skeptic
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Posts posted by skeptic
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For me, the Atheist issue is mute. I say that because the definition of Atheist is a denial of God, and thus, a denial of "something", which negates their concept at the beginning. That is just me, and some can say I am nuts. Still, we always get to similar questions that at some point will necessitate accepting something we cannot see or explain. For many of us that is God, in some form or sense. Eighty years of life has strengthened this for me. Others must live with their own beliefs or lack thereof.
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On a related note, there appears to be an April Fool joke posted on a Philmont site as well, something about turning Baldy into an image from Willy Wonka, a green toupee of sorts.
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This should be fun. Guess we will see how many will not over react?
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It depends on the person I suspect. There was a time I would have jumped at the opportunity if I could have worked it out. But, focus changes, and priorities do also. Likely a great experience if interactions happen that are worthwhile. I know that the best things I brought back from the jamborees I was able to attend were all NOT patches and such, but the meetings with other Scouters and youth from around the world and the U.S. But, the pressure schedules of many of the Scouters with whom I would liked to sit down and talk negated real substance, and I have never been able to get responses from the couple of contacts I attempted after it was all put to bed. Busy people with complicated lives, and if integral to National, not able to have a cracker barrel with someone they barely met and that is not on the same page in some cases.
The overall experiences there will not be lost. Similarly, my visits to PTC and on the trails at Philmont will always be valued and hold many good memories. They did allow some of the interactions I found missing in the Jambo's.
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With the ongoing back and forth relating to girls and boys and Scouting, I found this historical synopsis of the interactions of early youth serving groups being established very interesting. Take a look. It seems clear to me that major players in BSA, along with other groups of the time were very interested in girls and boys being involved, often together. Take a look.
Historical origins of Camp Fire
- by Alice Marie Beard
The organizational history and the story of the origins of Camp Fire are complex. There is the official version presented in the book Wo-He-Lo: The Camp Fire History, copyright 1980 by Camp Fire, Inc. Then there is the more complicated story of how the emergence of Camp Fire fits into the social picture of America. While the official version is accurate as far as it goes, the story is more complex than the official version, and more people deserve credit than only Dr. Luther H. Gulick (born 1865) and his wife, Charlotte Vetter Gulick (born 1865), the "official founders" of Camp Fire Girls.To understand the origins of Camp Fire, one must understand that, although Camp Fire does not carry the family name "Scouts," Camp Fire definitely is part of the scouting family in the USA. And to understand the origin of scouting in America, one must understand these two facts:
- The YMCA was strongly involved in getting Boy Scouts of America started.
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Although Boy Scouts of America was patterned after the Boy Scout movement that had just begun in England, it must be noted that England's Boy Scout movement was based on the earlier work of two men in America:
- Daniel Carter Beard, with his "Sons of Daniel Boone" and his 1882 book The American Boy's Handy Book.
- Ernest Thompson Seton, with his "Woodcraft Indians" and his magazine articles that were collected and published in the 1906 book The Birch Bark Roll of the Woodcraft Indians.
One also needs to realize that the various men involved in starting the Boy Scouts of America had wives and sisters, and that these various people knew each other, had frequent social interactions, and had social, professional, and educational relationships and friendships.
With that in mind, a more complete list of the founders of Camp Fire Girls would include the following, in addition to the Gulicks:
- Daniel Carter Beard, born 1850: author and illustrator.
- Adelia Belle Beard, born 1857 (sister of Daniel Beard): author and artist.
- Mary Caroline "Lina" Beard, born 1852 (sister of Daniel Beard): author and artist.
- Dr. Charles A. Eastman, born 1858: physician, author, and lecturer.
- Charles Hubert Farnsworth, born 1859: music teacher at Columbia University.
- Charlotte Alien Farnsworth (Mrs. Charles Farnsworth), born 1868: teacher at Columbia University, and head mistress of the Horace Mann School.
- William Chauncy Langdon, born 1871: poet and playwright.
- Ernest Thompson Seton, born 1860: author, wildlife artist, and executive officer of Boy Scouts of America.
- Grace Gallatin Seton (Mrs. Ernest Thompson Seton), born 1872: women's rights activist, book designer, and author (A Woman Tenderfoot, 1900).
- James E. West, born 1876: attorney and chief executive officer of Boy Scouts of America
- Mary Schenck Woolman, born 1860: President of the Women's Educational and Industrial Union, and Professor of Household Economics at Simmons College.
Daniel Carter Beard's book The American Boy's Handy Book was published in 1882. The book was full of ideas for boys about how to have fun: kite making, fishing, camping, making boats, making water telescopes, raising wild birds, hunting, making spring guns, trapping, sledding, having snowball wars, putting on puppet shows, making magic lanterns, making snow-shoes. In short, how to have fun being a boy in the outdoors.
Dan Beard had two sisters: Mary Caroline "Lina" Beard and Adelia Belle Beard. In 1887, five years after their brother's book was published, Lina and Adelia authored The American Girls Handy Book. Like their brother's book for boys, the Beard sisters' book was organized into seasonal activities. Subtitled "How to Amuse Yourself and Others," there were ideas for transplanting wildflowers, preserving the perfume of flowers, making Easter egg dolls, drying starfish, polishing shells, making corn-husk dolls and butterfly fans, painting china, entertaining, making candy.
This was over 20 years before Boy Scouts officially began. Both books were popular and well received. A generation grew up with these ideas of youth recreation with nature and in the outdoors.
In 1902, Ernest Thompson Seton began "Woodcraft Indians." He began the group because of something that had happened at his home in Connecticut in 1898: Some neighborhood boys had painted dirty words on his fence. He responded with forgiveness and invited the boys to camp on his property. From that camping experience grew Mr. Seton's "Woodcraft Indians." It was a group of boys learning outdoor skills and learning how to appreciate nature. Mr. Seton called that first group a "tribe" and added his own interpretations of Native American "flavor."
In 1905, while Dan Beard was editor of Recreation magazine, he began a group for young boys called "Sons of Daniel Boone." Its purpose was to show boys how to have fun outdoors, to teach good citizenship, and to promote conservation.
Mr. Seton frequently wrote of Native Americans, and he attempted to portray them accurately. For one of his books, he assembled a panel of Native American advisors, and this is where another player comes in: Dr. Charles A. Eastman, a physician whose medical degree was from Boston University Medical College and whose undergraduate degree was from Dartmouth. Before arriving at Dartmouth, Dr. Eastman had been known by the name "Ohiyesa." Dr. Eastman was a Sioux who had grown up on a reservation and became a fully licensed medical doctor. More later about Ohiyesa's contibutions to Camp Fire. For now, note that he began working for the YMCA in 1895.
Back to the Gulicks: Dr. Gulick was a ranking official with the YMCA from at least 1890 until at least 1911. By 1910, Mrs. Gulick was developing a girls' summer camp in Maine on Lake Sebago. The Gulicks and the Setons were friends. With encouragement from Mr. Seton, Mrs. Gulick decided that Amer-Indian lore and Amer-Indian ceremony would permeate her camp. She named the camp "WoHeLo," the first two letters of the words "work, health, & love."
While Mrs. Gulick was working with her Camp WoHelo in Maine in 1910, William Chauncy Langdon was helping the small town of Thetford, Orange County, Vermont, prepare for the celebration of the town's 150th anniversary that would happen in August 1911. Langdon wrote a pageant to be performed by the Thetford Boy Scouts, and the summer before the pageant was performed, Langdon's Boy Scouts were practicing and preparing for the pageant. The girls of Thetford wanted to be part of the activities also. Therefore, in advance of the pageant, Mr. Langdon organized the girls into a group as counterparts to the Thetford Boy Scouts. He created three ranks of achievement: Wood Gatherers, Fire Makers, and Torch Bearers, ranks still used in Camp Fire today.
Langdon was a poet, historical writer, and playwright. His plays were historical dramatizations, each telling the story of the people in a particular community. He called his dramatizations pageants and saw them as "distinct and individual art forms." Pageant of Thetford was his first pageant.
Helping Langdon with the planning for the 150th anniversary of Thetfort were, among others, Dr. Gulick, Ernest Thompson Seton, Professor Charles H. Farnsworth, Charlotte Alien Farnsworth, and Mary Schenck Woolman, all who were involved in one way or another with the formation of Camp Fire Girls.
Langdon's connection with Dr. Gulick was close: The two worked together in New York City at the Russell Sage Foundation. Most folks are familiar with the YMCA, but few have heard of the Russell Sage Foundation. It was established in 1907 "to improve social and living conditions in the United States." Located in New York City, it is a research center and a funding source for studies by scholars -- a "think tank."
Another detail to note is that Mr. Langdon, Mr. Seton, Mr. Beard, and Dr. Gulick all had a part in the planning of Boy Scouts of America. In June 1910, all four participated in a YMCA meeting trying to figure out the best way to spread the Boy Scout movement in America. All four were social and professional friends.
Dr. Gulick was leading the YMCA during the time that the YMCA was helping Boy Scouts to begin in America, and Dr. Gulick was leading the YMCA in 1911 when another of the players became Chief Scout Executive of the newly formed Boy Scouts of America: James E. West, a young Washington, D.C., lawyer who had helped set up Washington's first juvenile court so that children would not be tried in adult courts. West lived in an orphanage from the time he was seven years old. He survived tuberculosis which left him partially disabled, and he worked his way through law school. As a young lawyer, a teenage boy stole his car. West's Christian response was to turn the other check, serve as the boy's lawyer in court, and successfully defend against the charge of auto theft.
After the summer of 1910 -- when Mrs. Gulick ran her "WoHeLo Camp" and Langdon was preparing for the 1911 celebration in Thetford -- this collection of friends returned to work, most of them in New York City. Talk of the possibilities of a national organization for girls dominated talk at the Russell Sage Foundation, where Dr. Gulick and Langdon worked, and in the offices of the Boy Scouts of America, just across the street from the Russell Sage Foundation. The talk continued in the homes of this close group of friends and co-workers.
On March 22, 1911, Dr. Gulick chaired a meeting "to consider ways and means of doing for the girls [nationally] what the Boy Scout movement is designed to do for boys." Among those present in the still small group were the Gulicks, the Farnsworths, Mr. Langdon, Mrs. Seton (Grace Gallatin), Lina Beard, and Mr. West (representing Boy Scouts of America). The name "Camp Fire Girls" was agreed on that day.
"It was agreed that inquiries concerning boys' work be forwarded to the BSA and that they be asked to forward similar inquiries about girls' work to Camp Fire Girls. Dr. Gulick suggested that the officers of both organizations constitute a joint committee for matters of mutual interest."
On April 7, 1911, a second meeting of the Committee on Organization was held. Soon after, an Advisory Committee was appointed with Mr. Farnsworth, Dr. Gulick, Mr. Langdon, and Mr. West of the Boy Scouts of America. Joining the committee a bit later were Mr. Seton and Mr. Beard.
On April 10, 1911, Mr. West, in his job with Boy Scouts of America, issued the following press release from the Boy Scouts of America headquarters:
WO-HE-LO
National Society for Girls like the Boy Scouts
Prominent New York Men and Women Organize 'The Camp Fire Girls of America' -- Success of the Boy Scout Movement Paves the Way For the New Organization, but Methods Will Be Different
Plans now are being made for a temporary organization called "The Camp Fire Girls of America" which may develop into a national society in the fall if such a step seems justified. The aim of the organization is to provide for girls outdoor activities corresponding to those furnished boys by the Boy Scout movement. It seeks to encourage a greater interest among girls in exercises in the open with the threefold aim of developing their bodies, mind and characters. It is recognized, however, that the activities provided for the girls must be fundamentally different from those of boys and that special attention must be paid to the home. . . . [From Wo-He-Lo: The Camp Fire History, copyright 1980 by Camp Fire, Inc.]And two months later, on June 8, 1911, the following story appeared in the New York Times:
Surely there was no "rivalry" with the Boy Scouts of America, but the New York Times story shows two things:
First, it shows that by June 7, 1911, there were three scouting-related girls' groups in the USA:(1) A group called "Girl Scouts," that had been organized in 1910 in Des Moines, Iowa, by Clara A. Lisetor-Lane;
(2) A group called "Girl Guides," that had been sponsored in 1910 by the Rev. David Ferry of Spokane, Washington;
(3) Camp Fire Girls, which had been announced in April 1911 in New York.Second, the story shows that on June 7, 1911, the three small groups merged together and called themselves "Girl Pioneers of American." The officers of the newly formed group were named as Mrs. Charles H. Farnsworth, Miss Lisetor-Lane, and Mrs. Ernest Thompson Seaton. (In 1911, Mrs. Seaton's husband was extremely active in the newly formed Boy Scouts of America.)
Langdon's Pageant of Thetford was performed on the banks of the Connecticut River, in Thetford, Vermont, on August 12, 14, and 15, in 1911. On page 61 of the Pageant, Langdon called the girls "the Girl Pioneers." And at page 62, describing Thetford, he wrote, "They've got Boy Scouts and Girl Pioneers everywhere."
On February 8, 1912, the following story appeared in the New York Times:
The February 1912 news story used the same name, "Girl Pioneers of America," as the news story of eight months earlier. And Lina Beard was from the same group of folks who had been involved with sitting up what was called "Camp Fire Girls" in the BSA news release from ten months earlier (April 1911). And, in the William Chauncy Langdon's Pageant of Thetford that was performed only six months earlier (August 1911), Langdon had referred to "Boy Scouts and Girl Pioneers."
According to Lina Beard's entry in a book with information assembled in 1913, Lina was "Founder and chief pioneer of nat. organization of Girl Pioneers of America (sister organization of Boy Scouts of America)." From page 87 of Woman's Who's Who of America: A Biographical Dictionary of Contemporary Women of the United States and Canada, 1914-1915, edited by John William Leonard, with preface to the completed book written on January 31, 1914:
Lina's sister Adelia Beard's entry (at page 86) includes this: "With sister, Lina Beard, worked out plans now embodied in the national organization of Girl Pioneers of America, sister organization to the Boy Scouts of America, and is executive secretary of the organization."
In the same book, at page 730, Grace Gallatine Seton (Mrs. Ernest Thompson Seton) is described as "interested in Boy Scout movement and Camp Fire Girls of America."
At page 904, for Mary Schenck Woolman (Mrs. Franklin Conrad Woolman): "Interested in the Camp Fire Girls."
In other words, it appears that there was a brief time (from June 1911 to at least January 1914) when what ultimately was known as "Camp Fire Girls" was also known as "Girl Pioneers of America."
In 1914, there was another major contribution to Camp Fire: Dr. Eastman, Ohiyesa, wrote the book Indian Scout Talks: A Guide for Boy Scouts and Camp Fire Girls. Both BSA and Camp Fire use Native American traditions. In recent years, there have been complaints from some of the "politically correct" that the use of such symbols and words was wrong and degrading to Native Americans. It should be noted that the person who offered those traditions to the two organizations was a Sioux with unimpeachable credentials: He grew up on a reservation, was the only physician there to give aid after the Wounded Knee disaster of 1890, and wrote biographies of some of the greatest Indian leaders of his lifetime. Ohiyesa's book written for Boy Scouts and Camp Fire Girls is filled with ceremonies, symbols, words, and names which he suggests as appropriate for use by the youth of the two groups. He wrote of how names were given to a person in his Sioux culture, and he suggested it would be appropriate for young people to create names meaningful to them. He included two lists. Above the first, he wrote, "The following are Sioux feminine names appropriate to Camp Fire Girls, with their literal and symbolic meanings." Then, he listed some Ojibway girls' names. Those same names have appeared in Camp Fire books since.
James West retired from BSA in 1943. For all his years, Mr. West was a staunch supporter of Camp Fire Girls and was adament that Camp Fire Girls was the sister organization of Boy Scouts of America. Mr. West was such a strong supporter of Camp Fire Girls as BSA's sister organization that as Chief Executive of BSA he filed suit against Juliette Gordon Low's Girl Guide organization for using the word "Scouts" in the program as it was operated in the United States.
Camp Fire continued as Camp Fire Girls thru the 1970s. Then, there was discussion between Boy Scouts of America and Camp Fire Girls to merge the two programs. During discussions, BSA began running some groups at the high-school age level that were coed. While the decision was against a merger, BSA continued running coed high-school groups which came to be known as Explorers. Camp Fire's decision after the discussions and trial runs was to go completely coed. After it became coed, the name was changed to simply "Camp Fire." Then, to "Camp Fire Boys and Girls." And more recently to "Camp Fire USA."
At a banquet in New York City in 1910, Ernest Thompson Seton introduced British Lt. General Robert Baden-Powell as the "father of Scouting." Baden-Powell replied, "You are mistaken, Mr. Seton .... I may say that you, or Dan Beard, is the father - - there are many fathers. I am only one of the uncles." Baden-Powell acknowledged that much of what he wrote in his Scouting for Boys book was taken from Seton's The Birch-bark Roll of the Woodcraft Indians, and that the idea of having boys earn badges by meeting standards rather than completing against other boys was taken from Seton's program.
Scouting was the creation of many, not one, and Camp Fire has been the creation of many, not only the Gulicks. Also, while Camp Fire does not carry the family name "Scouts," Camp Fire is defintely part of the family.
Wo-He-Lo!
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A bit of a reach, but cotton is not the best choice often. Modern wicking type materials are generally a better choice. On the other hand, a uniform worn for formal and indoor use is fine, though they likely could simply use all the modern materials and then have no issue. For info;
Here is an article that quantifies the heat loss effects of cotton, polyester and polypropylene: Rossi et al., Dry and Wet Heat Transfer Through Clothing Dependent on the Clothing Properties Under Cold Conditions, International Journal of Occupational Safety and Ergonomics (JOSE) 2008, Vol. 14, No. 1, 69–76.
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"Encounter a Cougar while hiking ...what would your scouts do?"
Hopefully not say "here kitty, kitty".
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Follow YP guidelines, live the meaning of Scout Spirit, and let the youth be youth as they figure it out. We continue to try to make a mountain, and Scouting is only one more opportunity to find a path. Balance and that shady concept, common sense.
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Few, if any World groups would face what the BSA has and does. Our legal system is a mess, and totally illogical in many instances. Add on the "sympathetic jury" awards, and judges that will not use their legal knowledge to over ride pie in the sky monetary damages, and it is no wonder we have issues. JMO of course. Balance, as I continue to suggest, is the key.
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This fits into the general subject, though it may need to be moved. I found it interesting that it discusses similar concerns that seem connected to the BSA problems. And it too has been apparently swept under the proverbial rugs. It relates to the staging and filming of preteen and early teen TV shows on Nickelodeon and other similar channels.
https://www.aol.com/why-quiet-set-documentary-nickelodeon-204637311.html
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Sadly, at least in our society, it seems as if the concepts on which Scouting is built, again what we all Scout Spirit, are too often seen as out of the main stream, or quaint. We come back to the slurring tone of "you are such a Boy Scout", and so on. Well, being a Boy Scout is a positive thing in my view. And that includes the modern model that includes girls, women, and any that can abide by the Spirit.
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The sad thing with this is that historically, BSA has been very inclusive overall. They were far ahead in acceptance of other races, especially Blacks, though dealing with the larger society was a real challenge. Yet even in the South, there are historical proof that some found a way for them to be involved. Similarly, when the Gay issue hit the fan, the issue was forced on BSA from society, rather than BSA making it an issue. I still feel that the Dale fiasco was brought on by people outside the actual unit and it members. They were aware, but simply had not felt it worth worrying about. Then when the youth went to college and the unit's larger community found out, the trouble makers had to push things. At that point, IMO, it should have been put in the hands of the unit and National and the local Council should have left it alone. The unit had already given a silent acceptance, so it was not them with the problem.
But, that is the norm in our overly nosy and selfish society. Some just cannot let others live as they choose, but must push the limits and cause turmoil. Our 102 year old unit has had at least two Gays over time of whom I am aware, and likely more. But it has not been an issue because they just were part of the group as far as we knew. And they did not try to push themselves on others. Then it would have had to have a solution. And that is really where we are with girls in the program. Supervision, common sense, mentoring and following the intent of the foundational tenets, the thing we call Scout Spirit.
Again, just my view based on age and exposure to various societal realities with little interference from overbearing adults.
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It is a continuing mystery to me why some cannot simply separate themselves mentally, and if possible physically from things that annoy them. We all hear the comment, "turn off the TV" on a fairly regular basis. That more or less is the same thing. IF it bothers you, separate as you can and then stay away as you choose. In most cases nobody is forcing you to do anything other than be in the same vicinity. JMHO of course.
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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:
I mostly agree. My fear is BSA does the best when it focuses on adventure and skills. Everything else is about natural learning. BSA sucks when it tries to force what should be naturally learned.
Society is debating these bigger topics. I disagree with "start having the conversations", "promote education ... on gender equality" and "empower men and boys ... on gender equality". I fully believe in "creating a safe space" and "build the culture". I believe we can do that very effectively. The trouble with the first is that society is having huge debates still on these topics. If you have conversations, you better be ready to listen to others that don't believe as you believe. If you shut down people that have differing opinions, then you are not having a "conversation". If you promote, you better get ready to receive push back.
We do the best by modeling the right behavior. Create the safe spaces. Build the right culture. Be kind to all. Teach everyone. Introduce everyone to adventure. I believe we can do that making BSA a natural part of social change. That's how BSA will be most effective. ...
Leave the ugly debates to the rest of society. Let's focus on teaching (all) scouts how to keep the inside of their tent dry and how to paddle a canoe.
Some very cogent statements here, and it seems to me to verify my oft made comment that the changes in BSA, or our society in general, have to occur in the normal evolutionary way. Almost every forced change finds serous societal kickbacks, and sadly, tends to bring out the worst in those with the least aptitude for interpersonal living. We again come back to the simple premise of the "Golden Rule".
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40 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:
It can’t be FOS dollars. It needs to go to the council endowment. Most (all?) gifts to the endowment are explicitly directed to go into that fund. So, likely no, most longer term scouters do not qualify for the James West Award.
While I have never contributed much to FOS, as my donations go to the troop first, then in support of specific programs, I have not donated to the endowments directly either. On the other hand, what I have donated into is similar to what the idea of endowments is, but more immediate. But, I think it is clearer to me now. Thanks.
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Many things that make it more difficult are basically our of the direct control of BSA, or for that matter, any youth serving agencies. It is our legal system based on greed and the foolish idea that personal responsibility is not first and foremost, and that somehow human nature will NOT intrude too often and make things worse. Civil cases are built primarily on the foolish idea that it is always someone else's fault, and so anyone remotely connected can be held accountable, with few or no limits. Add human emotional empathy in many juries, and it explodes. Meanwhile, we have more and more lawyers beating the bushes for anything that might feed this. And then allow the media to hype things to extremes, and we have our perfect storm.
The concept of the Summit is not bad, it is the skewing of it over time and I fear some back stage siphoning. On the other hand, the same concept on smaller scale might have been applied to regional summer camps that simply need financial help, but had or have volunteer support locally. Then the youth served would have been more realistic, and also less expensive over all, or so it would appear to me.
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Interestingly, to me, is that most longer term scouters likely have qualified on their own for the West award, just by hanging around and putting in their dollars over time. As far as I understand, the award does not need to be a single gift, but can be over time. Most of us likely never even considered that of course when doing what we did and do. I was honored with the West award in the name of one of my Eagles that had died in service to the country, but I was not comfortable wearing the knot at the time. I still keep the cert in my memorabilia, and now I do wear the knot. But I started, ironically, after one of our long time Scouters retired with no real family, and started honoring scouters he felt were being overlooked or were deserving by buying the West award in their names, and then presenting it to them at RT, which he helped run for decades. I realized then, when he asked why I was not wearing the knot, that I was being foolish, and a bit unappreciative by my thinking. So, it went on the pocket, though really should already have been there. It was, and is an honor; in my case times two.
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Schools of thought will vary, partly dependent on how far your personal history may go back. For me, we still had basic khaki with simple embroidery; 1955-62 as youth, and did not see the more colorful ones until they first were issued, and I was an adult. Not sure if that sways me towards the earlier, less brash coloration, or if it is something else. I still like the more simple designs personally; but I like the modern merit badges better, as they help identify the subject a little better. Indirectly, I would love to see OA become less over the top. Patches that cover the entire pocket are just poor taste in my view, and the things called ghost patches make little sense to me. Similarly, I would prefer some restraint be reinstated for CSP designs so that they are a bit less glaring. Some are truly beautiful, but too many seem, again, over the top. But, I am old and probably just out of touch somehow. A little more consistency for all, and good taste.
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1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
I think the best approach would be to give the CO's options, and let them decide how they wish to structure their Scouting program...
Just like they already do with selection of adults, religious and character requirements, and whether they have a girl Troop under their umbrella.
There are many that would wish to stay with the single-gender approach.
There are many that would integrate.
Are you suggesting common sense enter into the game? 🤣
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20 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:
This could be me not culturally getting it, but why would US American young men be more prone to sexual assault than European young men? What does it mean, exactly, to not be Scouts UK? How is the BSA significantly different to Scouts UK? (Why Scouts UK in particular?)
I will share an off-the-cuff reaction someone in our pack had to how my patrol camped, everyone including leaders in a single big canvas tent. "That's probably much safer [than BSA YPT]". And I think they might be right, because the audience for any CSA is literally everyone there. That's pretty darn hard for a perp to pull off.
I used to gripe about the weight when we were backpacking, but in retrospect that might have been minor compared to a perp being able to isolate you in a tent. TBH it didn't occur to me.
Don't get me wrong, the last thing scouting in the US needs is more lawsuits, but I'm honestly not sure how scouting together raises the risk of that, or even more importantly, there being harm to sue about in the first place.
The issue is unique to our society and legal system. Most of the world recognizes that bad people are part of the larger society and precautions are warranted to take note. They are not paranoid that somehow it is being platted by every person around the corner or that does not fit the accepted stereotypes. In a way it too many people seeing shadows and believing the worst.
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2 minutes ago, qwazse said:
… doable, as long as BSA is willing to take another membership hit over the next few decades …
We’re not scouts UK, and litigation waits in the wings for any reports of sexual assault in any American organization that promotes both sexes camping together as a matter of course.
I personally believe that a coed troop could be a healthy option for many communities. But the specter of abuse lawsuits will linger for quite some time.
And it is that litigation shadow that is the problem, and why in this country it will linger unless we fix our broken legal sysem.
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As someone hinted, this is a lean towards protection of the CO. The legal black feathers continue to look for ways to go after CO's, and one of the issues that made the current legal problems so bad was/is the lack of involvement of too many of the people supposed to monitor. Also, I was glad that one poster noted the CO owns the unit, so complaining about them taking some modicum of oversight is showing a lack of comprehension of the process.
On the other hand, we are still trying to determine who our CO is. We were pushed into the modified Methodist agreements, and our charter still says the church is the CO; but that is not how it was to be, and why we are still concerned. Our church has made it clear they want us there, but the set up is not at all clear. We almost moved to the Masonic lodge, but they chose not to after originally telling us yes. So, we are back to, in theory I guess, having the council as the CO with the agreement. That still concerns us, as that could bring us trouble, as this discussion has hinted at.
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Like many things, it is the intent. Do we want youth to be uniformed, if possible? If the answer is yes, then we surely either find a way to overpay BSA, or fill in with more cost efficient close proximities. The uniform is NOT required to be a scout, nor is it a reason to NOT advance them. It is their personal actions and efforts to live the concept of Scout Spirit. And that has little to do with clothing. If you look at many parts of World Scouting, the neckerchief is the only fairly universal item.
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2 hours ago, skeptic said:
"Perhaps it is just my high school, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. "
While you make some cogent points, I believe the issue is an adult issue here as well. The expectations are those put there by adults, and the pressure is generally brought by the adults. Honors and AP classes, from my experience as a long term sub are not doing what they were intended to do. The grades are not accurately weighted by peer comparisons, but instead biased to higher grades, A and B mostly, because the youth are in those classes, so they must deserve those grades. Now is this the system, the parental threats when their child does not meet the parental plateau, or is it a combo of many things? For about five years I sat on interviews for freshman level scholarships for entering students at UCR. An interesting pattern came out as we went through the process. Often the highest weighted GPA was not indicative of how well they might do. Often a high GPA without the weighted grades proved to be more definitive when we spoke to the students face to face. In my view, at the time, too many of the candidates had a bit of an attitude, one that suggested they felt superior to those with lower, on paper, academic students. And we seldom rated the highest test scores and GPA's as the best overall, though in a few cases it was a real factor, and the interviews proved it. Too many young people are written off by adults for various reasons, and as such they choose to just toss in the towel, so to speak.
One of the things I tell my Scouts when discussing Spirit and its components is the part of the Oath that says "I will do my best". I try to stress that is their best, and that they need to measure themselves as they know they are, that they are doing as well as they are able at the moment. "It is their best"; not that of some other youth, or that of their parent. Schools too often write the students off without payin attention to the whole person, or the peripherals. One of my assignments in working up to student teaching was to sit for a quarter with an individual student in a middle school reading class. He was in seventh grade and reading at about the second to third grade level, and he was doing poorly across the board. His attitude was one of acceptance that he was "not bright". His parents both were professional, and he had two older siblings that were honor students Looking at his cumulative files, it was obvious that the reading issue was there from the get go, starting with kindergarten/first grade notes from teachers. After two days working with him one on one, I noticed that he seemed to be holding the book at odd positions, and was moving his head a lot as he struggled. I did that in third grad or so, and that was when I was given an eye test, which I failed badly. I got glasses and everything changed, though I had struggled to read anyway, and was way ahead of my peers. But it became so much easier. Boy got glasses, as his parents immediately followed up, and he move to grade level within a semester. And his grades improve across the board. His failure syndrome was almost winning, and could have. Why did others not see the constant notes about reading issues while he was younger? Why did the adults around him basically fail him? That is where we too often find ourselves. Few youth are automatic failures. They become that way because we as adults too often write them off too quickly because they are problems.
One of my best Scout successes never made it past first class. But he was the best first class scout around. And he made it into Army Ranger School and retired as a Lt. Col, serving in a number of our police actions of the past couple decades. For him, Scouting helped him show he was not a failure and could do things some of his peers could not. The best part of scouting is when we actually butt out as adults and watch the youth take charge. Is it hard? Definitely. But twenty years later, we can see the success, and that is what counts.
As an added mention: Today, the noted man is a father with two kids. His daughter just earned her Gold Award in GS and is an honor student, soccer player and part-time referee, and has been a national GS representative. His son is now a Boy Scout and has just completed Life, also an honor student, musician, and winner of science fairs.
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The BSA should get tough on scouts and scouters violating inclusion policies
in Issues & Politics
Posted
I should add that Scouting and the hundreds of outdoor experiences with them, especially my bed beneath the stars so many time, solidified a lot, though for some reason I again find myself searching. Possibly the hint of a trail nearing its apex could have something to do with that?