sherminator505

"we only have 5 active Scouts that are 14+ years old. Tells you something or is that normal?" Perfectly normal. That's why we have Venturing. Now if the majority of the Troop were over 14, THEN I would see a problem, as it would seem that new boys weren't coming in...

I looked at their website, www.frontiergirls.com. They appear to be a new organization. Their uniforms resemble those of the American Heritage Girls, and although they are self-described conservatives, they don't appear to be quite as sectarian as AHG. They do indeed claim over 1200 merit badges, although I wonder how an advancement program that diverse can be effectively managed (there don't seem to be set "requirements" for the badges like the BSA has). Is there anyone out there that has any real-life experience with this group?

I would not be saying Yummmmmmmmmmmm. I would be saying a number of words that cannot be used here and that most Scouters would consider to be un-Scoutlike. Make mine chocolate cream please!

The parent needs to be dealt with. The Troop Committee needs to be made aware of this situation, if it isn't already. Further, the COR needs to be made of this situation, if (s)he isn't already. The parent needs to be counseled on the appearance of his actions and modify them, and if this fails, he needs to be politely asked to step back. As an aside, it is adults with red, white and blue square knots that behave like this that give the rest of us with red, white and blue square knots a bad name, and I am thus chagrined.

Do I have a problem with a Scouter wearing a metric ton of square knots? No, I don't. I'm pretty sure that they know how it looks and what some of their fellow Scouters might think about that, but they're adults and it's their perrogative. Now, I do have a problem with two things: 1) Scouters who wear two of the same knot with different devices (example - Scouter's Key and Commissioners Key). Aren't you supposed to wear the two devices on the same knot if the knots are otherwise identical? 2) Scouters who can't tell you what all the knots are when you walk up and ask them. Seriously,

You might want to put water in your coffee pot before you turn in for the evening, if you expect things to get cold...

"The fundamental flaw of IOLS is that it is based on the Wood Badge assumption that Scoutcraft skills can be separated from leadership skills." I don't quite see it that way. I think that both IOLS and WB21 are fatally flawed in that both are built on the "one size fits all" assumption that a generalized course that seeks to please all and ends up pleasing no one is somehow acceptable. Boy Scout leaders need basic AND advanced training that are specific to their program. Cub Scout leaders and Venturing leaders have similar needs, but those needs cannot be filled with the same course

Frankly, I am not so concerned about how long that omission lasted as what it represented.

NJCubScouter, I can appreciate what you're saying as far as what you're observing at the unit level, and what you're saying is perfectly true in units such as yours where you know what real Scouting is like and how to deliver it. For that, I applaud you. However, I suspect that you haven't had a whole lot of exposure to BSA training, and probably haven't served on many training staffs. If you did, you'd probably have more appreciation for what some of us are saying in this and other threads. You'll find that as you move along in Scouting and receive more training that the training do

"Yet the Catholic Church still holds onto their archaic concept to this day that women are not worthy to be ordained to the priesthood, if that is not the ultimate sign of the oppression/supression of women by the church then I don't know what is." Really?!(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

I've been referencing 1972 a lot in this thread, because this is a point of convergence in this whole conversation. 1972 marked the all-time high water mark for BSA membership. That same year, the BSA introduced the "Improved Scouting Program," and changed Wood Badge to conform to White Stag to support the change. Histories of the BSA record that the "Improved Scouting Program" lasted only lasted a few years, but how true is that statement? The Handbook was changed in 1979, but the advancement requirements remained with only minor changes (most notably the restoration of Camping). The res

I might have done that myself, had I not completed my EBOR the night before I shipped off to college. What happened in my case was that, since I was unavailable for the most part, the local OA chapter helped me pull it together. It was simple but very nice. In the end, it's really up to the new Eagle and his parents as to how to proceed. IMO, however, it is still incumbent on the new Eagle to bring cake...

"Despite what the conventional wisdom may be today, I just don't think Scouting as actually experienced "on the ground" actually became less outdoor-oriented." At the ground level, you are correct. The problem is, to one extent or another, there have been these "accomodations" to those who don't care for outdoor aspects of traditional Scouting, and it has affected how National supports what we are trying to accomplish down here. The training syllibi and literature have become more generalized and less outdoor-oriented, and I believe that these trends have done much more harm than good.

BadenP, I won't repeat your description, but I would have to say that you have perfectly described National's approach to a lot of things!

Ed, As I mentioned in my previous two posts, camping was indeed restored to the camping requirements. But it was dropped for a time, and it was not an error. It was, however, a huge mistake. Sherm(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

It isn't now, because they fixed the loophole. But if you have a copy of the 8th Edition Handbook, 1st or 2nd printing, you'll notice that Camping MB is missing from the required list for Eagle. This was not a misprint - they actually took it off. You'll also notice that Camping skill award was not required for the lower ranks (then "progress awards") either. As for anyone who actually earned Eagle without camping, I'll admit I haven't actually met one. Then again, I haven't met someone who actually sat all the way through Legally Blonde 2. That was a really bad movie...(This message has

"Brent seemed to be saying that Scouting is going down the same road as the churches that the article-writer is finding fault with. I don't see it." Look more closely. This has been happening since 1972, when the BSA introduced the "no-camping Eagle." And while at least that has been corrected, we are still seeing many aspects of this "modernization" of Scouting moving ahead full force. We see Cub awards for video games. We see the Handbook get watered down with every revision since Green Bar Bill's 9th Edition, and we see more of these professionally-trained yet outdoors-impaired folks r

"The people who oppose gay marriage, for instance, will be suffering should it be made operative." How?

Now all we need is to get that fourth corner back...

I think our sense of patriotism has waned over the years. Sure we like to wave those "American" flags that were probably made in China. But have you noticed how corporate patriotism has pretty much disappeared over the last 30 years? How we were suckered into lowering our tariffs in the name of "free trade" only to find that our main economic competitors failed to follow suit? How major corporations moved their operations out of the country to find cheaper labor and tax benefits? Is there even such a thing as corporate citizenship? There doesn't seem to be any if you look at these corpor

"Nobody knows who discovered water, but it certainly was not a fish." We are talking about SPLs here. Not White Stag or WB21, and certainly not fish! "Why are you so determined to shove an SPL down the throat of Troop with only 8 Scouts? Because like a fish who takes water for granted, you have never objectively examined the theory of Scouting that compels you to impose an SPL on even a single Patrol. And not just an SPL, mind you, but an "understudy" ASPL to boot!" Who said I was trying to shove anything down anyone's throat? As I tried to explain, the SPL would be the patrol

"My view of atheists is personal and anecdotal. . . but I would not be surprised if some study somewhere bore this out." Of course not! I'm sure that if any one of us dug deep enough, and looked in the right places, we could find a study or two that supports our particular point of view. Even the tobacco industry has that ability. Granted, they probably funded the supportive studies in the first place, but I digress. I have a few questions. I have heard some chatter on these threads about the "gay agenda." What is their agenda, in your view? What do you think they are trying to accom

"For a group that bans homosexuals, we sure seem to be fascinated by discussions about homosexuality. Almost a fixation. I'm sure there's a Freudian explanation." My interest in not in homosexuals or homosexuality, as these are not internalized concepts for me, but in how we as a society treat homosexuals and the tortured rationalizations we employ in justifying it. I identify myself more closely with MLK Jr. and Susan B. Anthony than Sigmund Freud in this regard.

With all due respect, Kudu (and at this point, possibly quite a bit more), I think you're missing the point of this thread! We are talking about the necessity of having a SPL, not debating whether White Stag or EDGE or WB21 (all of which came along DECADES after the position of SPL was conceived, by the way) are valid. You'd probably be surprised how we closely we actually agree on many of these points if you weren't investing so much time and energy trashing others' opinions. You might find out that I actually cringed when I saw the introduction of a separate handbook for SPL's. You migh

An SPL is needed. The Scoutmaster teaches the SPL how to implement Scouting in the troop, and the SPL implements it. Admittedly, this is an Americanization of what Kudu refers to as traditional Scouting, but it is reflective of how we run most real-life organizations and indeed most governmental bodies in this country. Nothing fake about it. Now if you want to discuss the realness and depth of White Stag or EDGE, or WB21, great! But that's another thread. For a small troop of 8 boys, the Patrol Leader is the SPL by default.(As an aside, if you have a troop with only 8 boys, you have