system when she chose not to ride it. But she DID choose to ride it,and she WAS denied full access to it's service, and it did not matter WHO owned the bus system. So why does it matter WHO leased the facilities? How were the Plantifs denied access and use? ((image: driving a bus with a bed sheet over your head...))

Certainly the CG and AqC start out as "public". But if those areas are "leased", then what are the conditions of the lease? If the campground and aquatic center is "public" then they are not leased as a "private" area. Where is the problem? Does the path to the Campground or aquatic center pass THRU the BSA leased area (as they do in our mentioned park)? The legal decision as I read it does not hinge on what is PUBLIC versus PRIVATE, but on what the plaintifs view as being too distasteful to approach, ie Boy Scouts. The plaintifs self limit their approach because proximity to Boy Scouts is, to them, distasteful. It's as if a chitlin packing plant leased the campground and moved it's packing operations there in temporary tents and I decide the (ahem) aroma is too distasteful for me to approach in my daily jog. Do I reroute or do I sue the b*st*rds for limiting my activities? Can the guvmnt legally lease the campground, or did it? If the chitlin plant is a bad choice for leasing to, then those county commissioners ain't gonna get re-elected. But if the fed court rules that mere opinion is sufficient to show unreasonable limitation of use, well...

Geewillikers, MLR, if they leased it for abuck ayear or (in our case) $4000 a week, it is leased. If the Guvmnt later thinks a mistake was made, then let the lawyers duke it out and correct it. But if it is LEASED and use of the property CONTRACTED, then my last post stands as written. The Leasee has use of the property, as described in the appropriate documents (I did not see them attached). Therefore, ipso facto, in re proviso and ergo sum, the public needs to consider their limitations and access. Not whether they are offended merely by the organization's professed membership requirements. If the leasing agreement is written too broadly or too limiting, let someone decide that and fairly decide what, in a democratic society, is fair to the reasonable person. If the "public facilities" are legally leased for a "private leasee" then the problem should hinge on what is truly "public" and what is "private" as a result. If Mr. & Mrs. Hernandez "rent" a pavillion for their daughter's quinceanos, then you can't expect Ms Slovikosky to insist on sunbathing next to it. For the duration of the contract, it is NOT "public facilities", despite Ms Slovikosky's pronounced offense at all the hispanic brouhaha... Ha?(This message has been edited by SSScout)

Friend Leroy: I believe you have made my point. Ms Parks was seeking equal use of a public utility, tho it might 've been privately owned, still ostensively a public utility. The leasing of a service or property, be it privately or publicly owned allows the leasee (contract definitions allowing) particular use of that property or service. Restaurants are closed to the public when rented for private parties. Chartered buses are not a "public conveyance". When the BSA rents a piece of the park, the general public cannot use that part of the park. We apologize , but the Korean Baptist Church cannot just show up and expect to be able to set up a volley ball net where we already have an archery range. Mr. and Missus Smith may feel put out when they arrive and the pavillion they hoped would be available for their kids birthday party is full of Cub Scouts tying knots, but hey, we paid our fee and made the reservation months before. So the Rockville Russian Society comes and uses the boat house for their polka party, the Cubs loved the loud music. We use what we rented. Folks can still walk by and thru to other park areas. If the Washington Ethical Society calls and reserves the daytime park for a week and pays the $4,000. fee, we won't feel left out. Just our fault for not getting there first, us Scout folks will just have to pick a different week or park. WES: Have fun, play fair and don't eat too many chilli dogs. I still don't see where the decision is about lack of access to the park. It APPEARS to be about taking offense at who is using the park, not about lack of access. So, if this ruling is allowed to stand, and if I took umbrage at the ideas promulgated by the Washington Ethical Society (local athiest group. Nice people, by the way), and if the WES leased out a piece of the park, and if I decided the WES was so ubnoxious that I could not even walk by that part of the park wherein the WES held sway, and I was so inclined, I could SUE the WES for limiting my use of the park? And seek monetary compensation? Damages? Even when there was no other physical limitation of use? Have I got that all correct?

Goodgoogamooga... NCAC has a bunch of stuff on the drawing board, around the time of the NJambo. Mebbe pipe dreams, but these were announced at a recent commish meeting: Mini Jambo down at Goshen Scout res., Parade down Pennsylvania Ave. Super Camporee on the mall or Wash. Monument grounds. Some sort of Scout reunion of Scout personages. And some other stuff I didn't include in my notes. Was Obama a Scout?

Rosa Parks was not seeking to ride a privately chartered bus. She was seeking to use a publicly provided utility. Yes, my park is in Maryland, but the California court decision is a Federal Law Decision and will, therefor, provide precedent in all 50 states. Hence my query, duh. My reading of the provided sources indicates the court is allowing legal standing to the idea of injury thru non-injurious offense. Name calling is generally not a sueable offense, except in extreme cases, am I correct? Name calling to the point of inciting a riot, for instance. But if purely an idea or a quality of belonging (membership?) is found "offensive", then, by this ruling, in far less than extreme cases, the mere declaration of being "offended" can be grounds for seeking recompense (how much is an insult worth?). In my park, we go to lengths to assure the public has access to that part of the park that the CSDC is not actually using. And we make sure that the public is aware that our leased part of the park is brimming with overactive, loud Cub Scouts. And yes, the park people get complaints about "limiting use of OUR parks" from folks. But these complaints are no different than the ones they receive about the reserved use by Locheed Martin, or the County Rec Department, or the State Police (when they close off the park for rescue dog training. You wanna jog past a dozen German Shepards?), or the First XYZ Church Christian school Day Camp. All could be offensive to someone, but all have reserved the park in their turn and paid the appropriate fee. So the court case is certainly not really about Park Use. Is it?

For bucoo bucks, BSA leases a large section of the local park (5 picnic pavillions, the sport field, the "lower woods area", the "middle woods area" and the boat house pavillion for our CSDC. Upwards of 200 Cub Scouts swarm over the area, but the park people insist we cannot impede the publics use of the rest of the park. John and Mary Q. Public walk around and thru the camp all day. We have even had joggers run THRU the roped off archery range. So is this part of this decision?

It needs to be remembered that the US flag folding system is traditional and was created way after the creation of the flags design. The flags proportions just happen to lend themselves to this particular system. The scripts quoted above came after that. As is noted in the last reference, it's authorship is unknown and its religious references maybe inappropriate if used during an "official" government ceremony. I have seen/heard several scripts using the flag folding as a prompting means. Various purposes, and to varying success. I've even seen/heard one specific to Scouting purpose and history. Once, never again. It's almost as if folks can't stand a little respectful silence and have to find an "appropriate" way to fill that silence. I am reminded of the country western song by Tex Ritter and Wink Martindale (among others) called The Deck of Cards, where a soldier explains how the deck of playing cards reminds him of the Bible. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deck_Of_Cards If the folds remind you of important things, so be it. But understand that the folds were there first and the important things will be there without the folds. Lots of good discussion in this forum and webwise. Have fun.

Bizarre. Let us assume (for discussion sake) that the company that is the prime contractor for making nuclear warheads rents out a public park pavillion for a corporate picnic. If I find the creation of nuclear warheads offensive, would I then be able to SUE in court to prevent the company from utilizing a public park? Even tho I have not been prevented from using the park or (in my turn) reserving or renting the same pavillion? What is the limiting factor here?

Most excellent. Goes to show how important marketing and labeling is. The food is tasty because we say it is! Ha!

Go Hee Fat Choy... I hope y'all can see the parallels in the story I'm about to relate. Once upon a time, Cub son and I attended our first Parent /son overnight, ("Son and One") sponsored by the Council. It was held at an Izaac Walton League property. We were new and didn't know what to expect, but I had Scout experience and, I guess, knew what I WANTED to expect... Saturday morn thru sunday morn. Council provided lunch and dinner and breakfast and activities. Okay until Sat. night. Rain threatened. Along the way, I had made the acquaintance of some other Scout dads and moms. We expected a campfire, but none appeared to be in the offing. Found one of the (so I thought) organizers (turned out later he was a DE from a neighboring District. Didn't know what that was back then) and asked. He was sitting in the lodge, strumming a guitar. He said "I don't know. Not in charge of that". Well, who is? Don't know, strum, strum. I went to my Scout acquaintances and we talked. We walked thru camp and talked to others. Some found the campfire barrel, some found some firewood, some talked about skits and cheers and ghost stories. Two of us became MCs. We had a campfire. Later that night it poured down rain. Some of us slept in the lodge, some in cars. Some in properly pitched and sealed tents. We learned to work together rather than just trusting to the "powers that be". I still see occassionally one or two of those Scout moms and dads at other events. To my knowledge, nothing was ever said about the S&O campfire that was not "officially" held.

Pish-tush, clap-trap and jimmerjammer... Much ado about lots of stuff. She asked for help/advice and , as usual, got alot of the same from many knowledgeable folks. I have no doubt she will (1) get trained (in Feb.) (2) get lots of assistance (from the folks that recruuited her) (3) She will yell and scream if she doesn't get it (!). Sounds like her District?Council has the resources available even if they weren't tapped last year. She will tap them. Official requirements/guidelines/manuals not withstanding, there's nothing like personal experience as a guide (within OFFICIAL guidelines, of course). Listen to the Spirit of Scouting (whatever that is) and your heart and you'll not go too far wrong. YiS from a recent CSDC FAEE.

SctDad: Merry Christmas... Sounds like you are already letting the parents choose THEIR camp meals... Just like at home... a balance of what the Cubs WILL eat (let'em choose?) and what's nutritious and worth eating (parents choose). Reference Bill Cosby's breakfast routine ("read the ingredients on the box! Chocolate Cake! Eggs! That's good! Flour! Milk! Flour's good! Breakfast food!") but not all cake... Convince the parents that THEY need to show cooperation, and eat with the Cubs. Can't go out to Tom and Ray's and order crabcakes to go. Our hard choices have involved religious requirements (vegetarian vs omnivorous) rather than picky eaters. But parents can be picky too, I guess? Boy Scouts, on the other hand, need guidance too. General camp food Troop rules: no soda pop, no donuts or pastry for breakfast, vegetables and or fruit at lunch and dinner, but still can't forcibly make'm eat it. Bon Apetit!

Balderdash, folderol and poppycock. German hard salami, too. BW: We usually depend on you to quote chapter and verse to us. And truly, your expertise is encyclopedic. But I must defer to my significant other, who is an experienced bookkeeperslashaccountant. She says that an organizationslashgroup to whom the IRS has issued a 501©(3) status is a quote charity unquote. Any arm of the BSA is therefor included. She knows of no defined difference between a quote charity unquote and a quote not for profit charitable organization unquote. If the Scout unit is sponsoredslashchartered by a non-profit 501©(3), then they are included under their CO. I frankly don't know of any Scout unit chartered by a for profit organization, but it is possible, I suppose. Would that confuse the issue, I suppose so. When the public says to us "no thank you, we don't eat popcorn, but here's something for your Scouts" and hands me a twenty, I respond "thank you, and you have a good day, ma'am!" and make sure the money goes in our Troop's Camper Fund.

Thank you BW: If one is doing a Scouty thing (traveling to camp, service project for CO, selling popcorn or donuts or xmas trees for the Troop or Pack, staffing Daycamp, whatever) wear the uniform. And the uni is not only the "class A" field uni, it is whatever is defined by the authority and circumstance. Campshirt and shorts is the uni. Full dress and sash is the uni. Troop sweats is the uni. "STAFF" shirt and shorts is the uni. But if it is NOT a Scouty activity, and wearing the uni would make it appear so, then don't wear it. Political canvassing. Ringing the bell for the Salvation Army. Soliciting funds for Habitat for Humanity. Directing parking at the High School Concert. Raising money for the band? wear the BAND uni. Do it because it is worthy of your support, but go in civies. GREY AREA::: District is asked to help volunteer at Community Festival: Color Guard duty, message running, setup, breakdown, traffic directing, bundle carrying. Uniform activity? As a group is invited, and no money is involved, I would say yes. Here, it is obvious that a service is being done and not soliciting. Judge accordingly, ask the District/Council folks for advice.

CSDC Fundraiser... Great idea. Check on the local banks, and businesses. All of them like to have something like this to point to for "Community Awareness" PR. We had a generous local business underwrite our CSDC Park Fees. Made our camp budget look awhole lot better. How did we get that? Talked it up at Roundtable, a Scoutleader went to his boss who went to his boss who went to THE boss and he went to the Board of Directors who were considering their upcoming year charitable contributions. Networking and awareness. Keep the conversation going. Someone knows somebody who has a cousin who can help. Don't forget King Arhur, Monty Python & the Holy Grail, etc. Cardboard Box horses and foam tube lances for jousting (which by-the-by, is the Maryland State Sport). Found a Professional Archer who did a wonderful demo for us. Have fun. (bumdadabumbumbum...We're knights of the round table, we dance when ere we're able and imitate Clark Gable...)

We really do need a seperate Forum section to discuss the R word. As a Woodbadge project, I undertook to get the Houses of Worship within a two mile radius of our local town center to hold open houses (for lack of a better term) all on the same weekend, for Scouts to visit (and earn a patch, natch!). I found no fewer than 17 HoW within that two mile radius, representing at least twelve defined faiths. Twelve agreed to the idea, but an unfortunate set of circumstances led to no one attending. It is scheduled again for a weekend this coming spring. Now, some of these HoW sponsor Scout units, and many found the idea interesting. A few actively said no to my invitation, some never responded. But the ones that said yes all were interested in folks (not just Scouts) knowing about THEIR form of faith and seemed to welcome being compared to others. A Scouts "Duty to God" is not the Scoutleaders business to define. It is, however, the Scouleaders business to encourage. To remind. To stir up. But it is the Scout's (and his family's) business to do the defining. All the Scout leader can do is to listen and nod his head when the Scout talks about it. And they will, if you invite it. Good campfire stuff. Devout? Wonderful, good, however expressed. Agnostic? Searching? Questioning? Very good, I would not expect any young person to have fully and irrevocably found and developed their faith. I know my kids haven't. Athiest claim? See other Forum threads. I'll not comment here. I earned G&C from the UMC my Troop was sponsored by, but my family didn't attend. Maybe that was just lipservice, or my academic overachieving, I don't know. Took me more than a few years to figure out where God wanted me. I certainly don't regret the G&C, but I'm not Methodist today. I would not expect any Scout leader to put a guilt trip on a Scout about his faith or lack thereof. But reminding, poking, proding, sure. I know my son and daughter have come to expect it. Don't want to dissapoint them. Now, y'all go home to your kith and kin and have a good Christ's Birthday, y'hear? (This message has been edited by SSScout)

All you Scout Leaders need to S T O P SHOW: Point out, name things as you go along, talk about SEEING rather than merely LOOKING. Demonstrate that skill. Help them to realize your enthusiasm. TEACH: As a Leader (adult or otherwise), by definition you have superior knowledge. Impart it. Gently allow the Scout to gain from your experience, not by pounding it in but by oozing it out for him to soak up. OBSERVE: Watch the Scout. Can he use the new knowledge? Is there an "aha!" for him? Can you help him to improve his skill or recognition? Carefully point out how he can improve. Allow him to take pride in his new skill or knowledge. PRACTICE: Give your Scout opportunities to try out his abilities, to gain better utility at the skill. Take him out. Allow him to make mistakes and find out what happens (G2SS in place!). THEN comes the test, passing the requirement is LAST in the process. And always, ALWAYS, the Scout must pass the requirement BY SOMEONE'S JUDGEMENT. Somebody besides the Scout "signs off" on it, yes? And after all, the Scout is gonna know if HE really passed it or not, anyway, isn't he? Yeah, he can read the book and practice on his own. It is possible and done all the time, but then why have Senior Scouts or Scoutmasters or Merit Badge Counsellors? The book can give the Scout some of what he needs, but that's not what I think Scoutings about. I fear the previous discussion has left out THAT part of the equation in the rush.