sctmom

I read the article last night. I think the expectations in the article are reasonable. A very important part of the article is the sidebar that explains "normal" anger and when to get professional help. It is NOT saying Scout leaders should deal with kids who hurt animals! Mommascout, About the karate -- I considered that for my son. The advice I got from numerous people who had been in karate was it all depends on the style of the teacher. There are some karate styles and teachers that would only encourage this young man to attack others. Then there are some styles and teachers that would not. I can't remember the name right now, but there is a style other than Tae Kwon Do where the participants do not spar with each other. That might be a good one for the young man you are dealing with. My son is only 11 but I have been dealing with his violent behavior for a long time. Hard to say when it started. As a toddler, he was not one that you held when he was mad, it didn't calm him just made things worse. By the time he started school, I found I was sometimes having to physical remove him from situations -- with him kicking and screaming. Luckily he had never been violent with other kids, usually I'm the target because I'm forcing him to do something. He will destroy things that he owns. He will throw things across the room. He has hit me, kicked me, thrown things at me and even bit my arm leaving bruises. The biting incident a few years ago is when we hit rock bottom. Then things began to improve. He didn't learn this from his environment. I don't think he learned it from TV or video games. It is some natural fight or flight instinct. The article in Scouting is a good introduction to some things to do for these boys. Reminders of "this is not acceptable". Reminders of "very good" when they deal with anger approriately. My son has learned to remove himself from situations. Now sometimes this results in him hiding and no one can find him. But we are working on that as well. He is learning to do something to calm himself down -- read a book, draw pictures, listen to music. Many times his anger is worse when he is tired (MAKE the scouts have lights out and enough time to sleep!!!!!) Scouting gives my son a chance to see how others behave. School is not a "natural" setting for learning that. I tell him it is okay to be angry but it is NEVER okay to take that out on others. You can be angry but life must go on, you still have to go to school, do your work, etc. The other case I personally know of is my son's friend. He is 11, lives with single mom and 2 older sisters. Dad left mom about 5 years ago to marry mom's friend. Mom is constantly putting down dad and stepmom. Mom is still so angry of the divorce and some other past issues in her life she needs lots of help herself. The boy has been violent at school to both teachers and other kids. He is small, very much a loner and immature for his age, also one of the youngest in his class. He struggles with school work. He is a perfectionist (I think he is trying so hard to please Mommmy, who has so a low opinion of men.) Mommy doesn't let the kid grow up. She has made remarks about still thinking of him as her baby. In the meantime, the girls are treated like they are grown when they are 14. The boy spent last school year with his father. I saw him in December, he was so much calmer. Can Scouting help him? I don't know. It's no so much his violence but his whole attitude. He is such a high risk for violence and/or suicide as a teenager that I really worry about him. He's a sweet kid. I know he could benefit from Scouting but it will take some effort by the men in the troop. He REALLY needs the positive male influence. He only sees his dad every other week at the most, then can't talk about dad at home.

Wow, I'm feel so honored!

We played baseball in a cow pasture. You didn't dare slid into 2nd or 3rd. Too many briars and cow patties. I remember playing with about about 11 kids, ages 8 to 16. We made up the rules as we went along, often depending on the skill level of the person at bat. Oh, how tired that imaginary man on base must have got!

Yaworski mentions something I've often thought about. I grew up in a rural town where every boy owned a gun. Some boys went deer hunting in the morning before attending school. Their guns were in their pickup trucks. Every boy and even some girls had a pocket knife. Some of these kids came from "rough" homes -- alcoholic or abusive parents. Yet, I don't remember anyone threatening to shoot someone else or cut them, except for the town crazy boy who threatened to shoot his dad unless he got a new sports car. Knives and guns were not toys. I remember the occasional fist fight and even a few bricks being thrown at people. Yaworski is also right about boys need a way to be aggressive. Telling them to "think happy thoughts" only encourages denial and eventually they will blow. That adrenaline has to go somewhere. Being physical is important. A friend of mine who has a masters in physcology and has raised a boy, said at about 10 years old her son got where he need to someone to play wrestle with. If he didn't have that physical activity and contact he would start acting up. There are a few people who are just born "bad", something isn't right. Also, most behaviors and attitudes are pretty much set way before a boy gets into Boy Scouting. I think a lot of the school shootings happen because the kids don't know how to react, don't know how to properly deal with their anger, think something is wrong with them because they "feel different" and they think no one cares. For a variety of reasons, these kids lose touch with reality. I think most adults walk around in a fog, unaware of reality and what is really important. A lot of adults are in denial about what their kids are doing, especially if the kid is having problems. Some kids are so used to having every moment organized for them they don't know what to do with free time. They don't know what a pickup game of baseball is. They don't know how to play without an official field, 18 kids, coaches, umpires, etc. Kids are in daycare or "mother's morning out" or play groups. Recess is almost non-existant. I saw in my son's science book the question of "what would you do with your time if you didn't have the technology of TV and video games". Are there that many kids who never make up games? Never go outside? I think it helps if they see adults who do things --- work around the house, garden, have hobbies, take hikes, etc. But if they never see that they never know.

If you are a new Webelos leader, I'd like to share a few suggestions with you. The Webelos program can be followed, the boys can earn a lot of pins, yet they are still not ready for the transition to Boy Scouts. Have the boys involved in planning what Webelos badges to work on. Have the boys start running the meetings -- flag ceremonies, taking attendance, collecting dues, teaching skills, etc. Can't go camping? Have a family cookout nearby, letting the boys cook over a campstove and fire for their families Find out what each boy likes to do in his spare time. Find a way to tie those to the Webelos Badges. Boy collects rocks? Let him be the leader on the Geologist Badge. Boy likes to tinker with electronics? Let him lead the electric part of the engineering badge. Have them bring in their personal art work or collections. Have them bring in vacation pictures and maps when working on the Traveler badge. Keep the parents busy with someone other than their own boy! You want the parents involved, but you also need to know when and how to say "back off". Remember you are the one in charge, even of the adults (took me a long time to learn that one). When you give the boys a project to work on, tell them they have to ask each other for help BEFORE they can ask any adult. This will help them a lot when they get to Boy Scouts. My son knew how to put up my tent. One den meeting I had him lead the other boys in putting up the tent. Then let them sit inside, since some had never camped before. The hardest part was keeping the parents out of the way. They mean well, but just took over when the boys could have done it just fine. Walk around with a piece of rope for knot tying sessions. I have seen some den leaders get very colorful rope for each boy and teach them a way to wrap it so they can hang it off their belt when not in use. In any activity requiring tape, MAKE sure an adult is in charge of the tape. It doesn't matter what kind of tape it is, you will turn your back for one minute and then the tape is gone and someone is taped to their chair or worse! Start easing out of having snacks at every meeting if that is a tradition. I only had snacks if it was part of the activity. Try to meet for 1 1/2 hours every week. Our pack was used to den meetings twice a month for 1 hour each. There was no way to complete Webelos activities in that time. A game for the Fitness badge about the Food Pyramid. Bring in 2 sacks of groceries. Divide the den into 2 teams. Tell them you just came from the store and need them to sort the items by the pyramid categories. Have identical items in the bags. Have a roll of toilet paper at the bottom of each bag. You said you came from the grocery store --- not that all items are edible! Of course, this would be a meeting to eat some of the items at. A game for the Forester badge. Fill 2 boxes with identical items -- some made from trees, some not from trees. Canned veggies, canned fruit, paper, pencil, etc. Include some strange items no one knows come from trees (Film, some plastics). Also, include something like peanuts. Have the 2 teams sort the items -- came from a tree or didn't come from a tree. For most of the Webelos Badges you can find a Boy Scout Merit Badge book that is related. You can get some ideas from the MB books, don't have the boys do the whole Boy Scout badge, but just use some of the explanations and activities from the books. Right away have the boys choose a patrol name, emblem and yell. Have the boys take a piece of plain cloth (or pillowcase) and make a rustic looking patrol flag. Refer to them as that patrol at pack meetings. Hope these suggestions help.

This was my son's idea in 4th grade for talking about safety with the Webelos. He took his carpet that looks like a road, used to play with matchbox cars, to the den meeting. He also took an array of matchbox cars, including a school bus, pick up truck, police car and ambulance. Used army men as pedestrians. You could also use those little Lego people. He set up the mat with the vehicles and people in different situations, some safe and some not safe. Then we went around the circle, having each boy point out an unsafe condition and what to do to fix it. Once we finished the main part of the meeting, the boys got to play cars for a few minutes. I think this would work well with any of the Cub Scout ages. The 4th graders had a great time with it. They were so quick and excited to point out the problems. Some of the unsafe problems, standing too close to the curb when the school bus arrived riding in the back of a pickup truck not getting out of the way of the police car not crossing at the cross walk I'm sure you can think of many more. Some have to be "acted out" to work well. Hope this helps.

OGE, Thanks so much! We will read this together this weekend. I think also he has seen my interest waning. I also realized I have not been attending meetings in uniform. If I want my interest back up, and to be taken more seriously by the scouts and scouters I need to appear in uniform even as a committee member. Then I'm not just seen as another meddling mother/parent. I have made some mental notes about things my son has talked about this week that are related to merit badges. Some may seem to be over his head, but I think he can handle them. Badges such as engineering and railroading. He has been building things out of the junk in the garage this week and "designing" all sorts of bicycle trailers and stuff (engineering). Not to mention that dog in the house could use some regular "dog care" and could learn a few new tricks. I also am going to point out to him that if he is an active scout, then one day in the not so distant future he can be a den chief. This is something that he has shown interest in before. He likes helping with the younger boys and I still have connections with the pack who would welcome him. He is in special ed for reading and writing. There are only 3 students in there right now. There are reading about Tiger Woods and golf. He was proud to show the others his golf clubs and tell them all about how to play. I reminded him that most of that he learned at SCOUTS! He joined in March. Right after that started baseball season. We were in the road every night but Wednesday. Then summer went by in a flash. I think he is burnt out about a lot of things. Troop meetings this summer were tough with no one knowing who would be there and older scouts out of town working. Thanks for all the advice from everyone.

ASM1, After your last update, I had to read back through the whole thread again. Have any of these people said exactly what you did that was so wrong? Or just is it "we don't like you"?

This may not work for everyone but our pack had all den meetings on the same night, same place. The new den leaders didn't have to worry about what night nor where to meet. The cubmaster and other den leaders were also in the next room. The new den leaders would see the other leaders and families at least once a week for a few moments, not just at pack meetings and leader's meetings. Another source of den leaders is parents with more than one boy. Maybe they aren't leaders with their oldest, but you see they are involved and attend a lot of events.

"We have some really stupid parent/kid combinations out there. Parents that think that basketball shoes are hiking shoes. Kids that believe that snow boots or steel toes work boots are good for a hike. " Good point. Yet at the same time, the "hiking" that many troops do can be done just fine in a good pair of sneakers. If you a hiking on a well traveled, packed trail through the local park, no need for high priced boots. You should see what some women think are "hiking boots" -- they look stylish, but are NOT for hiking! I am very picky about shoes for myself and my son. I believe in high quality (not just high priced), comfortable shoes. If your shoes aren't well made and don't fit right, you will never want to wear them and there will lots of pain and whining on the trail. Dark shoes look better with the BSA uniforms. Seems like I saw somewhere that dark shoes were recommended when in the "dress" uniform. Maybe that was for adults. Buster Brown! I remember those. Also, there was "Golden Goose", you got a golden plastic egg with a toy in it. For us girls the choices were black Mary Janes or black and white saddle oxford's. I was thrilled to get a pair of brown and beige saddle oxford's or "be-bocks". I remember having one pair of those and one pair of Keds. Also, your feet were measured everytime you got new shoes. And if your feet could still squeeze into the old ones, you had to wear those to play in. My pet peeve is the shoes not being tied, or tied so loose the kids foot is flopping around. Your shoes should be securely attached to your feet!

Ethics in Action is the title of a small book you can get at your Scout store or Council office. It has ideas of discussing ethics with young people. Includes some activities for the youth to do as a group and then how to lead them in discussion about what it all means. The Cub Scout Fun Book that just got discontinued had ideas at the back of it for teaching ethics to Cub Scout age kids. I don't know if the same thing is in the new Fun Book or not.

This wasn't done in Scouting, but still a great idea. A department store chain was expecting huge crowds for the back-to-school sale, which happen to also be "sales-tax-free day" in our state. Instead of hiring extra help just for the weekend they ask for volunteers that support different charities. The money that would have gone to pay temporary help goes to the charities. I think you do have to be 14 or 16 years old to do this. We helped bag clothes at the cash register, straighten clothing on shelves, put shirts on hangers, etc. Each volunteer worked a 3 hour shift. On that day only, the volunteers qualified for the employee discount. I think about 4 different charities were represented -- domestic violence shelter and a children's shelter among them.

I agree with you Rooster. Recently I have wondered how many of these cases are "copy cat" cases. How many wackos are sitting there and get an idea from having seen another wacko on the news? The internet also makes it easier to access and share pornography. Makes it easy to find victims. I will not let my child have internet access in his room. I would rather let him have a TV in there (which I don't do that either). Cable TV allows more channels into our homes. It allows more strange and bizarre shows a place in the world. The internet lets every weirdo have his/her podium from which to spout their views. A weirdo then finds another weirdo and starts to justify "I'm not alone in this, so it must be okay". My mother was considered overly protective of us in the 60's and 70's. She didn't allow us to walk out of the yard alone. Except for my brother to go hunting. As adults, we have found out that some of the men in our family were guilty of incest. My mother knew the strangers weren't the only ones to be scared of. She always knew where we were and who we were with. She knew if we were inside the house or out in the yard. She would sometimes flat out tell us who to NEVER ride in a car with -- no explanation was given but we knew she meant business. As OGE asks, What is the answer? What can we as individuals do? Will it help if we reach out to more young people?

Sagerscout writes: "have a quiet chat with the ASM over the new scout patrols" THE ASM over the new scout patrols? That might be part of the problem. There are lots of ASM's, but none seem to be assigned to either of the new scout patrols. Neither are troop guides assigned. Maybe one day they were but the guides didn't know what to do. From what I read on this board, the patrol method is not being used very well in this troop. What ever the activity is for the evening, every patrol does the same thing. They don't seem to ever have patrol meetings, only when menu planning. No patrol flags or yells. (I thought of telling the patrol leaders I can give them the fabric for a patrol flag and show them how to make one.) I will have to try the eating out. We have done that once or twice and it did work well. He likes the Huddle House down the street from the meeting (not my fave but he loves to eat there). It is a quiet and great place for us to talk.

Yes he is ADD. He actually does great during the opening (he loves even watching a flag ceremony) and closing. Announcements are kept to a minimum. Maybe some of this is the summer doldrums. Never know how many scouts will show up during the summer. Maybe things will pick back up now that school is in?

I talked about this in another thread. My son has been in the troop for about 6 months since crossing over from Webelos. He is always busy on campouts and other outings. He had a great time at summer camp. Now he doesn't want to go back to meetings. Our school system started back early, and this is the second week of school. We are in an adjustment period because he is now in middle school. I have talked with him some about the troop. I'm not happy with some of the attitudes but he doesn't see them as being bullys or mean, so that's not the problem. I really think he is bored. There are about 4 patrols in the troop. He is in one of 2 new scout patrols. The last few months the meetings have been Eagle Court of Honors (we had a rash of those), plan for the weekend campout, talk about summer camp, work on a merit badge (listen to an adult talk). They haven't been playing games or working on "active" requirements. He's a real hands-on type kid. He asked me why he can't just work on the requirements at home with me like he did in Cub Scouts. In Webelos I kept those boys walking or moving almost all the time. If we were sitting, it might be on the floor. If a boy wanted to stand instead of sit, that was fine. There was always activity and movement in Cubs. What do I tell him? What should he do? What do I do? I'm on the troop committee but don't feel I can just walk in and tell the SM and PLC how to run the program. I want him to stay in scouting because I think he can gain a lot. But he is not learning scouts skills, leadership, indepedence or teamwork at this point. He's not learning anything AND he's not having FUN! He had more fun and probably learned more by playing with junk from the garage with the neigborhood kids last night. A few wheels and some rope can entertain him for hours!

My son's Tiger year was great for the whole family. Biggest problem was the parents had little clue of what was going on. Many of the parents had not even looked at the book before the first meeting. Even after reading it, they could not understand it. Seemed simple and straight forward to me. I was a Webelos leader for about 1 1/2 years. Some of the boys in my den were smart and sophisticated. They had video games and anything else they wanted at home. The biggest problem I had was the lack of interest from the parents. The boys had a blast with everything we did. They may not have earned all the pins, but that didn't seem to matter. We did science experiments, creative freeform art, built an electrical circuit, did the alka seltzer film canister rocket, went outside as much as possible, etc. I wish I could have had more time with them. The boys lost interest because their parents put their own personal social lives first. The parents always had excuses about why they could not go camping. Such as "that's the weekend of our block party". My son is now in a troop. He went to summer camp and had a great time. He is losing interest in troop meetings. They don't DO anything. They write out menus for the next campout or they may work on a merit badge as a group. Very little hands on fun. He wants to do the Boy Scout stuff like knot tying, merit badges that have you make something, patrol competitions, games, camping, etc. He wanted to know if he could work on stuff with me at home like he did in Cubs! Cubs and Webelos wer more exciting to him because he was constantly DOING. Last night we did not attend the troop meeting, I was sick and he didn't want to go. Once he finished his homework he was out the door. Stayed outside playing for 2 hours with neighborhood kids. I told him he had to be in at 8. At 8:00, he started putting things away and came in without me telling him. Video games? Oh forget those things, he has many types that sit idle a lot. He was having much more fun tying pieces of junk together with a rope and using an old golf bag caddy to make a trailer to pull behind his bike. Also, that old tire in the garage is a lot of fun. Which sounds more fun to a kid that just sat in class for 6 hours? Play outside being creative and getting dirty OR sitting in a chair in a meeting for over an 1 hour listening to people talk??????? By the way, I have one of the few boys who actually thinks his BSA shorts fit! He is so small they look rather stylish on him. And boys love those pockets to stash stuff in. lol

It has been my understanding that child molesters can NOT be reformed. Some people might be able to reform their ways, but not all. Do keep in mind that we here about more of the horrible cases than we did in years past -- thanks to CNN and the web. Weirdos have always been out there. That parent with kids that have "issues" needs to face reality. We all have "issues" but it doesn't make us vandals and criminals. We find a way to cope and get on with life.

I think males wearing earrings has gone past the fad stage. I know heterosexual men that have worn earrings for at least 15 years or more. When I described one of the ASM's as having long hair and an earring, my son had no idea who I was talking about, even though there is only 1 adult who fits that description in the troop. My rule with my son is that when he is old enough to clean that ear every day without being told, he can get his ear/ears pierced. Same rule I would use with a girl. But since I still have to remind him to use water, soap and shampoo in the shower, I don't think I have to buy any earrings soon.

Another link that will give you a better idea of the subjects covered: http://www.cubpack133.com/familyactivity.html

I know it is available for Cub Scout families, I'm not sure about Boy Scouts families. The book is titled "Cub Scouting BSA Family Book". The booklet has different sections in it for the family to work on. The sections are: Learning Through Fun and Adventure Strengthening Family Relationships Developing Character Teaching Responsibility Handling Difficult Situations Each section has many activities listed that the family will do together. Once the family has 10 activities (2 from each section) within a 12-month period, they can receive the certificate, a pin and a patch. Some of the activities are going on a picnic, role playing a disagreement, finding ways to be nice to each other, helping a neighbor, talking about death of a family member, visiting a cemetary, playing a board game together, attending a patriotic event. There are also children's books recommended that the family can read together, attending a religious ceremony together. There are activities aimed at getting siblings to get along together. Also activities aimed at getting kids to know their extended family members better. Here is a page that describes it: http://www.cubpack133.com/familyactivity.html The only requirements online I have found are outdated. The program changed in 2000. So if you see requirements talking about a "family talk" or only 5 requirements, you have the old requirements. I STRONGLY recommend this book for Cub Scouts families. It is worth a lot more than the $2.95 it cost! Many of these activities are things you are already doing. I found the section about dealing with loss a good one when my grandmother died last year and my son lost his cat the same month.

My 2 cents worth.... Venturer2002, glad to have you participating on the board. You seem to be a wise young man. Keep up the good work. "I do, I just don't care for the way that BSA is spiraling into the abyss of mediocrity. " How do the color of loops and circles contribute to "mediocrity"?

I did this with my son when he was Cub Scout. I wish that BSA and local units would advertise it more. It is a great program for families of any shape or size. Also, fits right in with Cub Scouting.

Yaworski is right on target about girls can't wear earrings and about the people complaining about the costs of uniforms after spending $120 on tennis shoes. My sister was a cheerleader in the 1970's. At the time, earrings with big feathers attached were popular. The cheerleaders were not allowed to wear ANY dangling earrings. And these girls were not doing any of the fancy cheerleading you see today. I do not wear my rings or earrings when I'm doing outside stuff or camping. I do not want the hassle of it. Even necklaces inside a shirt are dangerous. Small stud earrings can become dangerous in active sports. I have no problems with boys wearing earrings but they do need to understand what is tasteful and what is safe.

This family has to go or stop (which is unlikely) or you going to lose others from the troop. Why does this woman even bother with putting her children in Scouts if she doesn't want them to live by the Scout Oath and promise? I'm so amazed at people like this. My 11-year old has behaviorial problems, but he suffers the consequences (he is spending this weekend in isolation with his school books and a couple of novels). And he did nothing compared the child in this thread! My son recently learned a vulgar phrase that he had no idea what it meant, but he understood me very clearly to NEVER say that again. He hears his uncle cuss a lot, but knows that he better not utter one of those words. As someone else said "you can't save them all". Sounds like this child is going to soon turn to drugs and sex, never finish high school and have been arrested by the time he is 16. The whole family needs serious help, much more than is avaiable through scouting. Good luck and stick by your guns!