SR540Beaver

Jon, Welcome to the forums. The Transcontinental Council has a website at http://www.tac-bsa.org/. It appears that Scotland falls under the Mayflower District and there is a Troop 248 in Aberdeen. The District Executive's phone number and e-mail address are listed on the district page. He can tell you if there are other active BSA units in Scotland.

Acco, Wouldn't that be hazing?

Eagle69, I've not taken the opportunity to look at the latest copy of Boy's Life. Could you elaborate on the two columnist's ideas for things to do to new scouts? Was it tricks to play on them like was already being done or ideas of things to do WITH new scouts to make them feel included? Ed, Being singled out has nothing to do with hazing. Hazing is hazing regardless of the number of people being hazed.

t158sm, Your boys have spoken, let them vote with their feet. There is a lot of competition between scout camps and just because a certain camp is "the council camp" is not enough incentive to make you support it if it is poorly run. All it takes is one bad summer for a camp to lose its reputation and multiple years to get it back. Slippery Falls where Lynda went is my council's camp. Our troop has not been there in more than 5 years because back then, the troop didn't like it. I went there in 2004 with a different troop and didn't care for it much myself. Evidently, they have turned things around according to Lynda. I'm glad to hear it, but it is still way down the list of camps our boys are willing to consider. I know of another large troop in our council who has not attended Slip in a decade. You need to let the council folks know what you feel is wrong with the camp and let them know that you will probably be looking for higher quality next year if they can't give you assurances that things will change.

I did the saying from memory and just knew I left something out. Sure enough, I did. Here it is again. Watch your thoughts, they become your words, Watch your words, they become your actions, Watch your actions, they become your habits, Watch your habits, they become your character, Watch your character, for it will become your destiny. I left out habits.

Leave it up to one of those danged Buffalos to go and get their necker dirty by wallowing. We Beavers stay clean. I've not needed to clean mine.....yet, so I'll be interested in the suggestions you get.

Actually, I AM watching my diet and it is un-becoming my waist. 12.6 lbs in the past 4 weeks.

The E. Coli is caused by that darned global warming I tell ya!!!

I got this from my Weight Watchers meeting this week and thought I'd pass it on. Watch your thoughts, they become your words, Watch your words, they become your actions, Watch your actions, they become your character, Watch your character, for it will become your destiny. You can expand on this by explaining how living the oath and law can influence your thoughts and eventually your destiny.

Signed

"To claim that the same program can appeal to boys 11-17 is a bit of a stretch. Keep in mind that you are speaking of boys in elementary school, middle school, and high school, all in the same group. I think ANY scoutleader who has been successful in keeping his old boys in the troop is doing something different for those older boys to appeal to them and keep them in (more then just demanding they have to stay and lead the younger kids). At a minimum, he is making use of a Venture Patrol or something along those lines." No, we are just boy led and strive to develop a strong sense of community and service. We do a high adventure trip each year, but it is open to scouts who are First Class and 13 by the beginning of the year. My 13 year old son leaves for Northern Tier with two crews from the troop tomorrow morning at 7:00 AM. There are 15 and 16 year olds going as well. Last year he went to Jamboree at 12. We have invested in climbing equipment and do climbing campouts. Everyone from our 10.5 year old new scouts to our 17 year olds climb. Sure, at times we do different things for different ages. During skill presentation at troop meetings, we split the new scout patrol out for a seperate skill program because their skill needs are far different than the older (12-17) scouts. Think of your church youth program. While each Sunday School (Patrol)class may do there own activities from time to time, the total youth group participates in the same program over all. I don't know of a Youth Minisiter who runs two totally seperate programs for the Jr high and Sr High crowds. week night Bible study, summer camp, choir trips, mission trips, etc. are for the whole youth group.

OGE, Good question. I think it is much like the Southern Baptist (and probably many other denominations) approach. About the time you get your Sunday School class grown to a decent size and everyone feels comfortable with each other and the teacher, the Minister of Education comes along and announces that they are splitting the class in half. Kind of like cells dividing. The thought is that growth will become stagnant at a certain point and in order to keep growing, you must split into smaller groups and continue to grow. Churches do the same thing by starting "missions" near the new housing addition in town. They support it until it grows into a full fledged self supporting church of it's own where no church existed before. Look at it as survival of the species. You have to multiply to continue existing in a meaningful way. The first troop we joined was one that had not really done much recruiting in a number of years and we slowly discovered that there desire was to be a social club for the older boys. We did the DE's job for him and started our own troop.

Laura, I have a few predictions. Jon will come home much more mature. He might even pick up after himself and be more self motivated to do tasks he is responsible for. He won't take things for granted as much as he used to. Also, he will be excited about returning next year to do it all again. The Camp Director job is pretty much a 24/7 job. A pretty thankless job at that. I e-mailed a camp director a couple of weeks ago with questions about his camp because we are doing research into different camps to attend next year. He apologized for it taking so long to reply due to his responsibilities at camp. I e-mailed back that I understood and thanked him for taking the time to respond. Camp directors start working on enxt year when summer camp shuts down. They are responsible for EVERYTHING. Staff, angry SM's, snakes under platforms, strangers wandering thru camp, missing kids, plumbing problems, discipline problems, etc., etc., etc. I know you already know that and you are just being a momma bear. That is your job. I bet my predictions hold though!

Guys, I'm telling you, it just isn't that hard. We still have a few servicable tents that are actually older than most of our boys. We write the date in magic marker on both the tent and rainfly when it goes into service. We've had to patch holes, replace zippers and poles, but we have some tents from the mid to late 80's.

Laura, All I know about camp staff is what I see when I go to camp. What I see are dedicated kids who are very over-worked and very under-paid. What I also see are kids who love what they are doing, will sign up again next year and will be telling their own kids years from now how great it was to be a staffer. Time always has a way of enhancing the good memories and lightening the bad. But the bad memories will become points of pride too. Many camps operate as cheaply as possible. I do agree that they need to give them at the very least an hour of free time per day and extra food treats.

I posted a portion of this letter in a different thread a week or so ago. The camp we attended this year had wireless access at the admin building. Each night, our camp SM would pull his van up outside the building and send out an e-mail dispatch via his laptop to the parents back home. This was his last e-mail from Friday night. Scout Parents, This will be my last transmission from this outpost here at Camp Tom Hale. We not only find this location becoming increasingly more hostile we feel we have taken advantage of all this location has to offer. You may ask how could your location be so hostile you need to depart for the flatlands of Oklahoma City? We arrived here at Tom Hale with an outstanding group of Scouts. Although they were well trained they still needed some improvements in knife handling, personal hydration, tent maintenance, and troop formation protocols. WE have improved in all those areas. But we have just been informed almost 700 new, untrained, rough-around-the edges scouts will arrive here on Sunday - so we need to evacuate to make room for them so they will not contaminate our outstanding troop. This morning before dawn a number of our scouts led by one adult leader, Jack (Ironman) Sprat made a recon run by swimming one mile looking for a safe and quick way out. Those brave souls were Bill (Webbed Feet) Smith, Tom (The Unflappable) Brown, Harry (Always Cool) White, Joe (The Gentleman) Black, Sam (The Surfer) Green, Mack (Leatherneck) Jones and John (Always Ready) Doe. They will be honored for their heroism with the award of the coveted mile swim patch. In addition, this morning at dawn one additional scout Tim (Hiking Man) Roe led by adult Ed (Tree Hugger) Johnson reconnoitered another possible escape route over Bohannon Peak on an 11.5 mile hike. They too will be honored for their heroism. The elements even played against the "Hiking Man" in his prep for his mission. Having borrowed some "Gold Bond Medicated Powder from Scoutmaster Lumpus, and being unaware of its "cooling, medicating" action on those places where we tend to chafe, he came out of the shower in agony as he was "on-fire" (his words) in that most sensitive area. He was upset that the adult leaders were unable to sympathize since as old men we love that cooling medication action. But he persevered and embarked on his mission. We have completed numerous merit badges, possibly over 100, and most of our new scouts have earned or almost earned their next rank. In addition we have a visiting scout who did earn 2nd class. So there is no reason to stay and brave the hot days, attacking raccoons and a sleepwalking disorder brought on by the cool clear night air. We have decided, with the help of reinforcing drivers, we will depart this paradise for home at approximately 9:30 AM tomorrow after a breakfast of Belgian Waffles. We expect to arrive in OKC at approximately 3:30 PM. We will have tons of laundry and will need a lot of tender loving care after our ordeal. See ya tomorrow. Scoutmaster Lumpus

Barry, Our two crews leave for Northern Tier this Friday at 7:00 AM while the old Beav twiddles his thumbs back in OKC and has to use his imagination when thinking about what the little Beav is up to. Thanks for the offer of dry bags earlier. We ended up purchasing a couple with the thought that they would be put to further use later on. Speaking of lost gear, he is taking dad's Petzl headlamp as his has mysteriously disappeared.

In our troop, each patrol has their own gear and everything....and I do mean EVERYTHING is color coded. If the Ravens have the Wolves hammer, everyone knows it. Still, stuff goes missing from time to time. One of our rules (yes I know, we are evil) is that no one leaves....and I mean NO ONE leaves until all gear is unloaded and stowed away after a camp out. The troop/gear trailer is unloaded and gear stowed before the personal gear trailer is even unlocked for unloading. If it is sunny and dry when we get back from a camp out, we often set the tents up in the church parking lot to dry. Here in Oklahoma where all of the trees grow sideways due to gale force winds (only a slight exageration), drying a tent only takes a few minutes. Then we roll them up and stow them. If it has been a long trip back and everyone is tired or the sun and wind are not cooperating, the patrol tents are checked out to members within the patrol to take home and dry. A list is made by the youth QM who turns it into the adult QM. The scout must find the QM when they bring the tent back and get signed off as having returned it. Does it work perfectly? No. Does it work PDG (pretty darned good)? Yes.

Steve, Great BWCA pics. My son leaves a week from today for Sommers and it is nice to get to see some pictures of where he will be.

GOLD BOND POWDER Off topic, but the subject of Gold Bond reminded me of the last e-mail dispatch our summer camp Scoutmaster sent to the parents. Our SM is taking two crews to Northern Tier next week, so he couldn't attend summer camp for the full week this summer and one of our ASM's served as camp SM. He is an old Air Force officer. Here is his Gold Bond story. Names have been changed to protect the innocent. "In addition this morning at dawn one additional scout John (Hiking Man) Doe led by Bill (Tree Hugger) Smith reconoitered another possible escape route over Bohannon Peak on an 11.5 mile hike. They to will be honored for their heroism. The elements even played against the "Hiking Man" in his prep for his mission. Having borrowed some "Gold Bond Medicated Powder from the SM, and being unaware of its "cooling, medicating" action on those places where we tend to chafe - he came out of the shower in agony as he was "on-fire" (his words) in that most sensitive area. He was upset the adult leaders were unable to sympathize since as old men we love that cooling medication action. But he perservered and embarked on his mission."

I'm looking forward to having my very own "Star Trek" holodeck.....not just virtual reality television, a real honest to gosh holodeck. Hey, a guy can wish! Every troop and every scout can "attend" Philmont as often as they like. If they get homesick, they can just pause the program and go to their room and resume it later.

"There is a lot more to Venturing then that. The Boy Scout program was designed for boys 11-13. Venturing was designed for older youth (14-21). It's about giving the youth a program appropriate for their age/interest." Not true. The Boy Scout program is designed for boys 11-18. The question is how well a unit implements the program for boys 14 and above? The fact that BSA offers a competing program doesn't help. I don't say that as a slam against Venturing. It is a fine program in its own right. It is just that I once worked for a company that decided to offer an alternative product that competed with our traditional product and we ended up robbing Peter to pay Paul due to contractual obligations. The alternative product generated about a tenth of the revenue the traditional product did. The company no longer exists. You are correct about not knowing the Venturing program as we are just birthing ours. Most of what I know comes from reading materials from BSA and discussions here. It seems that a good number of people have difficulty wrapping their minds around the program. All I'm saying is that there is no reason that units can't offer a well rounded Boy Scout program that meets the needs of the boys regardless of age. Boy Scouts is not designed to dead end at 13, even if some people run their units that way.

emb021, So, I guess we can put you down in the adult led column? The vision Statement of the BSA is: The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. In the future Scouting will continue to * Offer young people responsible fun and adventure; * Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law; * Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership; * Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program. In order to train young people in citizenship, service and leadership we have a continuim of older boys giving back to the troop just as the older boys before them gave back when they were new scouts. Leadership development takes time, experience and maturity that begins at 11 thru 13, but bears its best fruit at 14 and beyond. Does that mean you can't offer responsible fun and adventure to older scouts? No. But if you run them thru a program from 11 to 13 and expect them to lead themselves without examples to go by....well, you have an additional 3 year Webelos program that will end up being mostly adult led. It is not an either/or situation. Both can exist in the same program if run properly. What does a crew offer that a troop can't. Lack of the patrol method. Gets you away from younger boys. Allows for coed. Less emphasis on advancement. Crew created uniform. Handguns. Are there activities that a crew can do that older boys in a boy led troop couldn't plan and do? No. In fact, if the crew provides service to packs and troops, how is that different than expecting older boys in the troop to serve younger boys?

"Is there any reason a troop cannot have an effective PLC with an age group of 14 - 15 year olds?" In general, maturity and experience. Plus, if you have the 16 and 17 year old scouts leaving the troop to join the crew, trust me, the 14 and 15 year olds will be following right on the heels of the cool older guys. That leaves you with a troop of 11 - 13 year olds with no older boys to serve as examples of leadership. Are there mature 11 - 13 year olds. Sure there are, my son is a good example of a mature 13 year old. Is he ready to be the SPL of a troop of 63 scouts. No. He was in fact the SPL of our old defunct troop of ten boys when he was 12. The troop was made up of 11 and 12 year olds. He did as good of a job as possible for a 12 year old with a lot of support from "adults". There is a reason the troop is defunct.....no older boy leadership. The boys kept wanting to fall back into a Webelos mode despite our training efforts. Our troop has just started up a crew because we had a good deal of interest from older scouts and scout families with daughters asking for it. We have cussed and discussed all of the pros and cons for the troop. Time will tell how things will go. Obviously, one of the great concerns is losing older boys. The idea is that anyone outside the troop can join with no obligation to the troop. However, a boy joining from the troop must maintain his membership and activity in the troop with the crew as a side venture.....no pun intended. Then the idea was floated that if a boy decides to "quit" the troop in order to join the crew and sidestep the above rule, there will be an 18 month waiting period for joining the crew. My question all along has been how do you enforce something like this? The crew is currently made up of 4 boys and 4 girls and they are developing their own calendar....but will on occasion be camping with the troop. They will also borrow troop gear until they can raise funds to buy their own gear. Troop high adventure trips and summer camps that offer coed opportunities will be open to the crew. I really prefer the idea of crews being chartered independently of a troop because of all of the issues (plus many more) that I've listed. Our SM is also the Crew Advisor, so he is wearing two hats. On one hand, he wants to grow a successful crew, but does not want to destroy a highly successful boy led troop that has existed for 45 years. We have our work cut out for us.

I for one do not buy the argument that homosexuality is a choice. Gays are born that way for the most part. That being said, it is still an abnormality. I am an insulin dependent diabetic. It wasn't a choice. It is an abnormality. I differ from the norm. I can't ignore my diabetes or cure it. I can only control it and attempt to live as normal a life as possible. One hundred years ago, people with my abnormality eventually died after going blind and losing limbs to the disease. The FAA will not allow me to have a pilots license because I could easily kill myself and others if my blood sugar climbs too high or drops too low. My son leaves for Northern Tier in a little over a week. I can't go with him there or to Philmont either. BSA won't allow it as it is too dangerous for me personally and puts the boys I would be leading in jeopardy as well. While I my not like it on a personal level, I do not take exception to it. The FFA and BSA's stance on my abnormality is prudent. As an honest 49 year old man, I can tell you that my range of what I find attractive in women has changed over the years. When I was 16, I didn't find 25 year old women attractive. At 49, I find 16 year old to 55 year old women sexually attractive. Do I act on it? No. But I could. I'd be lying if I said that young firm and toned 16 to 18 year old women are not sexually attractive. Now, if I am a man who is born with a sexual orientation that is different from the norm and find my same gender sexually attractive, the potential is there for me to find the 16 to 18 year old scouts under my authority sexually attractive. I was under the authority of such a person. Maybe he was 1 in 1,000 or 10,000. That is beside the point. A homosexual man will find other men attractive....period. I don't want my son to have to find out if his scoutmaster is the 1 or 1 of the other 999. It is prudent to exclude people with a sexual abnormality that attracts them to their own gender from leadership. For those who want to allow gays, how would you counsel a scout who has been hit on or molested by that 1 in 1,000 leader.........after the fact? How would you justify your stance to him? Gee Timmy, I'm sorry that Scoutmaster Bruce molested you, but you need to keep in mind that God made him attracted to other men and it is just as normal as you being attracted to the girls at school. He shouldn't have done what he did to you, but it is normal for him. How consoled will Timmy be that adults who are supposed to look out for him actually argued to allow people in leadership who could hurt him. Sexuality is a primal instinct that some have trouble controling. A smoking scoutmaster can always take a walk behind a building for a smoke. There is no comparison, regardless of how nasty of a health habit you consider smoking to be.