Scoutfish

Another thing that irks me is when parents will watch their own kid get a badge, belt loop, arrow point or progress bead, but wiil stand up and leave during another kids moment in the spot light.

Last year, my son was a Wolf Cub, and the awards were presented (in order of) Tiger, Wolf, Bear, WebI , Web II

Even though my son was finished, we sat through the whole thing and clapped for all the kids at the appropriate time.

My son asked why we were staying, and i told him:

1) The meeting isn't over - we haven't been excused yet

and

2) "Remember how good you felt when everybody clapped and recognized you?" When he said yes, I asked him :"Don't you think the other scout would like that great feeling too?"

AS far as I can tell, he truely gets it now.

Evmori...just one more ting...In my pack, most regitered parenst started out as active non-registered parents. Sure, it would be great to say that they should register first, but alot of parents may do just that , only to find out 3 meetings later that they don't want to help or it's not what they expected.

Let parents help you where needed, and the one who enjoy it.... they will register!

I know too many parents are actually a bad thing, but usually, an active parent will turn into a ADL, DL or some other position in time. Everybody started somewhere.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Buffalo; By all means brag all you want. You are bragging for the right reasons!

Last year, my son and I entered our pack "Parent-Son Cookoff".

It was a dessert competiton.

Now, I have always been one to let my son do as much work as safety allows. I wasn't really expecting a first year scout to do that spectacular, so it was more of a participation thing.

Now...what's a dessert that isn't way too overly complicated for a 7 year old?

CHEESECAKE! We went out and bought the ingredients. My son measured out all the ingredients. He mixed up the crust stuff by hand. He spread the crust in the pie plate. He mixed up the cheese cake ingredients too.

The high light was when he decided to lick what was left in the Philledelphia Cream Cheese package! LOL! IMagine if you can a kid who loks like he just sucked a lemon, while muttering out loud:"That's good stuff right there!"

LOL! I almost messed up my pants from laughing so hard!

So after the chesecakesat up, we made out own letters designating out pack number and den number. then I helped him create the Fleur-de-lis symbol with gel frosting.

At the Christmas party, we put his cheesecake with all the other desserts. I was floored. Sheet cakes were total mock ups of camp sites complete with melted marshmello camp fires, jellow lakes, pretzel stick trees with green frosting leaves.

There was a gingerbread Boyscout den with gingerbread scouts inside, There was a 3-D firetruck cake with working lights.

My wife even suggested we take our sons cake back to our table to maybe save him some hurt feelings.

Well lo and behold. My son won for originality in his division, buyt also took the Overall Grand Champion Trophy!

Why? because it was obvious that a cub scout made the cheesecake and not an adult while a scout watched!

So I say brag away all you want!

"Replacing union work with "volunteer" work can also be a way of breaking unions"

"Volunter" work could also be a fancy way of saying slavery , no?

Since it was performed by an under the legal age of 18 scout, it might even break child labor laws right?

Did this child perform a scout action unsupervised by any scout leadership? Might out to contact the council and see who need to be reprimanded

Maybe he actually paid somebody else to do it...say illegal immigrants? Who knows, mabey the Eagle Review board ought to investigate?

Somebody should contact INS at the very least!

Yeah, all of that is rediculous and way out of proportion, but it's also the same as Balzano'z action: out of proportion and rediculous!

Balzano is just trying to show his muscle and prove a point.

He proved a point though..just not the one he intended!

My very first comment on this subject was that I did not claim to understand the inner working ofa union.

`

But I do have to argue at least one thing you said:

"Those are very 1970s-era views of how unions and employers relate, for the most part."

Mr Balzano is the very reason that these views are also very 2000's era views too!

Nobody lost any work or money. Nobody tried to undermine anybody or replace anybody. Yet istead of using commen sense and thinking, this guy distorted, and exaggerated the situation and tried to make it into something it's not. In order for him to maintain any sense or credibilty at all, he should imediately back down, reverse his stance on it and apologize for acting the way he did!

"..why they are using every weapon in their arsenal to get their jobs back."

See, that's the flawwed logic here.

THis was not a city project! THuis was not something the city, city council or public in general had planned on.

If it was not for the actions of the scout, this project would not have happened, Not the idea,the planning , nor the project itself.

The city did not ask, hire, pay, or compensate the scout.

If it was about losing work, then I have to ask: "What work was lost?" There was never a plan for the union guys to do it.

BUT there was no exclusion of the union guys either. They are of no importance or relavance to the matter. they did not lose work because of the scout, Had the scout not done it, it still wouldn't be done!

Somebody volunteer to do something for the community. Everybody ought to recognize it for what it was : a gift!

LisaBob,

" This is a necessity - it is not childish - because otherwise, an employer could be free to "union bust" by simply laying off all or many union employees and HIRING somebody else instead."

The scout was nether hired by the city, nor did he get compensated in any way. The union crew was not replaced by him .

Now as for my complaining about Unions, I know it was harsh, but that is the norm, not the exception. As with all things in life, there are always exception. Polititions for example: Most are money hungry , self serving people who vote based on personal interest or money, not the good of the people. BUT...there are those that actually run and serve their people while in office. They actually serve for the greater good.

But when we talk of politions, we generalize and hardly mention the exceptions.

Same thing with my coments about unions. Whuile yours may be a noble group, the vast majority are not!

Balzano's case as the example: This guy is bent all out of shape because the city did not pay them to do something. The Scout was not paid or compensated in any way. The city didn't spend a single cent. Had the city actually had to wait for Bazano's guys to do the project, it would still be as yet unfinished because of the lack of money on the city's part.

This isn't about "Protecting workers rights" This is about straight up ego and a power trip!

This is a case of :"How dare you think of not paying ME if anything needs to be done!"

Maybe the city should stop the scout and give the oppertunity for Belzano'z guys to VOLUNTEER" instead of the scout. I bet they( the union guys) would jump on that in a heartbeat!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I don't know Frank - "They will not be as fast or efficient as the union members" - The volunteers probably don't have mandated coffee breaks every 15 minutes, cigarette breaks every 30 minutes, and don't have to defer the decision to planting a tree at the next rep meeting because it weighed 2.4 pounds more than the suggested union guidelines!

My opinion of unions is this:

While they may have been neccesary at one time, the advent of the US labor department, the Employment Security Commission, and current labor and wage laws...I see unions as nothing more than legal rackateering groups.

You will pay me $35 dollars an hour to be a janitor, but you can't ask me to actually mop, scrub, pick up trash cans, or clean toilets!

Basically, don't expect me to do the work that my job dictates!

okay, I'll be the very first to admit that I have no dealings and quite possibly any understanding of the inner workings of a Union.

Having said that: Since when did employees of a city, wether union or not, have the say so over who does what and what policies are?

"Balzano said "there's to be no volunteers." "

I mean, I understand agreeing on what jobs are considered routine or above the bar, I understand negotiating holidays, vaction and insurance.

But for an employee to dictate policy to scale of what Balzano said is just ludicris!

To suggest that a person cannot volunteer time on PUBLIC OWNED PROPERTY just because SOMEBODY ELSE IS NOT GETTING PAID IS JUST DOWN RIGHT ARROGANT, CHILDISH AND IMMATURE!

Reminds me of my son when he was 3, If I didn't give him a full bowl of cerial, he'd say He wanted a whole bowl or he wouldn't eat any! Fine, I just dumped it back in the cerial box. The only person who got screwed was him!

However in this case, Balzano's union guys still arent getting paid either.

I have issue with it wether it pertains to a scout or not. But the fact that a scout did it as a community servise project is just the icing on the cake!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

evmori; At out den meetings, space is very limited. Too many parents would indeed be counter productive.

But at Pack meetings, everybody is expected to attend as a whole unit. this is when we hand out awards, give recognition to scouts, have duplicate crossovers for those who could not attend te official ceremonies , and just have general announcements.

This is also a time to show parents who do drop off their kids, what goes on during the other times.

At the very least, parents should not act like they are too good to do what they expect their kids to do.

Again, at den meetings, I totally agree with you!

This is a spinoff, I just couldn't make the spin off work. Or I didn't understand it. Take your pick!

Another discussion asked what ever happened to pride in scouting.

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=258363

Well, after having a few days to think about it, I realized that parents have a bigger role in how the scouts feel about scouting. On the surface, things like forcing a kid to join will obviously make him resent scouting. Holding accomplishments over his head - such as holding back a driver's license until he gets Eagle will cause resentment.

But what about the not so obvious stuff?

If you attend den/ pack/troop meetings with your son, do you just stay seated when everybody else rises for colors or reciting The Pledge of Allegiance?

If there is a groups singing going on, do you sing too, or just sit acting like you are too cool to participate?

Do you answer you cell phone to talk about yesterday's football score or talk about who said what to whom after they wore that dress to church...during the scout oath, promise or motto? Do you even let your phone ring or do you set it to vibrate just in case it goes off during the pledge?

Now, I take my phone with me at all times. You just never know when an emergency will arise. And as far as I know, emergencies don't wait until after pack/troop/ den meetings are over. But I set it to vibrate.

As for participating, I will raise my hand in a scout salute when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and the Scout oath/ promise/ motto.

I'm not entirely sure if I should put my hand over my heart as I am not a scout, or is I should do the scout salute as this is a scout function and I want to support my son.

I will sing along with everybody else even though I sound like a drunk cow in heat! My son doesn't care that I can't carry a tune, he just knows that I'm singing too.

Matter of fact, when he makes those sideways glances at me, he sees one thing for sure:

That I don't think I'm above or too good to stand up for colors, recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the scout oath. promise, and motto. He sees that I'm not too good to sing and dance with all the other scouts. I just wish my dancing was as half as good as my singing!

As far as I can tell,my son is proud to be a scout.Mybe because I'm proud of him too.

But I guess if I didn't care about scouting, or acted like it was a joke...he'd have no reason to be proud either.

So it was just a thought of mine, but isn't our outward apperance just as important as any other thing we do in scouting?

Isn't it our job as a parent to not only help our kids in scouting, but to SHOW them as well?

A sewing Badge is a great idea. While I in no way claim to be a tailor, I have sewn my sons patches on by hand. I can fix a button and repaired a zipper. Fixed a pair of pants while at work and fixed a coat during winter while in a boat in the waterway.

Wether or not it sounds girly may completely depend on the light it's shown in. You ever see the first Rambo movie?

Rambo pulls out his trusty survival knife and (with thread and nedle) sews up a 5" gash in his arm, and then sews a shirt out of canvas to keep warm. How he lost his shirt in the winter - I can't remeber!

You never know when you might need to fix ( or should I say "darn") you pants while camping, fix a sleeping bag or tent.

I say go for it! Even if they don't get the badge, they might still learn something!

So after reading many replies, I have come to realize how much I love this site.

My son is only a Bear Scout right now, but one day in the future, I may have to deal with all of this.

I am just an active parent right now who has already filled out and turned in an application. I plan on becoming a Den Leader with at least a year of ADL first.

Anyway, to the point:

At our Pack Meetings, the very first thing we do is Rise and watch the color guard come into the meeting hall. Then we salute / scout salute the flag and say The Pledge of Allegiance. Then we say the scout promise, followed by the scout motto. Then we sit down.

Then one of our more nuerotic ( I'm just kidding!) DL's will jump up, ask everybody to stand back up again, and lead us into a song, dance, something to get us riled up a bit, Then we sit down again. All the parents are involved too.......

Except maybe a big handfull who didn't stand and salute the flag, recite the Pledge of Allegiance, say any mottos, promises or anything else. Matter of fact, they hardly even paid attention to it. Maybe it was because they were staring at the ceiling in total boredom? Maybe because they just absolutely had to answer their cell phone and recapp the ball game or who won the race the day before.

Maybe they just didn't want to stand up because everybody else would see that ratty , torn up "S#$@ HAPPENS!" ( in big blazing letters) t shirt they were wearing?

Like I said, this site, and especially this topic have really made me think hard.

So where is the pride in scouting gone?

I don't know for sure, but I bet it's hard to be proud of something, when your parents won't do it themselves , and treat it like a joke!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

"There is no easy and quick answer to this."

That is probably the only truthful and final answer on the subject!

WOW! First off, let me say - this is exactly why I joined this site: To learn this kind of stuff.

My son is only a Bear Cub so far, so there isn't a worry of "PL" stuff yet. I , being a second year dad, have just applied to be an adult leader. I'm planning on being a ADL first, so I can get a few years under my belt first.

Now, not being in any sort of experienced , or qualified position about PL, I just have to ask:

Let's suppose it is absolutely the sole responcibilty of the PL when it comes to rest of the patrol; one scout (with or without a buddy) is fetching wood. Maybe 100 to 200 yards to the east.

Another scout ( again, with or without buddy) is fetching water 200 yards to the west. Why is he getting water? Maybe to put ot a fire or wash plates and stuff.

A 3rd and 4th scout are prepping a site for the camp fire....maybe 15 yards to the north.

If the Pl is trhe absolute responcible person, which set of scouts should he watch?

My point being that you can obnly look one way at a time with your eyes. It's not entirely possible to watch everybody at one time. Even with the APL, you can't watch everybody.

Now, I see this as a great "Let's chalk that one up to experience" learning opportunity!

Sure, I'd dole out some punishment to patrol, but nothing harsh. Maybe they need to wash and dry tents for 3 or 4 weekends in a row as a troop event.

Then explain the importance of what each position meens and why it needs to be respected and taken seriously.

My last and final thought: Even though I'm currently 38 years old, I still remember doing thing when I was younger. I never set out to do something with the motive of being bad. 99% of the time, it was just failure to totally think ahead and understand the outcome of my actions. That is to say...I just didn't think it through be fore I acted it out!

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

le Voy

I do not want illegals any more than anybody else!

But to say their laws didn't apply because they weren't recognized under OUR constituion?

To say OUR 14th Amendment is all that matters is arrogant!

By that very logic you stated, then when the next invaders approach America, all they have to say is : "Your laws are not recognized under our constitution!"

And years later, we cannot plead , complain or cry about how we were invaded, lest we hear that our

"Nativst laws" meant nothing to THIER constituion and whatever passes for their 14th amendment.

Now as another note:

"Protecting the status quo with laws under the nativist banner of jingoism is wrong when it infringes Constitutional rights. "

Seeing as there was no United States yet, no Organized Unions or Constiitution, how would the Constition be infringed upon?

It hadn't been thought of, written, or signed yet.

Basically, you are saying that we can invade anybody or any existing country we want because ther laws do not apply to ours...even if ours are not even created or written yet!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Yeah, my ancesters did too. And it was through laws made at the time.

BUT... those laws were made by folks that just over took this land.

My point is this: If immigration was so closely and tightly controled back in the 1300's and 1400's, there wouldn't be any United States.

We would be citizens of all the asian, European, and African countries still.

Before you blst people entering a country where they are not wanted, just remember that the current population of America started that way!

If you want to cry about immigrants, illegals and unwanted people...cry to a Native American Indian!

First thing I want to say is this: Does anybody know who the first illegal immigrants were?

I'll give you a hint: US!

We came here from other lands and pretty much declared that we were taking over. We swarmed and multiplied like a nest of cockroaches.We also decided there wasn't room for anybody but us. We killed, maimed and slaughtered many Native Americans and justified it by calling them savages! Can you beleive that? We called them savages?

We ran them from their villages, homes,and cities. We herded up thousands and thousand of Natives and "let" them crowd together on barren wretched pieces of earth and called them reservations.

So , just something to think about, we were the very first uninvited, festering group of illegal aliens that ruined an existing nation.

Now having said that, My only issue is wether they are legal or illegal.

But then again, it's kinda arrogant for thousands and millions of immigrants to come over here for opportunity, and then to decide when to close the door on everybody else who is doing the exact same thing!.

Sound alot like "do as I say, not as I do.

My only point here is to say that nobody should act self rightous or indignant over illegals and immigrants invading, when that IS THE VERY HISTORY OF AMERICA itself!

Another point of thought: How many of you would sneak into another country where you did not speak/ understand the laws. language, customs or anything else, - work your fingers to the bone while constantly being harrassed, targeted, beat up on - all so you could provide for your family?

Yeah, that's what I thought!

Again, my only issue is wether they are illegal. If they line up and apply for citizenship like it's expected to be, then I welcome them!

Does your troop/ pack/ den not have it's own web site?

You could upload all the photos for your whole (registered) troop/ pack/ den group to see,rate and comment on - but only allow uploading or removal by admin staff or the web master.

If you do not have a site, http://www.mypack.us/ will create a site just for you.

That's a very fine point indeed Novice!

"Perhaps scouting pride is linked to actually wanting to be a scout?

How many scouts that have no pride would really prefer to quit?

Followup question - but can't quit because mom & dad won't let them, or because cash or a drivers license is the inducement?

How many adults have pride in something they don't care about?"

Now that I think about it, I remember back when I was 15 or 16 years old. My best friend was a Scout. He hated it!

Why? Because every other day, his dad commented about how "If you don't make Eagle early , your not getting your driver's license when you turn 16.

Not only did his dad hold Eagle over his head, but expected him to get it earlier than others were.

My friend loved scouts until his dad made it his own thing.

I guess his dad was living through his son!

"After you incarcerated the first few and people knew the government was serious, they would quit hiring them."

Sorry, that hasn't worked so far with murder, robbery, kidnapping, tax evasion, or even gun laws.

You can make the laws tougher, trhe penalties harsher, ....but somebody somewhere will plan even harder think : "I will get away with it and not get caught!"

Now,how you word it is up to you, but basically, I'd tell the parents that are doing the cussing: "Hey look, we are trying to better our kids, not make them worse. Isn't our goal to improve upon society, not degrade it? Let's don't do anything ourselves that we'd get upset with if our kids did it too!"

Again, the wording is up to you, but the point should be the same: let's try to teach our kids to a higher standard than what even we live at.

As for me..am I perfect? Not even close!

Do I curse? Unfortumneatly, yes. I try no too and I don't around my son...unless something slips when I drop something on my foot etc.

I tell my son it's nothing to be proud of.

I have been quit from smoking for a little over 2 months now. I had smoked for 20 years, in the past 5 or 6, I had to explain to my son why I smoked, EVEN THOUGH I KNEW IT WAS BAD. But at the very least, I didn't smoke inside my house, or when in a vehicle with my wife and son.

Nobody's perfect, but at least we can try to make an effort to be a good as we can be.

The best any parent can hope for is that their kid will try to be their best .

Now,if you can remeber it, the scout promise does not anywhere say "I promise I will be perfect without flaw".

Rather, it says "I promise to do my best,..."

We want our kids to DO THIER BEST!.

Now, how come we don't say that for the parents too?

Or is isn't that dependant on the situation.

Again, Dean has hit it right on! Do the best you can with what you got.

There is not a black and white world, unless you are trying to put yourself in a self rightious state of mind...which even God says you can not, are not able to do!

I completely agree with Dean!

There is never a black and white issue:

It's against the law of man AND God to kill. Period! Yet if you are attcked, isn't it called self defense instead of murder?

Stealing is wrong by both man's laws and the bible. Yet if you accidentally short the government or another person a dollar or say..just 50 cent, you don't mind it at all do you?

As religeous people, we know thet Bible states the Sabbath takes place on Saturday, yet " we always observed it on Sunday, so why change it?"

So now we are are directly changing and ignoring one of God's laws to suit our personal needs?

Black and white, we just broke the law!

If you want to qoute the bible, how about respecting all others, including their religions, love one another as the bible says, and do not pass judgement as God tells us to!

Now see, I'm not gonna give any direct qoutes because I know that the original bible was written by man. It was actually written down by man and over the years, as it was translated from one language to next from the original.

The people of Jesus' time spoke Arameic, the bible was wriiten in greek, and we qoute latin phrase left and right. Yet, if you try to translate the basic instructions in your VCR instruction manual - you will see that it's not a smooth transition as some words dont translate!

So my point?

There is not one single person who can claim or profess to follow a black and white lifestyle!

And yes!, situations dictate the proper means or action.

If you don't believe that, then plan on never defending yourself lest you be guilty of voiolence.

The thing to remember here is this: we all do things on occasion that we do not like or wish we wouldn;'t do. The plan is to try not to do it no more than possible and to tell our kids that it isn't something to be proud of.

And if any one person wants to say they never ever do anything wrong, then tell me why God said that all man is born with sin? You gonna agree with that or argue with God?

Maybe we can blame lawyers?

Somewhere we went from being great due to our diversity as a nation to becoming a nation of "Offended by Anything"!

That guy listens to a different kind of music than me, accourding to my Home Owners Assoc, we can penalize him or sue!

Somebody has a belief or celebrates something I don't believe in: instead of just letting them have the same freedoms I want and expect: I'll complian and sue to make sure they don't do that again and possibly OFFEND me!

Of course, if what I do offends them..well, tht's just crazy! Why would anybody be offended by what I do/ believe/ practice?

YOU BETTER NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION LEST I GET OFFENDED AND SUE YOU!

The problem with respect these days can be pretty much attributed to parents who wanted to be friends to their kids instead of parents!

My dad was a cool guy to hang out with. He taught me to fish, clean fish, cook, how to show respect and reverance to our active and retired military. He taught me manners and such.

He didn't just tell me though..he taught by example too.

But I never ever forgot he was my father, and not just a friend. If I stepped out of line, I paid the consequences - wether corporal or social.He was my father instead of my "friend". Funny thing is, I still love himjust as much!

You obeyed your parents even when you didn't agree with them.

Funny how it is, that when you move out on your own, buy your first house, and get married - well...it's funny how your parents suddenly get smarter! LOL!

Okay, this wasn't my pack, but when the family and I went to Daytona for The Budweiser Shootout, we obviously had t0o park somewhere. Well, forget the $50 parking across the street from the speedway!

So we actually saw a parking lot that was about 3 acres in size, that only asked for a donation of $20.

Turns out it was a Daytona beach Cub Scout pack. I didn't catch the den or pack number as I was too involved with scouting at the time.

But from what I gathered from one of the adults, the pack asked if they could rent a portion of the airport parking lot for a "nominal fee". It was $50 or something close to that.

Now here's the kicker: The cub scout (with adult supervision) directed and parked the spectators. They collected $20 a car, and every other race fan I talked to were glad that

1) They were supporting a great cause and,

2) supporting that cause saved alot of money as we only parked about 100 yards farther than the $50 parking lots.

$20 was the "donation" listed, but most fans paid $30 or $40 and still came out ahead.

Okay, so you don't have a NASCAR raceway in your town. How about a county fair, festival,or city event?