Scoutfish

Frilly? I think not! LOL! In other words..it's on now! You are fixing to see a "who can one up the other" contest!

Creativity like you have never seen before.

You will be amazed at what comes through those doors.

And some might even be edible too! LOL!

As for judging, we asked 3 people from our charter organazation to judge. They were 3 people who did not actually know or have relationships to any of the scouts. That way there was no favortism due to the scouts, the scouts parents, any relationship bias or what not.

One more thing...the scouts put their name under the plates, pans, dishes or whatever. tape works okay. That way, you don't know by just looking ..who made what dessetrt, no partiality that way either!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Lisa, I did not mean to imply you had no backbone.

What I was saying, what I am saying now is this: get those parents who have the "But what can we do?" together. Show them exactly what I posted for you. Hell, get out your book and you probably can find even more.

THis is how to handle it.

With these specific reguilations of Scouting...there is no back and forth. There is no "what if they try this?" or "what if they don't like it?"

The rules and regulations are very clear. They are not up for popular vote or "how much do they really mean?".

They are solid.....or at least solid enough in this case.

Maybe the CM or CC is okay with things. Time to get all those parents, scouts and whover else together and say (as a group) let the Scouts stand up and say : "This is OUR troop! It will run as OUR troop or we will see that it folds!

Be prepared to co to DE, Council, National or even the CO and dp just that.

Fora kid on his last year,it may be alot of trouble, but for a first year scout, and any potential future scouts..it is very well worth it!

Oh, and for those who don't pay general dues, registration fees or recharter...

We will not ban a cub from attending den or pack meetings, but will inform parents that there are no advancements, belt loops, badges handed out or participation in events such as den/family campouts, day camps, or any Council events. do it for two years and you are dropped from the registry.

Having said that however, we do have a program in place for cubs who are affected by finacial burdons. We will not ignore or sidestep around a child who for economic reasons, cannot afford $18 a year or the ability to buy a uniform or cub guidebook.

We will not punish "Johnny" because mom or dad lost a job in these economic times or if "Billy's dad died last year and his mom just barely manages to survive. These boys need scouting more than anybody!

We changed up our PWd this year.

Used to, the cars were given out at Christ,mas to all the cubs. On PWD day, you showwed up, paida $2.oo fee to cover the cost of tropheys, ribbons, cars , etc.

But it was a pain trying to figure out how many ribbons, tropheys etc to buy. One year everybody showed up. Next year, 3/4 showed up.

People waited too long, toolate to pay .

So this year, we are doing somethimng different. You can pre register ahead of time for $2.00 . on PWD day, you just check in and put your car through inspection.

If you wait til PWd, you pay $5.00 and you wait until the pre registered boys from your group check in. then you register, go through spec and what not.

Our cutoff date will allow us to order the correct number of trophy ( we can order extra ribbons, without ordering TOO MANY extra ribbons), and figure out a time line for our events much better. Plus the pre registering will steamline thuings and we can spend more time racing.less checking cubs and cars.

Hopefully, the extra $3.00 fee will prompt everybody to register ahead of time!

There are two distinct and different issues here:

1)Bullying and what can be done?

2) How bad have adults screwed up the system and how to fix it.

In the first case:

"Misbehavior by a single youth in a scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individula who misbehaives as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a scout unit abd CONNOT BE IGNORED."

"If confronted by threats of violence or OTHER forms of bullying from other youth members, scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or PARENTS."

-Rules and Regulations of

the Boy Scouts of America

Sound like you have all the official and enforcement you need, if you decide to use it, If the parents of the boys, or the boys in question challenge it, then in effect, they are challenging the BSA itself.

In the second case, if some adults had not interfeared to begin with, or had the structure and chain of command as well as authority of who can handle what was properly followed and taught to the boys, this might never have progressed this far.

The only thing that can really be done now is for the adults to stand up, grow a backbone and handle this situation. One it is handled and taken care of, there needs to be an immediate revamp of how things are done. Bring these boys in and tell them hoew and why thing are SUPPOSED to be done. Teach them what the procedures are, what the chain of command is, and who takes care of what.

Teach them that this is their troop. They run it, they live it, they enforce it. Parents are just a "watching from back here" safety net and guard against the occasional lack of sound judgement!

It's gonna be tough. No doubt about it. But it's gona have to be done.

Well, the more charges you have, the more you get charged with. Yeah, that sounds both obvuious and redundant, but make sense.

What happens to s parson charged with rape? They get ( for example only) 20 years. That is actually 11 years after considering things like parole, probation, reduced sentances and deals, not to mention things like time off for good behavior after finding Jesus in prison.

So 11 years seems like we might as well shake his hand, pat him on the back and give him a cigar.

So how do you keep him locked up longer? Toss in sodomy charges, afdd statutory rape on top of rape. Throw in things like criminal conduct of an officer of the court/public safety official.

You look for what ever you can to keep that man behind bars and counter act any reductions in time due to deals, "good behavior" or parole.

That's a by product of Al Capone. You know what he was charged with don't you?

Tax evasion!

Thats awesome! I see that as one of the highest forms of recognition.

You know, we can talk and talk and talk to the scouts about respect, morals and what not, We can drone on and on all day long. But you can't MAKE anybody understand or care, You can show by example, but thats it.

Congratulations.....you made somebody truely see and feel what you taught!

Respect can never truely be forced on anybody, but only earned.

You definantly earned it.

"As for the parents doing all of the work on Pinewood Derby cars, or other take-home projects, that will not change with the new program. BSA will not be mandating that every little thing be done in den and Pack meetings."

And you are absolutely right! BUT....at least during a den meeting the Cubs will get some participation in. At home, they probably wont. The idea I see behind this is: Any extra activity that the Cubs do at a meeting , is just that...stuff THEY do. And everything a Cub does himself, is one less thing a parent did for him.

Is the new program gonna be perfect? I doubt it! Matter of fact, I don't even know what it curtails. But if it gets any existing cubs more involved with activities, and put them in a position of greater personal participation...then it's definantly in the right direction!

As for cubs who do pretty much everything for themselvs anyway..they probably won't notice any change at all except wher it's done at!

WEll, my point wasn't entirely based on acheivements alone, but also teaching and living the scout values as well.

What I meant to get at is trhis for example: We had a "drive in movie" night. All the kids watched a movie ( Derby Down) and part of it was to take a cardboard box, and decorate it as a car/truck/train/ whatever. Myself, I helped my son buld a tank with true barrel and hatch. I helped, but I always make sure that my son does at least 60% of the work if not at least 85% of the work in all of his projects.

But at the movie, it was obvious that some cubs never helped at all. Matter of fact, it was obvious, that some cubs didn't ever see their cars until about 5 minuted before the meeting.

Why? Probably because dad wanted Jr's car to be soooo great, he thought it would be best if Jr didn't touch it lest he "screw it up"!

Now,this wasn't any elective or achievement. It was just fun. Fun for the kids to build what they thought of and designed. Just fun.

Apparently, even fun has certain "parent" minimum requirments of show.

Had this been done at the pack meeting, the kids would have actually thought of, created and built their cars. They may not have passed Highway Safety Guidlines, but there would have been fun as well as letting them use their imagination, get experience building, and doing things for themselves.

It is along those lines that I agree with more stuff being done at meetings instead of at home.

At the meetings, the Cubs actually participate in Cub activities!

Lisa, You know..there is no easy answer.

You could pro and con yourself all day and still be undecided.

At some point though, and as much as anybody hates to make that decision, you have to look at the greater overall good of the troop. You also have to ask yourself: "Who's troop is it?"

Is it worth ruining the experience for a group of boys for the "yet undetermined benifit" of two boys? Are you willing to losew members of the troops and parents too for the sake of two boys who just don't care?

As for "Who's troop is it?" , It's simple: IT's EVERYBODY'S TROOP!,and not just the two boys and their parents in question.

And looking at it from a survival standpoint, there are two issues I see:

How long will a troop last with only two boys? If all the other leave,, and the two trouble makers are left, what have you got?

Secondly, even if the two troublesome youth leave on their own or Eagle out, what will the rest of ( including future scouts) think of your troop? Your troop could get a bad reputation as one that condones bullying and over bearing parents. It will appear you condone favortism.

Again,not good for the troop.

So, there sre no simple , easy answers. But, you have to stand up and say:"HEY! THis is what we have and it's just not working!" Then fix it!

Okay, this might be the wrong forum for this question, so I apologize if that is the case.

I have a hypothetical question:

A leader cannot also be on a committee position ie; Your CubMaster cannot be the Committee Chair.

But lets inject a little bit of " REAL WORLD" vs "what we wish it was like"

.

You know what I mean? I know, that you know, that after all meetings, camp outs, fundraisers, or whatever, there is always that small handfull of people who stick around to help out. 9 times out of 10, they are also the ones who helped set up to start with. They are also the ones who ran around getting the wood, cutting the wood, and making patterns and what not for the Cub .

Opps! I forgot to mention that this is on the Cub Scout level. Sorry!

So anyways, you know from your own experience...it's always gonna be the same handful of people doing the work, or as I heard 20% working for the other 80% !

And in the same line of reality,. most of the people who do this, also happen to be your den leaders, asst Den leaders, Cub Master, asst Cub Master. etc.. on down the line.

Sure, you gain a parent or two each year, but also lose one or two due to a Cub crossing over to Boy Scout.

So here's my question:

Is there a time and place where you just have to say :"Hey, I can't help the rules, I have to serve more than one function or position in order for this pack to function!"

I mean, we all want to do what's best for the pack, the boys and everybody involved, but if only the same 12 to 15 people ever step up, and they all just happen to fill all the roles of leaders..what do you do?

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Well, I could not even begin to guess as why the change was made. I mean, I am now only in my second year of cubscouts. I volunteer as much as possible,and just recently became the ADL of my den.

The one benefit I see to placing more emphasis of reaching electives in meetings is that the scouts themselves might actually meet those requirements.

You know what I mean?

I have seen too many parents get "check off" happy and check off item after item just so Jr can add a few more beltloops or beads to his resume.

When I see a cub scout look at his car for the first time and that first time happens to be 5 minutes before the start of the pinewood derby...somethings not right!

Too many parents do stuff for the scout in order to make sure it's the best dam poster/ car/ t shirt/whatever ...that was ever done.

I see parents bring in the cub's books with 15 electives checked off since last week...and the cub has no recolection whatso ever about what the elective/ requirement was much less any single one check off item

Now, I realize it puts more "classroom" work on our DL and myself, but at least we know that the boys are involved and not over at a friends hous while dad put a 5th cout of laquer on thre pine wood car and mom adds the final touches to a poster that she workd on all week.

Eamonn: I see where you are going with this,and I agree!

Scouting is not a sex based environment. Heterosexuals do not get together for orgies or one night stands. Sex is not a merrit badge activity, nor is it regularly on any agendas or "to do" lists. It isn't sanctioned at meetings or camporees or jamborees.

Why people think having a gay person would suddenly change this is beyond me.

As a group, we do not allow any type of sexual conduct( straight or gay) to happen. THis is about scouting, not scouting out partners. Gay or straight doesn't matter here.

If people just stuck to that logic, then nothing else would matter,.

Again, I agree woith yoou line of thought...everything else is just a distraction or knee jerk reaction!

I will not allow my 9 year old son to be in bed with a girl right now. Scouting will not allow co-ed sleeping with a girl scout or girlfriend ( assuming he could bring one along).

Youth protection pretty much seperates the grown up from the kids, and only parents or legal guardians can share sleeping arrangments with their own kids.

So as it is, no sex of any type is allowed, recognized or permitted! PERIOD!

Now, as a friend of a gay person, let me put another perspective in front of them: JUst because a man is gay (or woman) - it does not mean they are suddenly going to hit on you for sex. Matter of fact, they are twice as likely to not hit on you as compared to your average heterosexual woman.

Now, I don't know about anybody else, but aside from the rare friend flirting...I have not had a female stranger just suddenly come up to me trying to have sex.

Basically put, my gay friend once told a man- afer being told that he better not try anything - "Don't flatter yourself honey...you are not evem all that!"

Seems like the only issue was the heterosexual man's ego! LOL!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

It's almost a technical thing: A convoy is an unbroken line of vehicles heading for a particular destination. Think of funeral processions or military convoys.All vehicle stay togethjer including not stopping for stop signs, traffic lights and other traffic. Usually, there is some sort of traffic control in place.

Now, if each scouter and parents know where to go and just happen to be in line, that is okay, as long as there is no convoy mentality. As long as ther is a break for traffic signal, road conditions or what not, all is ok.

"Has anybody seen my son? I dropped him off an hour ago."

'Ma'am, what was he wearing?'

"School clothes or something like that! Where is he? What kind of place do YOU PEOPLE run here? Shouldn't you have been watching him?"

From a mother who dropped her Tiger off on the first meeting after the school round up.

WE knew where her son was, he was having fun with all the other new kids while the parents were SUPPOSED to be in the meeting.

Here is what we did: While not "over rewarding" the kids for doing something, we had a bag of Dum Dum suckers and those red and white peppermint candies. For those two den meetings, when a cub that was called on got a part of the promise right...he got a piece of candy.

We only did that for two consecutive den meetings. That was at the beginning of last year when they were wolves. You can't find one Bear who doesn't know the promise, oath, and motto in their entirety.

One thing though... There is a difference between not knowing, and suffering from "Deer in headlight" syndrome.

My son knew the promise well. He'd walk around the house saying it to himself all day.

But if you stood him in front of the other scouts... he went totally blank!

Well, there isn't gonna be a "perfect fix" to this kids issues. His mom may say it's been a long time issuem but I bet neither her or the dad ever tried to correct or steer him differently.

Anyways, I have dealt with many people in various situations( wether work, fire dept, scouting) with this approach:

Tell this Scout that, although he is a PL, he is still no more than a manager , if you will. Think Corporations. Each office, compant, or section, has it's onw branch with it's own manager or head of operations. While this person may be in the same position as a PL, that person still answers to a higher authority. That person in turn, answers to a higher up too, And so on and so on until you are at the CEO or Board of directors. At this point, you can chart out the ranking of Scouting from National and your CO on down to PL APL, SM CC or whatever.

Tell him there are times when he may exert his "authority" but there are times when ( as in the outside world) you just have to follow the standard procedures of the higher ups. For some reason, this approach works well when all the rest fail.

Yeah, I told them that burning the flag was a cerimony to honor the flag. I explained that burning was honorable while just tossing the flag in the trash was disrespectful

The other night, I as well as another ADL took the kids through a flag raising ceremony. We let all the cubs participate in raising / lowering the flag, and folding.

Before explaining a few basic flag facts, I asked if any of them knew anything about the flag.

The immediate responce was "Don't drop it or you will have to burn it!"

Okay, so they are right for the most part, but not entirely.

I tried to explain the difference between letting a flag sag, fall off the pole, get torn down by disrepair, weather or just not caring versus accidentally dropping the flag or letting one corner accidentally touching the ground in the process of raising the flag.

I mean, if a 7 year old cub , in nervousness, lets one tip of a corner touch for half a second, I see no disrespect of any kind.

The problem is, the kids have it in their mind that if it touches, you burn it, and are almost too scared to even try to do anything with it.

Anybody have any suggestions as how to approach this from a different angle?

Oak, I agree! I like interpretation too...on MOST things.

I guess with the exception of a scout cutting his hand off, I'd like to leave it to the leaders to determine on a one on one basis for what Scouts do. My son my very well pass a NAVT SEAL sniper test witha BB gun, while the next scout of the same age, height, grade level may not ought to ever hold, much less own a BB gun because he's too careless with it.

Likewise, your son may earn a whittling knife as soon as age allows while my son may still be too careless at 18.

I'd like the den/pack/troop leaders be able to assess and judge each scout on his own merits and abilities.

WHAT? I'm agreeing? That's no fun! I thought I was arguing! LOL!

You know....right after I posted my comment, I thought to myself: "I bet he's being sarcastic, and I'll be the only one who doesn't get it!" LOL!

Not much room for interpretation?

"AVOID large sheath knives. They are HEAVY and AWKWARD to carry, and unnecessary for MOST camp chores EXCEPT for cleaning fish."

There is sooooo much room for interpretation here:

1) AVOID: Avoind, not "Prohibited" , Do not use" , "Not allowed" "Age/rank restricted" , or "Council/ District/ troop regulated".

I could go on.

2) Heavy: To who? You? Me? My son? Yours? That one is entirely dependant on the individuals strength, health, and athletic ability.

3) Awkward: Same as # 2

4)MOST: Most...meaning not all, and actually ( taken in the context written,very appropriate at other times.

5) EXCEPT: This one specifically cites an example, which is an extention of #5 which just implies that there are other circumstances of potential usefulness.

Now, I'm not saying anybody should or ought to use, have, possess or own a sheath knife. But to say - that sentance - gives any finite and defined answer is just incorrect.

I think it would be misleading to say scouts were racist, The official sanctioning body may have been at one time, but scouts as a whole probably were not.

It's a tough thing you know. Kids tend to grow up reflecting and eventually believing and living their parents ideals.

I was never ever taught or shown to be racist, predjudiced or sexist. And I am proud to say I abhor that kinf of rationalization or thinking. But let me tell you: classmates, friends andd co workers can be racist sometimes. Everynow and then, it's limited to jokes and attemopts at humor. Sometimes it's the core values of an individual.

Be clear about one thing: Racism isn't limited to white people either.

So what was my point? There may have been packs and troops that blended races long before it was "ok" to do it. They may not have been trying to be the first, break any barriers or anything else. They simply might have just ben scouting. Nothing more, nothing less.

UH-OH! Not another one of those "definant maybe" things from National is it?

I think itb is definantly a common sense thing: In Key West, Fla, isn't anything below 60 degrees extreme winter weather?

Like wise , if you live in Mich or are one of the scouts from Maine, I bet it's not considered winter untuil the snow has been on the ground for at least a month AND the temps drop below -25 degrees. Anything less might just be considered a "chilly " night.

I'd like to think it was a rule more to make each pack stop and think about what their particular cubs might be able to handle , because as adults, we tend to forget about the limitations that the kids have that we do not.

But that's just my guess.

Oh yeah...last year, the desserts were eaten up as just that dessert. The judging was held while we ate "real" food. Afterward, the contest desserts were stuck on the same table as the zChristmas dinner desserts.

This year, we decided to either take the ddesserts to a childrens shelter, an old folks home, or raffle them off and give the procedes to a shelter of some sort. Maybe a soup kitchen.