skeptic

15 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Totally agree... and I did not ask anyone to decide between anyone or anything.  I merely noted observations and experiences... and I agree that all these decisions are local.  However, that was not the deeper point...  I'll endeavor to make the point here, after answering a few more of your charges 😜

Sure, concur... but ambition (and enthusiasm) must never be confused with ability nor achievement. And I never remarked on probability of the event.  I merely noted the timeline, and asked the question...

No, I sought to head it off long before that.  Since you are ignorant to my circumstances, I'll enlighten you...  I submitted my Eagle Scout application 11 days before my eighteenth birthday, but only at the urging of my Scouter mentors, Council Exec, and Council President.

I had decided not to submit it.  For a variety of reasons, including some of those I mentioned, but also, from a religious perspective.  You see, during my journey as a Scout (started at 13), I became a Christian (at 17), and I was learning quite a bit in my new faith.  I had reached a personal conviction that I did not deserve the Eagle rank...

But, when a group of my adult mentors (including the Council Exec and the Council President) found out about this, they staged an "intervention" (if you will).  They sat me down and explained that, that of the Scouts they knew, I was among the top in their regards.  And that, if anyone had attained what they thought was an Eagle Scout, I had.  My most treasured mentor spoke to me about law and grace...  In my thinking, by the law, I was not deserving of the rank.  But he asked me to see it more through a perspective of grace...  in that, no matter how hard we try, we can never fully live up to the Scout Oath and the Scout Law... none of us...  and if that is the case (which I know that it is), then who among us ever deserves to be afforded the honor?  This is where the grace (if you will) comes in... in that we must trust in the adult leaders around us that we have reached a level (or measure) of character, citizenship, and fitness that marks an Eagle Scout.  

I trusted in their words and judgement, and submitted the application.

I even said this in my Board of Review... and told them all about being caught "trading" merit badges as a camp staffer, and how I had seen this as disqualifying.  My Board of Review chose to see it in the way my mentors did... and they awarded me Eagle rank...

You read way too much into the post...

Yes, I assume the same with anyone who wears an Eagle Scout rank (or any person at all, to be frank)... but I reserve any judgement until I get to know the person.  You must get to know them, and see their character (and this takes time).  The real measure of a Eagle Scout is not in the achievement of any requirements... it is in the realization that asking perfection of anyone (including yourself) is impossible.  The real merit is in the continued striving to do so, and having the conviction to take up that mantle every day, through every failure and triumph...  to keep those lofty ideals ahead of you as an aimpoint; to recognize and admit your weakness in attaining them, yet continuing to strive for the mark...

I've not found that awareness or conviction in any 12 year-olds I have ever met...  and in only a few 22, 32, 42, 52, 62, 72, etc .... year-olds.

 

 

 

I find your discussion astute, and agree that age is, as many say, just a number.  Of course, in parts of the world that number in regard to youth is varied in its validity for some involvements.  

In over fifty years in Scouting, more than 45 as an adult, I have had the pleasure of meeting many fine youth and even mentored a fair share, or I hope so.  Part of that has been as happened sitting on local Eagle boards, likely at least fifteen or so.  Also attended numerous Eagle dinners of recognition and visited with Eagles of all ages, from 13, completed just short of that age, to actually home from college.  while the older youth were more on point overall, I still remember one that was just barely 13 at his board.  His responses were more focused and mature than most of the many older youth on whose boards I sat.  You never know, and to simply use age, or for that  matter, gender as your only guideon is foolish in my view.  We need to build on these young minds and challenge them, no matter.  My generation has not done a good job for the most part, and it is sadly reflected in our societal woes.  Thus, Scouting's survival and reincarnation, if you will, is imperative, and age and gender should NOT be a major factor.  

Actually, it is mostly more elderly or seasoned males, seemingly unable to get out of the ruts of the past.  Of course, rereading some of the historical material on B.P. shows that he was open from the early period to a program for girls, and it was always a work in progress for he and his wife.  On the other hand, I have had seen some nuance that older women also have issue to a larger extent than younger.  In the end, they are youth, and they all deserve the challenges Scouting in its pure form offers, no matter the chromosomes.  JMHO of course.

Well this is a media platform and really a bit misleading.  First, she has yet to finish the advancement, if the article is accurate.  Secondly, we have no idea, other than the vague mention of bias towards her being female, as to what her experiences actually have been.  Is she close to 13?  What activities has her unit done?  What is her experience outside of Scouting?  Is she a prodigy of some kind, or just driven?  The comments about some older people being rude and condescending are sad, but again out of context.  We really do not know how they came about, or how many actually occurred.  So, lets take a breath and see what the final outcome is, and more importantly if she completes it all, she stays with the program and contributes to others reach goals.  The young woman that sort of started this push, Sydney Ireland, is now a college graduate; "I’m a recent Amherst College graduate from New York City interested in how psychology influences politics and law. I have a deep interest in contemporary dance and choreography. Since I was eleven years old, I successfully advocated for the inclusion of young women in the Boy Scouts of America. I am a member of the Inaugural class of female Eagle Scouts. In the Spring semester of 2022, I studied abroad at the University of Cambridge, Pembroke College. I just completed an internship at the White House in the Office of Communications. "

The reality is that girls and boys are generally equally able to do most things, though some may be harder due to physical limitations.  It is no longer really an issue, other than the hype on the age, and we all know of a few boys that we kind of wonder about, and that actually likely are shallow representatives.  Give it a chance and see how she is ten years down the road.  

12 minutes ago, yknot said:

Keep in mind there are currently 75 million school children in the US and close to to 10 million adults working in K-12 educational settings each year. While CSA is a concern in any setting where adults have access to kids, the numbers in scouting spike high given the relatively small slice of the population involved. 

That may be; but we also may be only seeing the tip of the proverbial iceberg.  Also comparatively, the percent of verified abuse in relation to the total number of scouts is very small statistically.  Still, there is an ongoing challenge, and many errors and simply stupid decisions have been noted.  It is a little scary, but we can  only "Do Our Best".

30 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

You were called out because you have consistently tried to downplay BSA's role and responsibility by referencing such as: the social norms of the times that the abuse occurred, BSA is better at CSA prevention than other organizations etc etc. Once again, your words are like that of a child, I hit Johnny because Joe hit Johnny so I can't be that bad.

our view, and your right.  Biased and skewed by circumstance, but your issue in that regard.  I wish there was a way for your pain and hate to be lessened.  But that is not something any of us can do, nor is there enough money to do it either.  The realities of a warped society and human weakness cannot be remedied, but only protected against as well as possible.  Recognition of reality is not the same as condoning bad actions.  

Okay, finally we can see apparent proof that the BSA issue is part of the larger problem in our country, and probably most of the world if other countries mirror us in some manner.  I was called names and worse when I tried to point out that BSA was being singled out while a greater problem likely exists throughout the youth serving agencies.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/sexual-abuse-schools-inappropriate-student-teacher-relationship-predators-2023-12

So, while there still is no excuse for what was sensationalized in regard to BSA, much that was poorly documented or exaggerated by media hype, we find a far larger concern still being glossed over.  Who is doing the glossing, the authorities, school districts, and others for a myriad of reasons.  I suspect if someone is able to find the documentation, child sports and other youth outreaches fall into this sad issue.  

The saddest part though is that it is not new, nor will it go away, no matter how upset we can get.  Bad people exist in the larger populace and find ways to take advantage and hide behind legal and insurance walls.  IF this article is close to accurate, it seems that the lack of cooperation of agencies  when asked for records and such is worse than the BSA problem as far as scale.  

Reality is that MOST educators DO NOT prey on their students, but strive to enlighten them and protect them.  The darker segments of humanity are real, and it needs to be recognized while not discounting that MOST mentors, whether in Schools, Youth Groups, Churches, or sports are NOT predators and try very hard to improve the lives of children.  JMHO of course.  

This concept being a major piece of the Scouts BSA program is, or should be, a given.  BSA was integral from the start of the the Conservation awareness in the early teens.  Its primary U.S. founders were all outdoor and nature supporters, though some had odd ideas in relation to today.  Seton particularly was a proponent of much of the modern leanings, and I suspect if he were alive today would be on the more radical side of the movements.  And even Roosevelt, it seems to me, had a direction change in his approach to nature and the natural resources.  Burroughs and Hornaday also supported BSA early on.  So, from my perspective, this is basic to our returning, with modern knowledge and options, to real conservatorship and support of the natural world, without which we will sooner disappear as a species.

14 minutes ago, MattR said:

I'm hoping you're wrong. Last night I found out our council has only 2400 youth registered. Our district, ten years ago, was larger than this. We used to have a pack in every elementary school (15 or 20?). We're down to 3 or 4. I think the packs are done folding but the troops are in serious decline at the moment. Our troop, which has always been considered strong compared to neighboring troops, is in serious trouble while 2 other troops have folded. If it weren't for a half dozen adults in our troop that no longer have kids in the troop, ours would fold.

The common thread in all of this is a lack of parents that want to put time into helping out. I used to think that no matter how messed up national was, scouting would do fine because people want it. I'm not so sure anymore. It looks to me like parents don't believe in scouting.

I still think scouting is important but I don't know how to convince people of that. The Forbes article mentioned contacting a million scouting alumni. While the cynical view is they're only asking for money, it could also be they're asking for help getting the message out.

Finding the alumni is only helpful if they choose to get involved or if they donate with a purpose, one that is noted before they do it.  On a National level, we can hark back a bit to the the discussion a while back about the English Scouter Bear something (I am old and forget).   At the 2010 Jambo we had Mike Rowe.  To me we should be working with his group to point youth towards regular jobs, as well as portraying Scout Spirit.  I could easily see a cooperative at camps that would focus on such things.  Before our local council stabbed us all with mothballing camp, we had had a number of years with welding being a huge success, even seeing a couple of those youth go into it as profession.  Before the idiocy recently, we a camp staff that had created automotive maintenance as a partner to welding, but that somehow disappeared, though the counselor, also a Scouter with a troop, is offering the badge at merit badge gatherings.  The science related badges at camp have huge popularity and I can see a similar likelihood with the trade oriented subjects.  Another direction might be working with local colleges and universities to establish stations at camps or research and also connected to merit badges.  A great example of that is the Oceanography program at Emerald Bay, though I think we may be seeing that go away from recent data.  It seems still to be the right direction for modern programming.  A final one would be a solid cooperative interaction with the National Park Service and Forestry stations.  We offered Fire Safety at camp, and it always included the Forest Service with their equipment and demos.  There is nothing wrong with building those types of of interactions.  It might even include the Y or heaven forbid, even the Girl Scouts.  But, cooperation seems to not be something too many see as a positive.  Just look at Congress.

And, the reality that "justice" is not a finite concept and ambiguous for the most part.  Those harmed or at least feeling harmed always will say "justice" is not served, no matter what.  Our legal system is such that the lawyers can play games for decades in some cases, certainly for months at least, and whatever happens, "justice" is not served for somebody, and the balance of Her scales will not be therre.  

Only some time and patience will tell.  I see some concern in finding new directions, not only for fund raising, which is an absolute, but also pointing at the inclusion of modern tech, as the youth now understand to some level, to open the program, while also mentioning aspects of the outdoors as being important.  New and old can, and really must, be married.  And, somehow we need to find that positive interface with the public again.  My experience is that it is there, just in a hibernation mode, if you will.  When we have our rag tag group in public, we seldom het any negative feedback, rather mostly positive.  And that is now coming again from younger adults, not just the elderly.  These people appear to appreciate young people showing patriotism and doing positive community things.  

We can continue to rue the mistakes and poor choices or find a new direction.  Some it appears do not countenance that direction, or simply are too jaded.  This may be a start, or it may again fall flat.  Lets hope as the next new year looms, it will move in the positive direction.  Live the Twelve, and set the examples.

4 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Exactly.

Not exactly; there has been discourse on this Forum of this very thing.  Few other groups were willing to get involved with shared info, and the IV files were never secret, other than the legal needs of the time,, just not publicized.  Again, this is simply a twisting of the story while leaving out much of the peripheral info.  And it also ignores the changes over time that relate to the whole thing.  BSA has always been an integral part of our society, but it does not control those outside it, or even completely control those within.  Guidelines are easily ignored, and many people choose to avoid conflict and bad interactions when so confronted.  And, as we can still see here, some cannot acknowledge it is not black and white, and never will be.  Too many human traits come into play, and there will never be total safety from abuse or anything else in our broader society, no matter how we try.  No organization is immune to bad actions from within or without.  Look at Congress, police departments, the military, Child Welfare bureaus, schools, and so on.  We can only work towards that ideal of safety and security, but we can neve guarantee it.  

In our area we are now trying to rally a new direction, but we are being shut down by a very unprofessional and in most of our views unqualified SE.  Trouble is that we are having issues with finding anyone to whom we can go above council.  We are trying to get a real gathering of COR's who CAN fire the man, but finding the contacts is difficult when the office claims they cannot share that info.  Our current elect president seems to either not understand very well, or he is just a puppet, or it continues to seem.  Meanwhile, our local concerned Scouters are trying to form our own program cooperative, so to speak which will allow the small units to be included in some of the program of the larger and more successful ones.  On top of it all, we were told they have closed our camp and are looking to find a new option which is aimed at selling by the SE who seems to have gotten himself veto power of some type.  An almost hundred year old camp that has been poorly administgrated for decades, but recently has shown huge success, even to out of area troops.  But with no camp the program becomes even more difficult to run well.    

If anyone on these forums might have contact info that might help us in regard to our SE issues, I would appreciate a note.  Thanks.

And of course, there is much of the issue in our society, liability based on a warped legal system that allows these suits, most settled due to the exorbitant cost of fighting the case.  Add to that, illogical jurors who too often allow common sense to fly away when confronted with a sympathetic situation.  

I do not know if our council is representative, but finding info going back is a real challenge.  Digging through old charter paperwork is where I found much of the info on our unit, but it is mostly in boxes and minimally sorted in storage.  If a unit does not keep its own history, finding it is a major effort, and it will literally give someone a headache trying to read old forms that are carbonized and so on.  Good luck.  

"quick pay"; how can one NOT understand that?  In a way, that is reflective of too much of society, and of course it appears, those that opted for "the lottery" easy pick.  

They are thinking dollars and ignorance on the part of too many as to the decorum and respect our Flag is due.  That is the sad world in which we live where too many do not understand, or maybe do not care, about such things.  The Flag Code touches on this type of thing, though it is often not clear where we step over the blurred lines of respect and avarice or misguided display concepts.  The constant use of our, in theory, respectful holidays related to the Flag to have "sales" is part and parcel of this.  But, there are no barriers that can enforce the Code, only those that may remind others and are willing to point it out.  JMHO of course.

Locally, our Scouts participated in a number of Veterana' Day programs or recognitions.  One of them was at our local county government center where Scouts acted as honor guards for Vets being recognized from each of the services, including Coast Guard.  They even note the Space Force, though not sure that is ever going to be large in the short term.  For our area, we actually have Vandenburg fairly close, ust up the coast.  

Anway, at the event we had one Gold Star family recognized, and we had two WWII Vets, one 98, and one 102.  We have a photo of one of my own unit scouts shaking hands with one of them in his wheelchair.  I could not help but think of the historic photos I have on file of Scouts at the Gettysburg anniversary in 1913, and a couple others of Scouts with service members.  

My point is, this is the real face of Scouting.  That this is what we should be making a huge effort to put out there, not to brag, but to simply remind our society that this is the real face of Scouting, not sensationalize mistakes of a few sordid humans that managed to intrude on the program and harm youth.  Do A Good Turn emphasizes it is not for a reward, and that is as it should be.  But, are we missing the boat by not at least finding a way to make the public more aware of the silent benefits of the program, carried out under their noses?  Just a thought.  

8 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I trust he will bring a more streamlined organization.  With the number of Scouts and units, even if doubled, the BSA is bloated.  The organization needs to get more efficient technology.  The professional scouts need to focus on how to grow the program and not how to raise money and sell popcorn.

The BSA is a youth organization that (for Scouts BSA) is somewhat unique in that at its best is youth led.  The endless cub scouts and family camping is moving away from that and burning out kids and families.

Look not further than the great and hallowed National Jamboree went from 40K scouts (pre-covid) to 15K this year.  Organization needs to do a great bit of self reflection.

Also sell Summit and cut the losses

Rather than sell it, rework the concept so that it is open broadly to youth other than Scouts, but also keeps the Scouting connection.  It very well could bridge the BSA with the larger society in a positive way, and also stop the financial drain.  We need to "again" be an integral part of society, rather than some kind of paria or afterthought.  But the focus needs to revert strongly to the actual youth, and ways to push the foundational concepts to the larger society.  What made the BSA so successful in its peak acceptance?  It was the image that these young people, not the adults, were living to a real code of honor and were NOT self centered.  Society is begging for that concept to be part of the larger culture.  There are still examples of this scattered about, but the lack of putting it before the public in a meaningful way is a huge mistake.  Letting the public know that Scouting is a positive influence and a major contributor to the better community is not bragging.  People need to know that BSA representatives, the youth, contribute to food drives regularly, that in some areas they rebuild major camps and trails used by the broader public, that they contribute to civic ceremonies honoring veterans and so on.  Our local scouts will be at the Government Center for the County on Veterans day, helping as asked with setup and seating and probably some element of the flag presentations.  Scouting for Food is still a major contributor to food pantries, but also done by units throughout the year.  Some do Christmas/holiday gift drives.  One unit has been supplementing the Bell Ringers for a number of years in connection with their CO.  Scouts are always part of local beach and park cleanup.  It goes on and on, yet few in the community really "know'; this.  That may be the biggest redirect.  But what would I know?

I thought I had shared this, but it does not seem to be here.  Some hopeful thoughts, though breath holding may be dangerous.  https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/11/06/five-things-you-need-to-know-about-roger-krone-the-bsas-incoming-president-and-ceo/

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/11/06/five-things-you-need-to-know-about-roger-krone-the-bsas-incoming-president-and-ceo/

Yet, the damage done by the media hype is still smearing BSA.  Not sure it will ever be overcome in some parts of the public view.  And sadly, the loudest voices against BSA are still pushing it.  Vigilance and awareness will still not make it fail safe.  It is just not possible.  

21 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

In over 40+ years, I can easily count the number of times I have seen a Scout use the corkscrew... zero.

Mostly I remember them asking "what is this for?" as they whip out the most unused extensions on their pocketknife, corkscrew included.

And what, pray tell, have you carried with a corkscrew?  LOL

Actually, in a few instance, the tool allowed removing something embedded in wood or a hard surface.  But generally just use if for my hidden wine, or maybe some good olive oil.🙃

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/10/18/getting-to-know-glen-pounder-the-bsas-youth-protection-executive/

This is a step away from the accusatory material too often showing up, IMHO.  Most importantly, Mr. Pounder, while noting huge mistakes and the need for the BSA committee, which he addresses, but he also notes the failures of the larger protection communities in the past.  Take a look and please note that I am not saying what occurred in the past is okay, only that our approaches today are in need of breadth across society.  And this seems a step in that direction, especially the mention of his other connections with the challenge.  

One thought that came to me as I was reading and listening was that in some ways, this recognition is what James West had when he took the job.  The early efforts with the manual IV files were under his watch, and he was even then recognized as a leader in the protection of youth.  He died in the mid forties, I believe just before the end of the War.  And most of the issues today came into being after his loss.  Just have to wonder if he and others in his connections might have directed us differently in those decades after the War.  

32 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Sorry, I should perhaps been clearer - that BSA != Scouting was one of my points. I agree completely - the BSA could fold and scouting for men in the US wouldn't die, it would be reborn in some way or other. The BSA can struggle without scouting going the way of the dodo, they aren't the same thing. You can't conclude that society has changed such that scouting will die just because one specific scouting organization is struggling.

Although, I wouldn't call the Pioneers or the Hitlerjugend scouting organizations, so I disagree with Wikipedia on what scouting is. Even their less extreme examples of scouting and scout-like organizations I wouldn't really consider scouting, but that's a more minor point. 

Really, I wanted to point out that there's a point in doing the basic work of delivering the program to interested children, there's a point in discussing and proposing specific operational, strategic, and tactical changes for the BSA, and there's a point to trading tips and wins with each other. The sun will rise tomorrow, and presumably we should be prepared.

I like that phrase "Be Prepared".  Seems I have seen it before.😉