skeptic

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

"Perhaps it is just my high school, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. "

While you make some cogent points, I believe the issue is an adult issue here as well.  The expectations are those put there by adults, and the pressure is generally brought by the adults.  Honors and AP classes, from my experience as a long term sub are not doing what they were intended to do.  The grades are not accurately weighted by peer comparisons, but instead biased to higher grades, A and B mostly, because the youth are in those classes, so they must deserve those grades.  Now is this the system, the parental threats when their child does not meet the parental plateau, or is it a combo of many things?  For about five years I sat on interviews for freshman level scholarships for entering students at UCR.  An interesting pattern came out as we went through the process.  Often the highest weighted GPA was not indicative of how well they might do.  Often a high GPA without the weighted grades proved to be more definitive when we spoke to the students face to face.  In my view, at the time, too many of the candidates had a bit of an attitude, one that suggested they felt superior to those with lower, on paper, academic students.  And we seldom rated the highest test scores and GPA's as the best overall, though in a few cases it was a real factor, and the interviews proved it.  Too many young people are written off by adults for various reasons, and as such they choose to just toss in the towel, so to speak.  

     One of the things I tell my Scouts when discussing Spirit and its components is the part of the Oath that says "I will do my best".  I try to stress that is their best, and that they need to measure themselves as they know they are, that they are doing as well as they are able at the moment.  "It is their best"; not that of some other youth, or that of their parent.  Schools too often write the students off without payin attention to the whole person, or the peripherals.  One of my assignments in working up to student teaching was to sit for a quarter with an individual student in a middle school reading class.  He was in seventh grade and reading at about the second to third grade level, and he was doing poorly across the board.  His attitude was one of acceptance that he was "not bright".  His parents both were professional, and he had two older siblings that were honor students  Looking at his cumulative files, it was obvious that the reading issue was there from the get go, starting with kindergarten/first grade notes from teachers.  After two days working with him one on one, I noticed that he seemed to be holding the book at odd positions, and was moving his head a lot as he struggled.  I did that in third grad or so, and that was when I was given an eye test, which I failed badly.  I got glasses and everything changed, though I had struggled to read anyway, and was way ahead of my peers.  But it became so much easier.  Boy got glasses, as his parents immediately followed up, and he move to grade level within a semester.  And his grades improve across the board.  His failure syndrome was almost winning, and could have.  Why did others not see the constant notes about reading issues while he was younger?  Why did the adults around him basically fail him?  That is where we too often find ourselves.  Few youth are automatic failures.  They become that way because we as adults too often write them off too quickly because they are problems.  

     One of my best Scout successes never made it past first class.  But he was the best first class scout around.  And he made it into Army Ranger School and retired as a Lt. Col, serving in a number of our police actions of the past couple decades.  For him, Scouting helped him show he was not a failure and could do things some of his peers could not.  The best part of scouting is when we actually butt out as adults and watch the youth take charge.  Is it hard?  Definitely.  But twenty years later, we can see the success, and that is what counts.  

As an added mention:  Today, the noted man is a father with two kids.  His daughter just earned her Gold Award in GS and is an honor student, soccer player and part-time referee, and has been a national GS representative.  His son is now a Boy Scout and has just completed Life, also an honor student, musician, and winner of science fairs.  

10 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Perhaps it is just my highschool, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. 

First, they are expected to take college level courses in high school.  When I was a kid, I took 2 AP courses, now ... If you want any chance to get selected by a highly selected university you need at least 8.  Plus you need to have nearly perfect grades and an ACT/SAT that is very high.  

Then look at sports.  When I was a kid you can simply walk on to most teams and the sport lasts the season.  Now, the best teams are not even at high school and nearly all teams except you dedicate yourself to that sport all year (and expect to travel).

Add in the expectation you also have a job, volunteer, become president of a couple of clubs, etc.

Free time for far too many kids is rare.  They are jumping around from studying for an AP test to travel baseball to mock trials, etc. 

Participation trophies are a thing in the past.  My kids participated in years of various sports, never received a trophy and were told they were no good for travel and should simply quit.

As a parent of a couple of kids today I think the lazy argument is that kids today are babied.  Actually, in many ways, I think kids today are abused.   Expectations are far too high and many sacrifice childhood to become mini adults at age 9.  The kids that don't are left feeling like they are failures. It's incredibly sad.

Scouting is the one organization where you are not judged if you are not the "best" at something and you don't leave feeling like you failed life just because you didn't ace an AP test while also throwing a baseball in the mid 90s at 16. 

I honestly think that is why we need scouting more than ever.  It allows kids to try a variety of activities, fail, learn , have fun and just be kids.  Everything else is rushing them into adulthood.

"Perhaps it is just my high school, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. "

While you make some cogent points, I believe the issue is an adult issue here as well.  The expectations are those put there by adults, and the pressure is generally brought by the adults.  Honors and AP classes, from my experience as a long term sub are not doing what they were intended to do.  The grades are not accurately weighted by peer comparisons, but instead biased to higher grades, A and B mostly, because the youth are in those classes, so they must deserve those grades.  Now is this the system, the parental threats when their child does not meet the parental plateau, or is it a combo of many things?  For about five years I sat on interviews for freshman level scholarships for entering students at UCR.  An interesting pattern came out as we went through the process.  Often the highest weighted GPA was not indicative of how well they might do.  Often a high GPA without the weighted grades proved to be more definitive when we spoke to the students face to face.  In my view, at the time, too many of the candidates had a bit of an attitude, one that suggested they felt superior to those with lower, on paper, academic students.  And we seldom rated the highest test scores and GPA's as the best overall, though in a few cases it was a real factor, and the interviews proved it.  Too many young people are written off by adults for various reasons, and as such they choose to just toss in the towel, so to speak.  

     One of the things I tell my Scouts when discussing Spirit and its components is the part of the Oath that says "I will do my best".  I try to stress that is their best, and that they need to measure themselves as they know they are, that they are doing as well as they are able at the moment.  "It is their best"; not that of some other youth, or that of their parent.  Schools too often write the students off without payin attention to the whole person, or the peripherals.  One of my assignments in working up to student teaching was to sit for a quarter with an individual student in a middle school reading class.  He was in seventh grade and reading at about the second to third grade level, and he was doing poorly across the board.  His attitude was one of acceptance that he was "not bright".  His parents both were professional, and he had two older siblings that were honor students  Looking at his cumulative files, it was obvious that the reading issue was there from the get go, starting with kindergarten/first grade notes from teachers.  After two days working with him one on one, I noticed that he seemed to be holding the book at odd positions, and was moving his head a lot as he struggled.  I did that in third grad or so, and that was when I was given an eye test, which I failed badly.  I got glasses and everything changed, though I had struggled to read anyway, and was way ahead of my peers.  But it became so much easier.  Boy got glasses, as his parents immediately followed up, and he move to grade level within a semester.  And his grades improve across the board.  His failure syndrome was almost winning, and could have.  Why did others not see the constant notes about reading issues while he was younger?  Why did the adults around him basically fail him?  That is where we too often find ourselves.  Few youth are automatic failures.  They become that way because we as adults too often write them off too quickly because they are problems.  

     One of my best Scout successes never made it past first class.  But he was the best first class scout around.  And he made it into Army Ranger School and retired as a Lt. Col, serving in a number of our police actions of the past couple decades.  For him, Scouting helped him show he was not a failure and could do things some of his peers could not.  The best part of scouting is when we actually butt out as adults and watch the youth take charge.  Is it hard?  Definitely.  But twenty years later, we can see the success, and that is what counts.  

Am I the only one that sees a connection to the controversy still hanging about in relation to females, especially girls, in the BSA?  Great history.  And I grew up with grand mothers and a mother that all worked, being a latch key kid in the fifties.  

Thanks, you are of course right in the general way.  We have it much better today than in the past.  That in itself may be a contributor to the seeming lack of too many to fend for themselves.  There is no doubt that many young people are babied so badly that they do not have a clue of reality in the wider world.  At the same time, some of us on here can extoll the benefits many of our mentees have garnered from being asked to think and act on their own.  I keep getting reminded that while I too often get annoyed at the absolutely ludicrous ideas with which the proverbial helicopter adults confront us pop up, there are many examples of youth that inspire and give hope.  And we have the privilege to interact with more of them than some adults.  Just need to not get distracted by the brash foolishness.

For a number of years now, after I was forced into stepping back, our unit insists on keeping me as SM on the charter, though I really am a figurehead now.  I have thought a few times that if we curmudgeons could be registered sort of at large with a unit or council as Emeritus.  That would cover various hats over time.  Limits starting at least a minimum of twenty years as adult volunteer, with maybe borders for decades in some manner.  Just a thought as I soon enter the ninth decade of my journey.  

32 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

I know at least one member who is on the National Staff.  IF they are smart, they would be regular lurkers here, and heed what we have to say.  For some of us, our Scouting experience goes back to the early 60s.

Since 1955, with a few gaps.  Sequential since 1975 when reupped as adult.  

I mean, we even marched with dummy rifles in local parades with a VFW sponsor, and we rode in the backs of trucks, mostly open.  Pack frames were often home made, or heavy wood, and bedrolls, rather than sleeping bags were fairly common, especially in our unit with VFW who furnished us all wool mummy bags. Yet, most of the past that I remember is familiar to today, just with modern adjustments.  Moaning for the old days is nonsense, other than the disappearance of common sense and taking responsibility without being forced.  But that is why Scouting is still needed.

And this is a surprise?  It was written on the wall from the outset almost.  Human frailties and too much time were bound to run the train off the rails.  And when it is engineered by many questionable lawyers, impossible expectations, and media hype, it should have been obvious.  Sadly, the most injured will, as noted, possibly end up with little, while others, find a way to take advantage with little or no proof.  There is no equitable way to assure the best outcome, but that will not stop the scammers and carrion birds.

Definitely a violation of the Uniform Code, and in my view, a poor decision.  It seems obvious it is a personal thing, and it does not belong as a part of the program directly.  Is it worth arguing about?  Probably not.  

I am not a watcher per se, though do take note on occasion.  Our local paper just had an article last weekend about the changes in bird migrations and related things that appear related to the climate issues.  Most noted was the moving of boundaries from the past, with many birds going farther north than in the past periods.  

Like many good concepts, this may or may not be viable.  In today's world of computers and related resources, it could be a viable project.  With imagination it might even be a resource to local scouting showcasing, and surely an introduction to a new subject for youth.  On the other hand, finding the qualified volunteers might be a challenge.  Still, similar things are done around the world it appears if you poke around on the net in the area of World Scouting, and even BSA.  Positive face, and fun, along with  learning radio skills, to include the short wave.  Good luck.

I meant using the same BSA project for more than one BSA recognition or advancement fulfillment.  The project noted above would be counted for service, but only one of the options for advancement.  But, it is the judgment of the leader, and very subjective.  

Double dipping is a decision of the leaders, though normally we would not do it for Scouting related service.  Now, on occasion we have counted hours from a separate non Scouting service, but only if voluntary at the same time a Scouting option was scheduled

 and not for a grade or something. 

The actual cert and or patch, no.  But the skill it represents, yes.  

I have always wanted a good and dependable set of BSA labeled suspenders.  Never seen any, but I would think they might be a good seller.  When I was still backpacking before the seasoning had stopped me I always wore a set of wide red suspenders to keep the pack from pushing my waist clothing down.  Also worked well with day hikes.  Better yet, think about a well designed pair of BSA logo Lederhosen knock off.

And that is my general observation as well.  Make it easier and stop the subterfuge.  Coed with proper YP in serious use.  I suspect it would just make it easier to stabilize small units and maybe even advance the overall program considerably.  Listen to the youth, not the so called experts that do surveys and studies with bias to begin.  Reality is that youth will find their own way if given the opportunities and proper supervision.  As a long story I have been reading notes, we need to stop infantilizing young teens and preteens.  

While it may not be obvious, it certainly is on the radar.  Of course, we already have coed in cubbing, many units mixing boys and girls in the various Den levels due to needing leaders and keeping it working, and there have been few issues from what I have seen or read.  Granted, some do have separate girl Dens, but usually mixed then for advancement.  

Of course, we also know that Exploring, Ventures, and Sea Scouts are all coed.  So the truth seems obvious to me, and they just are making it more difficult to keep membership in small units.  So, on paper girl and boy troops with the same sponsor, but in reality meeting together for most of the program for leadership and efficiency.  

While the political issue is real, and BSA also does not allow politically related actions, the idea is worthwhile from the young people's perspective.  My issue here is the apparent nastiness of the Girl Scouts, though we may not be seeing the whole picture.  On the other hand, based on some of their verbiage in relation to girls being allowed in BSA and similar confrontations, thye are not known for being diplomatic.  At least not from my observations.

18 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@RichardB,

You have any contacts at National who think likewise on the issue of co-ed units? or "unofficial" insights? 

There is a lot of hearsay that is out there of units that are simply doing it  But I do not know of anything directly from National.  It is simply logical and common sense.  Having done summer camp with girl troops, and also COR, there is no real issue except from the fringe that cannot find change as positive and making sense, or who are frozen in some outdated concpet of genders somehow noncompatible.  As noted, YP is the key, and that has always been the case.  

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Feb 1, 2019-2024, 5 year anniversary of admitting girls into Scouts BSA.

"This February marks five years since the Boy Scouts of America, now called Scouts BSA, first started admitting girls into the BSA program. Since 2019, around 6,000 female scouts have advanced to Eagle.

...Today there are more than 45,000 female scouts in the program across the country."

"Girls have done a terrific job and shown that they can rock a 50-mile hike, just as their brothers can," says Kayleen Deatherage, a Scouts BSA National Executive Board (NEB) member. Deatherage leads the board's task force for diversity, equity, and inclusion."

Source:

https://www.mainepublic.org/maine/2024-02-22/5-years-after-admitting-girls-scouts-bsa-in-maine-faces-new-challenges-amid-achievements

With the emphasis on the Citizenship in Society MB, as well as the struggles to find membership in small units, the comment made regarding Coed units is important.  I hope that National will recognize that as something needed, while still allowing separate units if they so choose.  Our unit has struggled for years due to location and population changes, and we tried to generate a girl unit alone, but it folded fairly soon.  We have more girls in our connect pack than boys, and they "want" to join the troop, as it is, but as a patrol.  Personally, I think that is the best avenue to use going forward.  Stop trying to adhere to biased studies related to adolescents and genders mixing, and simply assure YP is solid and in place.  

5 hours ago, Maboot38 said:

No worries, brother! Uniforms have a tendency to shrink all the time!

I think there is some kind of bug in closets of older people.  Though, I do know a few old friends that have gone the other direction, and one old HS flame that can still fit in her HS clothes.  Her now almost forty daughter used to wear her mom's old HS stuff when she was in HS herself, especially for those throw back days.  

This is one of the numerous judgment calls from my perspective.  The Insignia Guide notes certain limitations, but ultimately, they are not absolutes as long as the owner can field objections by the Uniform Police.  So, do what is right for you and deal with the nonsense as able.  Not worth a serious verbal debate.  JMHO of course.  And, since I no longer am able to wear mine due to girth, I guess I could just turn it into a hanger brag rag of some sort.

If this is an accurate comment, it IS a poor and, to me, unfathomable situation.  Obviously, we are only seeing part of the issue, but I would hope there may be other adults in the shared district that might work to help.  While this Forum might offer some aid, you may find more by reviewing FB for local district and council pages, and maybe nearby units.  I am fairly confident that someone might respond with a post to one of those, though I could be wrong.  Good luck, and please look beyond your own unit for possible aid.  And now, I need to respond to a youth on a merit badge we began last year.  

12 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Does that include the previous invoiced and paid expenses thru the bankruptcy court proceedings over the last several years that is probably outside the 2.4 billion settlement?  Other administrative costs of the settlement administrators? 

1 billion of 2.4 billion is about 42%.  I'm betting if everything is factored in, it is really significantly higher.  

So, tell me again that the legal buzzards are not getting fed.  Meanwhile, those that should be first are last, or so it seems.  Only in this country I fear is this somehow found okay by many.

And not just with skills.  The PL Council, or Green Bar Council was the go to for both youth advancement on basic skills for the lower ranks, but also were the judges and juries for most issues of discipline or unit functions.  Adults sat in to observe, and only if absolutely required would they use their adult power, and often even then it was taken to the committee if needed.  Peer pressure is a good thing, and the expectation that you are NOT performing skills properly, as monitored by the peer group, is very powerful.  And IF some type of disciplinary function was needed, it too was more likely to be accepted due to the peer issue, understanding that the adult leaders and committee still had the final say.  But that was rarely something that happened, and I saw more than one scout turn their attitudes around when confronted by the PLC.

From my old guy view, only as a feedback for the actual approval of the SM or his assigned adult proxy.  Part of the role of a SM is to mentor, and Scout Spirit is a primary element of that description.  Still, the older days, when the PLC actually did boards for the lower ranks, is a great loss to today's leadership training, at least in my view.  The take over by adults of the advancement board was one of the many changes that has catered to the concept that youth are not able to make sound judgements.  Again, just my view, though we see the results of NOT allowing young adults to actually become adults in society, now reflected in the dearth of able leadership.  Old guy venting.