SeattlePioneer

Hello SR540, Sorry, but it's unrealistic to say you can have it both ways. You guys want to carp and complain that adults are being nominated as an honor, and indeed that appears to be the standard: > But to me that is an unfriendly and grasping basis for membership. If it appeals to some, they are welcome to it. But it creates a fundamental double standard for membership between those inducted as youth and those inducted as adults. You guys have underlined that double standard in this thread and promoted it. Fine --- but live with the consequences of it, which you obviously do not wish to do.

Hello Basement, > Yes, that's the typical way to romanticize the Indians --- the Noble Savages of Rousseau, and downplay and attack the accomplishments and achievements of the American expansion. It's about as balanced as Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show was in romanticizing the cowboy and Indian conflicts. No smallpox infected blankets were needed to spread that highly contagious disease. It had about the same effect on the American Indian population as the Black Death had on Europe when that disease was imported as trade routes expanded. No difference, really. I'm always amused when I hear the Sioux Indian tribes whining about "land stealing." The Sioux historically occupied land in Minnesota and Wisconsin. When they got horses (courtesy of Europeans), they spilled out onto the Great Plains in the early 19th century, conquering and displacing Indians tribes that had occupied that land. So why are they whining about Americans doing to them what they had recently done to others? Conquer and be conquered. That is the law that the Sioux lived by. You should read Roosevelt. You would find that a fresh perspective.

What's the point? Or put another way--- Where's the beef?

I recommend Theodore Roosevelt's interesting history, "The Winning of the West" Copyright circa 1885 or so. It recounts the westward expansion from the summit of the Appachians into Kentucky, Tennesee and Ohio River Valleys in ways you don't hear about these days. Beginning with Buffalo Bills Wild West Show, western history was romanticized in favor of white settlers mostly, Since the 1960s it's often been romanticized the Indians. Roosevelt tells this story before either of these mythologies got started. When I got this from the Seattle Public Library, the edition had been checked out a half dozen times since 1935, the previous time in 1955.

Hello Eamonn, Sorry to hear about your district being abolished. It sounds like you did a fine job, but a wide web of people are needed to make Scouting go. Take pride in the program you helped make possible. We do our best --- sometimes it's just not enough.

> Apparently not: QUOTE Because the Order of the Arrow is principally a youth organization, unit, district, and council Scouters are not selected for membership as a recognition. Selection should take place only when the adult's position in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. END QUOTE You can't have it both ways.

As I noted earlier, no one I've dealt with in OA has ever mentioned the differing expectations for youth vs adult leaders brought up in this thread. It sounds like you folks are correct in your claims. If this had been pointed out to me at the time, I would have refused OA membership. Just tonight the OA chapter adviser who has spent much time rebuilding our district OA chapter announced he can't continue with the contribution he makes without help. He is a fine person, but I suppose he'll have to look elsewhere for help. Whether justified or not, the distinction described seems like a pointedly unfriendly policy. Grasping, I'd call it. Perhaps there are reasons for it, but it is decidedly unattractive to me. I have plenty of Scouting activities to do, so I don't need OA to keep me busy. No doubt OA will soldier on without my support, assistance or participation. Congratulations on your accomplishment by pointing out this membership provision: another person now opposed to OA.

> I've never heard anyone from the lodge in the districts I've been involved with make any such statements. It's that attitude expressed on these forums that I find offensive. If some OA leader had made that point when I was nominated for OA as a Scoutmaster, I would certainly have complied with those wishes by never doing the Ordeal. And I wouldn't have risked offending other adult leaders by nominating them in future years. It just might be that if some units say "we don't do OA" when called, the reason might be that someone is making that point in a ham handed and offensive way. What a shame! For thirty years I felt honored to have been nominated for OA as an adult. Now I discover that was a mistake and rather than feeling honored I should have been told my function was to be a driver and grunt laborer. You guys have finally stripped those rose petals from my eyes! Happy with that?

As usual Kudu has Congressional Charter syndrome. BSA is not limited in what it does by its Congressional charter.

Scouting is all about cheerful service. But telling adults that you aren't wanted except as a car driver and grunt laborer is demeaning and entirely the wrong attitude, in my opinion. If that were the attitude OA was peddling, I would never have attended the Ordeal, and I would have never nominated another adult. I would have seriously considered dropping OA as a program the troop supported. It's a bad attitude, in my opinion. It probably also goes along with an attitude that OA leaders should be able to dip into the time of adult volunteers, and are entitled to be resentful when they don't get that support. I see that in threads discussing that as well. So here's my suggestion for Changing the Order: Lose that attitude.

> Frankly, I'd consider this ample good reason for a troop to drop OA. You're handing adults a broom and a dustpan and asking them to smile. I am decidedly unimpressed whenever I hear someone repeating this line.

> Generally speaking, I'm opposed to coerced apologies. If people want to apologize for some bad act, that's fine. But requiring people to apologize for something they may not agree with might require people to apologize for something they didn't do, or which they don't think was wrong. Better to just punish someone if they engaged in bad behavior rather than try to require that they aplogize. A coerced apology is a degrading form of punishment in my opinion. On the other hand, an apology freely made is a real act of contrition and regret. Frankly, I find this incident rather trivial and blown out of proportion by the adults involved, especially if the Scout decides that the posting was a mistake and he decides to remove it. If he decides he wants to leave it as it is, that's a tougher question. What political opinions are Scouts and Scout leaders not free to hold or support in legal ways?

As I understand it, Jewish religious values discourage or prohibnit tattoos. I suspect that's true for most Christian and Moslem churches and mosques as well --- anyone know? I've suggested that the popularity of tattooing comes from our prison and gang cultures, with another dollup from the enlisted military culture. As I understand it, racist or otherwise offensive tattoos will prevent people from enlisting in the military. Anyone know the extent to which tattooing in either accepted for those being officers in the US military or whether it will result in people being excluded from such positions?

My favorite wood stove of all time was in the ski club ski lodge my family belonged to in the 1950s and 1960s. The main floor was probably 2500 square feet, with dormitory sleeping on the floor above. The main floor was heated by a wood stove probably five feet in diameter and twelve feet long. It provided the heat for the main and upper floor during cold winter days. Wood was taken from the grounds owned by the club. Wood cutting and splitting was minimiezed by burning bolts 3-5 feet long. There was a steel grate fence surrounding the stove which served the dual purpose of keeping people away from the hot stove and serving as a place to dry wet clothing by exposing clothing to radiant heat from the stove. In the 1970s the age of wood went away in favor of oil heating.

> Trip to the Emergency Room for chainsaw injury-- $132,458. Actually, I do use wood to supplement my heat. No trip to the ER so far --- But I did have a trip to the Doc when I was using a ten pound sledge hammer on my set of splitting wedges. A piece of steel about the size of a .38 bullet buried itself about 3" deep in my upper thigh. It's still there. I was lucky it didn't hit me in more sensitive tissues nearby....(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Personally I consider tattoos to be trashy. The popularity of tattoos is another upwelling from the modern heart of American culture, our prisons.

I've designed the programs for several Cub Packs and Scout troops over the decades. Designing an appealing program is critical to attracting the interest of youths and parents. I'm not an Xpert on OA, but I'd suppose the same thing would be true of OA. OA appears to be cramped by more rules from national on what you can do for program. Still, I would suppose a good deal of the problem is that a lot of chapters keep doing the same old thing rather than coming up with new ideas for program. When I was tapped out at our district Camporee, those tapped out were given a clam shell on a thong as a symbol of being selected. Perhaps you can't do tapouts any longer, but surely people could think of a non-physical way of recognizing those who have been selected. Doing a cracker barrel at camporee to welcome those selected and orient them to the Ordeal would seem to be a natural. Perhaps have the new selectees set up an obstacle course or other activity for the camporee participants. Something that would make OA more visible. Make it possible for units that haven't had an election to do that at camporee. Have an OA warming tent at the district Klondike derby. I'm just throwing out ideas here. It seems to me that there ought to be ways for OA to wave the flag, and doing so at district activities would be a natural.

It sounds like there's no flap quite like a flap about OA flaps....

In my opinion the DE's should not be blabbing his opinion around the district. If he has something to say he should say it to the Scoutmaster. I'm not much on coerced apologies, and I don't think one is appropriate in this case. Let the Scoutmaster deal with the issue. He seems to be doing a good job based on your initial post at the beginning of this thread. You've got a fine troop, a fine Scoutmaster and a fine SPL who made a not too important mistake. I would suppose he would be willing to correct that mistake when it's pointed out to him --- and then he should get on with the next thing that needs to be done.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

I have a serrated edge on my Ka-Bar knife and it's a waste of edge, in my opinion.

> The Scoutmaster seems to be doing a fine job running what appears to be an excellent troop.

Personally, I don't think I's report anything to the DE or CE. After all, the only thing I know amounts to gossip. If I were asked about it, I might suggest that the person involved contact the DE or CE.

Hello Bart,

I don't recall ever reading any comments from KUDU about OA. So Kudu, what do you see as the strengths, weaknesses and potential of OA?

I repeatedly hear OA leaders bewailing the lack of interest in their program. But are they doing a good job of marketing their program? What ways can OA use to market the value of its program to Scouts and Scouters? Offhand, what about using camporees as an opportunity to show off OA? An evening cracker barrel for current and prospective OA members might be such an opportunity. How about OA at camporee providing a special ceremony for the camp, or a special activity for Scouts to participate in? Would it be possible to have OA elections at Camporee that could be scheduled at the request of units who are in attendance? My impression, for what it might be worth, is that OA keeps repeating the same old stuff all the time. If leaders are concerned about attracting interest from more Scout Troops, are there new ways to excite that kind of interest?