SR540Beaver

Our troop has a tradition of two family campouts per year. One is a canoe trip in August. It started many years ago as a father/son campout. Now it is referred to as a parent/son campout. There is no patrol campong or cooking on this particular campout. Boys can tent with their parent or with other boys as they choose. Saturday dinner after the canoe trip is grilled steaks and potatoes baked in the coals of a fire. The other is our thanksgiving campout. We have a gentleman who used to be part of the troop who has rural land close by. We dig a 30'x3'x4' trench and feed firewood that we've cut over the previous few months into it from midnight until 6 AM. At 7 AM, the boys take turkeys, butter them and wrap them in layers of foil. Then we wrap them in chicken wire laced up with baling wire attached to a large and long stick and lower them into individual holes dug in the coals and put a layer of dirt over the top. We pull them out of the pit at 1 PM. Each patrol camps in their own patrol site and is responsible for making real mashed potatoes, gravy, stuffing and green beans. They also have to bake a pumpkin pie in their patrol site. Each patrol has to prepare enough to feed their patrol and family guests. Dinner is served at 3 PM. Some parents and siblings come and camp away from the patrols, others show up for dinner. We typically feed around 150 most years. Other than the canoe trip, it is strictly patrol camping complete with adults and youth asking permission to enter another's campsite. One of the first lessons taught any new parents is that they leave the boys and their patrol sites alone and vice versa. Works for us!(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

John, Indeed it does. He is part of our Chapter election team and ceremony team and has been tapped as a Vice Chief for Vigil this coming November. He actually filled out Venturing paperwork a couple of weeks ago. Our CO had a small but active Crew until about a year ago when most of the actice kids left for college. So far, they have been unable to resurrect it. But to keep it chartered, they've asked a number of kids to at least register, which he did. He will be moving out of council in August to attend college, so while he will remain registered, his activity back home at least will be based on his availibility. Since they are allowing Venturers at the 2013 Jambo, he has considered being a three timer as a youth. Dad would prefer he go on staff since it is much cheaper.

WAKWIB, He has known EVERYTHING since turning 13! I figure he'll realize he doesn't around his 21st birthday.

......he's a scouter! The little beaver turned 18 on Saturday, had his Eagle Court of Honor on Sunday and his adult application gets turned in tonight when the recharter paperwork gets turned in.

BadenP: "I am glad you are having such a wonderful time staffing WB21C, but IMO, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem, which is where I envision you are currently. I can tell from your post you already have developed the superior attititude of look at me I'm a WB staff director, the cult mentality. My answer to you is simply Woopee, so what. You are still no better a scouter than anyone else. Enjoy your little power trip." Well, you obviously don't know me. Part of the solution is making WB a good experience for participants. Part of the problem is people who choose to do nothing more than spread their sour disdain to others. I never claimed to be a better scouter than others. I know many, many good scouters that I can't hold a candle to, so your once again off base with your assumptions of power trips. Since we are making unfounded assumptions about people, I'll take a swing. You once were a professional years ago and you think that gives you some special insight to how BSA is run today. Something, somewhere in your employment went wrong causing sour grapes towards BSA and you bad mouth them at every opportunity on the internet. Am I as right about you as you were about me? Bottom line to all of this. You don't like WB. We get that. But must you discourage people who are interested? Is that helpful, friendly, courteous or kind?

BadenP, Here is what I know. You have what you think based on limited knowledge, and I have what I know from actual experience. I don't know how long ago you were a DE or for how long, but it appears you have been somewhat removed for quite a while. I realize regional is no more, but we are talking about how WB21C has been run in the recent past and not today aren't we? Since I've been close to it as a backup CD just this last year and you declined any involvement, I think I have a better picture of the reality of WB21C. The conducting of a standardized course and the approval of the region down to the council and the pledge by the CD is actually a serious matter to BSA from my personal observations. WB is not run with a wink and a nod anymore. WB21C did away with the good old boy way of doing WB and if/when it does happen, it gets corrected or the council is denied approval to hold a course. I was a Jambo ASM with the Coucil WB Committee Chair and scout with the WB Area Director as he is from our council. Yes, 30% new is a recommendation since there are smaller councils who don't hold many courses and might not be able to hit 30% new. For councils like mine where we hold two courses per year, we can't get away with trying to load the staff with our personal picks. I have the WB Admin guide as a PDF if you'd like me to send it to you.

BadenP, You said that you were asked to staff and declined. I've staffed three courses and served as the backup course director on my last course. I've attended two course director development conferences. Woodbadge approval of course directors, staff, participant numbers, etc. is controlled at the regional level and not the council level. The council requests to put on a course, but everything is submitted and approved at the region. At the CDDC, the course directors pledge to offer the course as written and not to deviate from it. That the course is a standard experience across each region and council is an important component and stressed by the BSA. Councils who don't care and decide to do their own thing will find themselves not being approved to hold courses. I suppose it could happen with special approval, but I've never heard of a course being approved without 30 fully paid participants 30 days out. The 30% new staff has been a standard recommendation since the inception of WB21C and is in the course admin guide.

A WB21C course must have 30 fully paid participants 30 days out from the course start date or it is cancelled. A full course is 48. If you have less than 50% (24), you can't hold a course. If you are only holding courses every two to three years and less than half the participants

John, I stand corrected. I googled the charter and you are correct. If someone had held a gun to my head, I would have sweared that there was a number of nights camping for scout troops in the charter. I guess this is how those dreaded scouting myths get started!

John, That was way back in 2004 when I facilitated a new charter.....which no longer exists. That was my only experience....doing the DE's job...and I can't source it now. What I seem to remember was that among things like the charter partner providing a clean and safe meeting environment, they would provide 10 nights of camping per year, but I could be way off base.

All eight of the methods of scouting are just that, methods. They are not requirements. That being said, scouting is outing. What is the purpose of having a troop if there is no camping going on? How many baseball teams decide to practice, but never play a game? It has been years since I helped get a new troop up and running, but the charter between the charter organization and the BSA states the number of nights camping the charter will make available as part of the program. If the SM isn't delivering the program that the charter agreed to, then I'd approach the COR (Charter Organization Representative) and discuss it with him/her. They are the person who signed his registration form in approval when he became SM and they are the ones who can remove him. I'm an OA Chapter Adviser and as such, I transport our election teams around to the troops in the district each year to hold OA elections. This gives me the opportunity to get a peek behind the curtain at the various troops. I come from a troop with about 60 boys on the roster and we have probably 20 registered and trained adults in uniform. We are a well oiled machine that camps every month regardless of the weather and do our own high adventure trips each year. I see some of these other troops with 5 or 6 boys hanging on by a thread. In each one, the SM seems to be a guy who took the job because his son enjoys scouting and no one else would take the job. Almost to a man, they tell me they had no experience walking into the job, no help, are overwhelmed and really don't have time to get trained. Sadly, there are too many of those kind of troops out there. Many of these troops cancel outings at the last minute for various reasons. Is that the situation with your troop?

yanni, What I took away from your question was not that the SPL has been doing a bad job, but that he is newly elected and some folks think he is the wrong pick. My answer to that is that elections are elections and you get what you voted for. You don't get a re-do because you don't like the results. Let me give you two for instances. A few years back, the boys were working on their annual calendar and picking where they wanted to go for the year. A scout threw out a different idea for a month that the troop had a "traditional" campout each year. The new idea won a vote. The SPL and ASPL didn't like the new idea and called for a second vote. The new idea got the most votes again. They argued their case and called for a third vote. The new place got the most votes again. When they called for a fourth vote, we adults stepped in and reminded them that the majority wins and we don't keep revoting because they don't like the majority vote. This year as our OA election teams were visiting troops and holding elections, we had a group of adults who didn't like the way the elections turned out in their troop. It seems they had a couple of 17 year old Eagle Scouts that they felt should have been elected who were not. They requested a second election which we will not do unless there was a procedural issue. I reminded them that the way a boy votes for a candidate in an OA election isn't always the way an adult would. While the adults thought the older Eagles should be elected, I reminded them that given the instructions the scouts were in what to look for in a candidate, were these Eagles friendly and helpful to the boys? They never answered. An election process isn't open to revotes when we don't like them or they are meaningless. We live with the results until the next election. The one difference is if the SPL is months into his tenure and he isn't doing the job. Perhaps he should be removed at that point and a new election held or the ASPL takes his place.

BadenP - "So SR540 based on your post WB21C is all that we have so lets all make the best of it because nobody will miss what they never had, well I disagree with you 100%." Making the best of it wasn't exactly what I said. In fact, I posted an example of our former Cubmaster who took the old course and then staffed the new course and believed it better. BadenP - "I think that if scouters really had an opportunity to compare the two different courses both in content, purpose, and motivation you would find an overwhelming majority selecting the former one." My point still is that your scenario isn't going to happen as the old course isn't offered anymore. No one can take it. BadenP - "WB21C was forced down our throats by National for no other reason than to de-emphasize the outdoor part of the boy scout program significantly and replace it with a management workshop that does NOTHING to make a scouter become a better leader or to deliver a better quality program to their units, and there has been no report from National to prove otherwise." You do realize that somewhere, some time and some place there was some one claiming that the beloved old course was shoved down their throats by national because the even older course was better. BadenP - "In fact the cases of boy scout troop incidents of accidents, deaths, and outdoor property damage has been on a sharp increase for the last 10 years, and the main reason usually given, POORLY TRAINED ADULT LEADERS, many of whom had been through WB21C, makes you kinda wonder." At the risk on making some people angry, what I have found in the majority of the cases I've seen or read in the news is that they are LDS troops led by adults appointed to lead whether they want to or not and who don't receive training because their heart isn't in it. The fact that they won't receive ANY training is what makes me wonder. WB had nothing to do with it because they can't take WB without being trained for their positions. One final thought......how do you know that the majority of the adults where scouts have died or been injured are WB trained? I think you dislike WB21C and are blindly making stuff up to shore up your point.

BadenP, Based on what criteria? That the people taking the course come away satisfied with the what they learned and the experience they had. I know one guy from my old Pack who was in the Air Force and something of a grump butt who wrote a two page evaluation of everything he didn't like in the course. I got to read it and it was mostly petty things over schedules and procedures that he didn't care for. He didn't really complain about the material. Other than him, I have not met a person from the three courses I've staffed who were unhappy with the course. Look, you don't miss something you've never had. There are folks around...and I know plenty of them...who have done both courses and almost to a person they say, "one isn't really better than the other, they are just different". Now, there are some who lament over the old course, but that is just part of human nature. I know people who lament over not having leaded gas or their old 54 chevy. We get that people liked it, but it ain't coming back even after Mazzuca. Interestingly enough, I was digging back thru some old emails today (I'm an email hoarder) and found this email from the Cubmaster of our Pack who staffed the course I took in 2003 along with four other Pack leaders. "Thank you all, for being volunteer Scout Leaders, for being such good volunteer Scout Leaders, and for signing-up to take the best training possible for good volunteer Scout Leaders. I'm speaking of the Wood Badge course coming-up in September. I think all of you know that I took the course under the old syllabus in 2001. It was the last course in our region under the old syllabus. I took that course intentionally because I love tradition and I hate how we sometimes water down things as time goes by. I wanted to be a part of that old tradition and I was concerned about what the new course might be like. In retrospect, that was a mistake. Even though tradition is a great thing, sometimes things do change for the better. After spending the last 5 months going over the training information and meeting once a month with the other Wood Badger Staffers, I realize the new syllabus is better suited for Scout Leaders. The old syllabus reminded us to use our resources, planning, counseling, representing our group, evaluating, etc. Skills that are important to know. However, the new syllabus is more in tune with the skills it takes to understand our youth, recognising and accepting change, managing conflict, team building, etc. I believe this training delivers the tools that Leaders need to make a positive impact on a youth's life. I'm getting the opportunity to learn all the new tools and help present them to you. After that, we can work together to improve our Pack and leave it in good shape and in the capable hands of XXX and our other leaders. I want you to know and understand that learning this material is important, but it's # 3 on your objective list. It follows the # 2 objective of making new friends, and they both follow the # 1 objective of "HAVE FUN". That's my # 1 task, make it yours, too. I'm real excited about the course and about the 5 of you that have signed-up for it. I appreciate it, and I know our boys will appreciate it, too."

Perhaps I should have specified that they were satisfied with the course material and what they learned as opposed to the food served. Here's the deal, 30 something adults entering scouting with their kids have absolutley no idea how this course stacks up against all the differnt variations over the years. Whining about the new course as opposed to the old course is an exercise in futility. It isn't coming back. Someday this course will be the "old" course and people will be lamenting the same things that Kudu is today. Is it worth it? Sure. Is it necessary to be a good Scouter. No. The right time to do it is when and if you have the desire.

Yet oddly, my experience after staffing three full WB21C courses is nothing but satisfied Scouters happy with what they came away with. Go figure.

Just a suggestion and I know there will be some who jump on me for this, but our SM limits who and when this MB can be taken. He take personal managment seriously and wants the boys to understand budgeting, spending and saving. If he has an 11 or 12 year old wanting to take it, he won't sign off as he feels they won't fully grasp the material and that it will benefit them to take it around 15 or 16 instead. He is a tough taskmaster on this MB and some boys in the troop look for an "easier" MB counselor. He is OK with that, but he still won't approve it until they are older. Instead of using real life of allowances of having a job, he uses a series of spreadsheets where he gives the scout a "life". It presents them with how much income they have and then they have to budget their money, save money, meet obligations and make decisions about purchases with expendable cash. They have to enter it all on the spreadsheet and submit it to hom before he unlocks the next week for them to work. They often don't get it right the first time. But I will say this since my son did it a couple of years ago, now that he has a job and a vehicle payment, insurance, upkeep, etc., what he learned in that MB has been invaluable. Had he taken it at 12 instead of 15, I don't think it would have had the same impact.

Eammon, I knew it would sound that way when I typed it. If there is a good old boys club.....and I've heard there is here just like everywhere else, it must be implied rather than physical. So far no one has presented me with a card or invited me to a meeting. I haven't been consulted on new members. Maybe I just didn't get the memo. My experience is that there are folks who love the program and are often willing to expand their efforts by working outside their unit. Is there the occasional glory hound? Yes, but they are easily recognizable. The folks in my unit might be viewed as trying to take over the district. Not true. We do it because everyone else asked turns it down. We're not always the first go to people. Do we worry how it looks? Yeah, we do. Would we be willing to let other people step up next year and run the show? You bet ya. Until then, we want to make sure our district provides a quality program to all the scouts in our district. Personally, I had several men in my young life in addition to my father that greatly influenced my in regard to service to others. It is one of the main reasons I am a unit scouter. I want to give back by being a positive influence in the life of other young men besides my son. When I had the opportunity to staff WB, I jumped at the chance. While getting to wear 3 beads was kind of cool, it wasn't my motivation. I saw WB as a multiplier. Instead of just directly reaching the kids of my one unit, I could potentially indirectly reach the kids of 48 additional units by teaching their unit leaders. I like to think that is the motivation behind all the members of the "good old boys club". They are the ones who always show up early, roll up their sleeves and are the last ones to leave without anyone asking. I suspect you are one of these people!(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Would somebody give the turn table a thump, the record seems to be stuck again.

Actually, you don't have to have WB to be an adult leader at Jambo. In a council where there are plenty of WB trained adults, it is expected. Our council holds 2 WB courses per year. Even if we don't fill a course at 48 participants, let's say we had courses of 36. That is 72 WB trained people per year. 72 x 5 = 360 WB'ers running around the council. Heck, if half of them had left the program, you still have 180. We can easily pick good Jambo leaders from a pool like that. Now, a neighboring smaller council to the south of us has not had a WB course in over 5 years. I don't know that they have a single WB'er in the council. Yet they were camped right next to my Jambo troop this last year. BSA makes allowances for situations like that. One other note. I know a lot of "old WB guys". So far, nothing they have told me about the old course has impressed me. I've heard more bad stories than good. Staff were stoic and closed lip much of the time and acted superior. It wasn't a friendly environment and intended to stress the participants. They weren't told how to do anything and it was their job to figure out what the staff wanted. One fellow WB21C staffer of mine brought his dad's ticket for us to see. It was a typed, single line spaced document in a three ring binder that looked and read like a disertation. He had to submit it numerous times as it would be returned to him to be "fixed" without being told what needed to be fixed. He had to figure it out. Of course, this was also the course that you couldn't register for and take when it was available. You had to be deemed worthy and invited. No thanks!

Basementdweller: FOS presenter Camporee Chair District committee District Eagle board presenter at Roundtable butt kissery Card holding member of the good old boys Club. I'm not sure how it is in your part of the world, but those things are done by unit volunteers in my neck of the woods. They are SM's, ASM's Committee members, etc. While still being in the trenches and serving the youth of their units, they also give above and beyond at the district and council level to extend their reach in service to youth. The council FOS chaor is an ASM from my troop. He didn't do it to get the cool patch and coffee mug they give to donaters. The camporee chair is our Committee Chair who is also a Cubmaster. He also served as the Webelos Woods Chair. He did it because the efforts in the past were less than desirable and attendance was suffering. The District OA Adviser is an ASM in our troop. He does it because he wants to provide even more opportunities to the boys in our district and deepen their commitment to service. The District Training Chair is one of our committee members with a son in the troop, a son in a pack and a daughter in girl scouts. She does it so that the kids will have trained leaders. The District Chair is a committee member from our troop. We have 5 or 6 registered adults who serve on monthly Eagle boards. We aren't butt kissers or part of any good old boys club. We are just dedicated Scouters who care about the kids in our unit as well as the kids in the district and council. We give extra time to help with the things that many of the other unit leaders won't. Heck, we have one unit of fair weather campers who might camp 6 months out of the year. Tell me, who would you nominate for Silver Beaver? The worker bees or the guys who do scouting almost as an afterthought? From my experience, the camps, the OA, the districts, the training staff and the council have open doors for anyone who wants to roll up their sleeves. Everybody is welcome to give of their time and talent and those who do the most will probably be recognized at some point, even if they don't seek it. Edited to add, we are the largest District in the Council and my unit is the largest unit. That is why so many of us volunteer outside the unit. All that being said, only one SB awarded in our District this year and it goes to a lady who is not in our unit, but works equally as hard as our extra curricular scouters do. I know her well as we were fellow Troop Guides on a WB course together and she was a great choice for SB.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

I think the thing that bothers me with stuffing is that you have so many more creases in the fabric than you do with folding. Yes, folding theoretically puts creases in the same place every time. Yes, stuffing makes random creases each time, but it's sstill a lot more creases. I don't know, perhaps it is that a stuffed tent when set up looks like a shirt you wadded up, threw in the hamper and dug back out to wear again......well, at least when you were in college and unmarried. I just figured it out. It's the women. The women have beaten us into submission on folding and rolling at home and it has carried over to our gear.

John, Staff pay is an expense, but not a huge expense from my experience. Based on a 40 hour week, my son made about $2.00 per hour. Granted, he had a tin roof over his head with screens and flaps on the plywood cabin he lived in and three squares a day, but.....

Hmmmm, I've never bought into the stuffing thing. I understand the reasoning and concept, just don't buy into it. Our troop supplies tents and we've been using the Eureka Timberline tents since the early 80's. In fact, last year we retired some tents from 1983. They have been folded and rolled almost every month since they were new and it took 27 years to wear them out. Now, all that being said, we have a tent repair box in the trailer that has parts from old retired tents. We use it to replace snapped poles, D-rings, zippers and such when needed. But the body and fly were actually that old. How do we know? We use a big Sharpie and write the year and a tent number on each piece so we can keep the tent together and track them.

Maybe I'm not reading correctly or I'm just old and befuddled. Are we talking a Cub Scout weekend camping experience or actually Cub RESIDENT Camping. They are two entirely different things.....at least in my neck of the woods. Our Cub Resident Camp are half week (three night) sessions. They either run from Sunday afternoon thru Wednesday morning or Wednesday afternoon thru Saturday morning. There are eight sessions over the four weeks of June. The staff (youth) is trained and paid, camping is in tents brought from home and meals are in the dining hall. Each year is a different theme. Program is split between Cubs and Webelos with Webelos working on Pins. There is swimming, BB guns, archery, fishing, arts and crafts, games, hikes, etc. There is an opening campfire put on by the staff and a closing campfire put on by the participants. It is a highly successful program with some weeks being maxed out with 325 campers. Occasionally they will over book beyond the limit to the point where they have to run two shifts for meals. The cost is $105 per scout and $65 per parent. In the fall we have Fall Family Adventures over the four weekends in October. Obviously, Friday is set up, Saturday is program with many of the same elements of resident camp, a campfire on Saturday night and breaking camp on Sunday. All meals are in the dining hall. The cost for youth and adults is $20 per.