Scoutfish

The way I see it, the issue isn't actually wether anybody wore a 3 piece suit or showed up naked. The issue is showing mutal respect.

Now, if the scout just happened to stop by a EROB member's house unannounced, then the scout should most certainly deal with a manin jeans, yard clothes or even swim wear. No biggie except the scout showing up un announced.

But, to know you are going to have a meeting, for whatever reason, and to REQUIRE the scout to dress full class A, then it should be returned likewise.

These guys knew about the meeting before hand right? Then either buisness suit and tie or uniform is the rule.

OR..They can relax on their expectations of the scout who might just have come from his afterschool part time job or whatnot.

In the end, it comes down to giving respect as well as recieving it!

If you cannot give it, you don't deserve to receive it!

You have a great point there OGE: Look at MacDonalds. They bring out the McRibb sandwhich for a limited time. People flock like crazy and pay twice what it's worth. Then it's taken off the menu. They probably sell 4 miliion in 5 months time, yet had it just stayed on the menu, they probably only would have sold 2 million for the entire year.

But they could bring out the "new" 2010 badges, and keep them still available while in 2011, bring out the 4 "new" retro badges. Then in 2011 have the first 8 still available, while bring out the "new" 2012 badges.

In 2020, retire them again.

The answer would be no!

Each pack, or den can set their own standards as long as it doesn't weaken BSA's standards. Two deep sets the MINIMUM amout of adult supervison, not the maximum.

A pack, den, district or Council could make the requirements stiffer.

But I notice you said a county park is putting on this Jr Ranger program. So in effect, this is at the least, a county parks and rec function, if not a state run function. Maybe even National parks function?

In that case, the rules set by BSA don't matter, count or have any authorituy. The prk is runnimng the function, the park makes the rules.

But as a den or pack group, you have to follow the minimum set by BSA even if the park does not have any requirements.

I agree completely! Why not keep them currently active? I see no reason to mothball them either!

DEan, as far as pathfinding, wouldn'tthat actually compliment Leave no trace?

Buy finding and utiloizing an existing natural path , there is less disturbed natural environ ment.

Sure, this couild spark a debate about upsetting natural wildlife if the human scent causes the natural path to be abandoned, but other than that, using an existing path means another one wouldn't be created or made.

Okay,let me rephrase what I meant:

If BSA spends $5 mil on advertising by sponsoring a race team INSTEAD of $5 mil in a magazine, billboards or other places that are not currently working... AWESOME! I'm all for it.

Now, if BSA is spending $5 mil on top of what it already spends advertising..then no, I doi not like it at all. I'd rather see that $5 mil be taken off the price of uniforms, books, badges and what not in order to make it more affordable for everybody.

But , everybody should realize this: there is more than one league in INDY just as there is in NASCAR. Nascar's upper tier ( Sprint Cup Series) will cost about 20 mil a year to sponsor a team. But that was also before the economy forced teams to shut down for lack of sponsors. Now it's cheaper.

Then you have the secondary series ( Nationwide Series) It cost les to sponsor these guys. It cost even les for the 3rd tier ( Camping World Truck Series) You can just about sponsor 4 teams for price of of one Cup team.

And realize..sponsor ship is nothing but paying to have your name ona billboard that moves at 200 mph. Racing is one of the fastest growing sports, partially due to people not wanting to pay $400.00 for a ticket to see a baseball game in the nose bleed section.

Also, each team has a different price they ask just as ball players, actors and singers get more based on popularity.

Take a look at a superbowl commercial: $120,000,000.00 for a 30 second commercial right? But if it gets peoples notice, and they spend on that sponsor, then it's all paid off!

My experience with NASCAR has been this: If a fan likes a driver, and that driver stands up and tells you that he always uses BSA brand dirt in his flower bed.......his fans will not only buy ONLY BSA brand dirt, but will buy alot of it. And they will also buy any other stuff with the BSA brand/logo/ trade mark on it.

Again,if spending $5 million causes 10,000 new boys to join, who in turn bring in $10 miliion....it's money well spent!

Besides, does anybody know what a years worth of spending on advertising costs? Thinking about every billboard,phamplet, broshure, magazine, newspaperad I've seen...and figuring each town, city, county, state and the entire US...that's alot of money being spent. 5 Mil is nothing.

But that's assuming it cost the BSA 5 mil to start with.

Sounds cool!

Pathfinding: Still sounds appropriate for any scouts hiking in the woods.

Carpentry: Seems like we are doing woodworking projects all the time. In todays economy, fixing your own stuff just makes economic sense.

Signaling: I don't know about anybody else, but seems like my old trusty cell phone always loses signal about a half mile form camps, mountain trails or anywhere a cool adventure takes place. I see the appropriateness in this too.

Tracking: well, you could halp find a lost hiker or work towards getting a job as a crime scene investigator I suppose.

Honestly, these all sem to be MB that have practical and modern day uses for them.

Matter of fact, let a sun flare or a power glitch occure, those MB would be down right practical.

Any ideas if the military currently uses those same skills in Iraq, Pakistan, or Afghanistan?

Basement. Same here. My son is proficient with a .22 bolt action and a .22 semi. He owns a mid range BB gun which is catagorized as a "small game rifle'. The kind you can pump up to at least 10 times.

He has shot a .22 shotgun, a .410 and a 12 ga. The last being a bit too much based on barrel lenth wanting to topple him over.

Yet at a council or district camp, he can only use a spring loaded "You'll shoot your eye out!" Red Rider gun.

And he's horrible with it! The trigger is stiffer and harder to squeeze. He has to snatch the trigger even though he knows better.

He helps captain our 16 boat in the itracoastal water way. By that,I mean he's in full control of steering, throttle and direction.

Yet, he barely is allows to canoe at council camp.

NJCub; At our leader and committee meetings, we just wear whatever too. Jeans, pants, t shirts, sweats,.

No kids, no leassons, just buisness stuff. We all work to gether for the same goal , so there's no point in trying to impress anybody else.

acco40, You are correct in noting that this is for project approval. I didindeed miss that fact.

BUT....

"Any Scout that goes in front of the Eagle Board is required to be in full uniform including the MB sash.

The EBOR will not meet with them if they are not."

In still beleive that if the EBOR requires a scout to be in ful uniform ..EVEN FOR PROJECT APPROVAL..... the EBOR should follow suit.

Now, I think simply approving a project isn't that formal and there is no need for the EBOR to be in full dress, but likewise, if it's not that formal, the scout should not be REQUIRED either.

Again, I stand behind "What is good for the goose is goo for the gander!"

Other wise, the message is " Although I demand your respect, you are not worthy of mine in return."

And I may be wrong, but is that the message that BSA is trying to send?

"Is that the best use for our extra dues?"

ABSOLUTELY! If it works , that is. As a NASCAR fan, I love to see new sponsors in NASCAR. More sponsors mean more racecars, which also means more drivers, teams, support crews. This carries on down the line as a race team/shop has to buy stuff from anywhere along the lines of soap for dirty hands to high dollar shop equipment. People make this stuff, so in turn, are employed.

But to the most obvious aspect of it...Should BSA be spending that money?

Again...ABSOLUTELY. They spend money advertising anyway. phamplets, ads, signs, posters, etc. How many are effective and hopw many are never noticed.

How many are seen but ignored?

Find a kid that does not like some form of racecars, fighter jets, army guys ( yes, the generic term was meant) etc.

Sure, your average scout will never be within 400 miles of that car, but they will still tell their parents about scouting.

Remember TOP GUN? That was the all time coolest NAVY recruiting film of all time. The Navy and Marine Corps actually turned people away by the truckloads.

So, if it increases membership, and brings more youth into scouting...I say go for it!

Would you believe...the old stuff? My son and some of his friends are actually really into Scooby doo. Not the newer stuff, but the old original stuff.

On one hand, they laugh at how "Old fashioned" it is. But on the other hand, story content really held your interest back then.

I also agre with "Man of the House" . It's funny, entertaining, and will keep the kids interested with it's slapstick humor. But they will also get lessons in trust,respect, working together, and reaching your goals without even knowing it! LOL!

OldGreyEagle;

While I cannot speak for anybody else, my comments about the "volunteers" is this:

If they demand the respect of a scout by requiring him to have full uniform, then as leaders who are trying to instill respect, they should do so likewise. If not, they are sending a "Do as I say, Not as I do" message to the kids. A "The rules apply to everybody but me" attitude is the worst thing for any organazation...period!

Plus, that very attitude says :" Once you grow up, everything we taught you doesn't matter anymore."

So the scout may wonder why do they need to even bother at all.

Now, if the EBOR doesn't require the scout to wear any particular attire, then they themselves should not worry either! Let them all wear shorts and T's for all I care.

But so totally ignore or disregard a Scout due to their attire...well, you need to follow your own rules and lead by example!

So......do they really stand for something, or do they really mean anything?

That's a great question. But bigger question is..who decides?

See, I can drill The Scout Oath. Law , and Promise into my son's head day in, day out. I could make him write it 100 times a day and recite it 100 times a night before bedtime.

And what would I have done? Just add a lot of burdon to him.

I could try to lead by example. Again, he may or may not get it.

So if we aren't so biased by what we "think" it means, when do we decide if it means anything to them?

NOw, here's what I mean:

The whoile time I grew up, my mom and dad constantly got on me about closing the door, turning off lights, not wasting food and giving an honest effort when working at something. As a child and teenager, all I heard was blah, blah, blah and ocassionaly "I'm a dorky parent!" LOL!

But lo and behold, one day, I met a girl, fell in love and started planning. Soon enough, I got married, had a kid who in turn,is now a Bear cub.

Ask me what those words mean, and I might give you a different answer each day. But while you are asking, you will see me walking from room to room turning out lights, checking to see if the door is closed to the outside world, after spending a day at work where not only did I ive an honest effort, but also applied the same standards that I would have for anything I own or wanted( meaning if I don't accept my work, I don't expect you to either!).

So when did it all kick in? I can't say for sure with any exact certainty, but I'm willing to bet when I started paying my own bills for my own house and family out of my own check. I suddenly understood what it all meant.

No as for scouting, let you son misplace his last $10.00 in public. Let him realize that he won't buy that toy or game he wanted to buy. Then watch as that old gentleman walks up and tells him : "Here son,I think you droped this."

Suddenly, it becomes clear to him too>

So my answer is: YES! It does mean something. We just have to make sure it means it to our scouts, not what we "think" it should mean to them - AND when it means it!

SSScout, I think your example is indeed perfectly ok. It seems the boy only wants what he worked for and earned. I see no issues with that.

My own son joined as a Wolf and after earning his Bobcat and Wolf badges, asked me about getting Tiger. I told him that he couldn't earn it for two reasons:

1) The rules and what thy said etc..

2) It would be like taking a test witha bunch of kindergarteners who are just learing the alphabet - of course my son would ace it, but he was a few years smarter than the test age too. He actually understood that more than what the oficial rule.

Hey, whatever works!

But I am curious...as an Assit Den Leader who was never a scout... can I go back? I mean, I am a leader after all! LOL!

While I'm willing to bet you never find an absolute answer, I'm willing to bet it's more of an age based item, as well it should be.

Tigers maybe shouldn't be allowed to hold the reigns as they may shake them around and spook the horse. Know what I mean> At their age, Tigers see no difference between wanting toi be a cowboy and actually having learned to ride a horse and having experience.

Taking the reigns out of a Tigers hands is just a good idea.

With Wolves, maybethey can hold reigns,but still rely on an adult to "steer" the horse.

As a Bear, hold the reigns and even go outside of a coral, but still have the horse "steered" by an adult.

WEblos, well, maybe let them have control and be outside a corral. Maybe just riide within the camp /ranch area.

Then as Scouts. do the next thing such as actual riding on trails, through the woods , etc

Biggest thing is, judge it based on age and maturity.

Look at shooting sports:

.22 rifles are limited to Boy Scouts only. No Cubs at all.

Cubs can shoot BB guns, but only at Council/District events, no pack or den events.

Oaky, I'm only a second year parent, but I want to throw my two cents in:

Isn't achieveing the rank of eagle something that is to be highly respected ?

I mean, It's not just getting a belt loop for cleaning your room or reciting the alphabet.

I understand that Eagle is the highest rank achieved, and less than half of all scouts earn this. And I say earn, not receieve or "get".

Now, If I was to attend a Bar Mitzvah, a Christening, Or any other formal and solomn/ occasion, I most certainly would dress the part.

As a former officer on a Volunteer fire dept, I dressed in full uniform just to attend monthly town meetings, any public events, and especially any awards functions at the end of the year.

Even if the Scout wasn't required to be in full dress, the EBOR should, Other wise they do send the message: Sure, this ia a rare and coveted event, but I'd rather be at home or the local watering hole.

Seems to me that the EBOR wants the full reespect of the scout, but doesn't want to make any effort in the simplest of ways to show they deserve it.

Seriously, how hard is it to put that uniform on?

AQgain, just my two cents worth.

Now just wait til next year! Everybody sw what everybody else did this year..and now it's time to step it up next year..

Last year was our first ever "Parent/Son Cookoff".

Well I wanted my son to do at least half of the work, but as much more as he wanted.

So I chose a cheesecake. Figured he could do that no problem.

Well, my son did 90% of the work, and when you figure it's hard to screw up the flavor.

We used icing to make a 3-D Fluer De Lis, and surrounded it with our pack and den #.

He won in his catagory and grand champion.

So this year.........yep! a lot of cheesecakes! LOL!

My son didn't placem but actually learned something: He still had as much fun even though he didn't win!

But next year..........LOL!

BM, to add to what you were saying...When you have more than one den of the same rank, do they do the same projects the same way?

Meaning, does one den leader talk about nature, and use a book to show various trees and plants while the other actualy engages in taking his den outside and into the woods?

My pack has 4 Tiger dens, 2 Wolf. 2 Bear, 3 WI annd 2 WII dens.

Imagine how my son would feel if his den sat inside singing Barney songs while your den of the same rank sat and talked around an honest to goodness campfire while discussing ...whatever the dens were discussing that night.

I absolutely agree...having a weak or strong leader may make all the difference, and maybe this new program might help the weakers ones get stronger!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

We are a bit more relaved about uniforms anyways i suppose. For den meetings,you can wear your class a shirt or not, doesn't matter,You can just wear a pack t-shirt too.

For pack meetings,crossover events, campouts, Blue and Gold,or PWD, you wear the Class A: Shirt, hat, neckerchief, slider and proper belt.

As we are a cub pack, pants are completely optional. These boys will take a pair of pants that are 5 minutes old and go outside to play for 10 minutes and come back with both knees torn completely out.

Jeans do tend to hold up better than scout pants. Figure how fast these boys grow...well, whatever helps cut costs.

Biggest thing is trying to get them to understand about tucking in shirts and pride in their appearance.

"Basically put importance on the uniform method, without "stiff inspections", and above all ADULT Scouters properly wear the uniform. The best example is sometimes just seen and not spoken."

While my pack doesn't currently conduct uniform inspections, I can see issues that would arise just from the adult standpoint.

I have been to the scout store 3 times fot pants.They just do not have pants in my size. Likewise, being a new ADL, I ended up buying the new Centenial shirt. Trust me,I wanted the old shirt to match the existing leaders. The fact the old shirts were on a clearance sale for $9 was also a big factor, but again,out of my size.

So now I have a new shirt. Green and khaki numbers on it. My trained badge is green/khaki too. All the other leaders have nice bright red/white numerals/ badges.

My ADL patch in on my tech pocket which none of the current (read longer than a year ) leaders have.

I can wear a hat that matches my den, a leader hat or no hat.

I can wear a leader neckerchief, the Bear neckerchief, or a tie.

My choice. And each leader can choose a different variation too.

Now I am supposed to judge these boys on their uniforms, when the main idea behind "uniform" is that all are alike without variation? LOL!

The most uniform thing you will see in our pack is Koolaid stained mouths and grass in their messed up hair!

Now don't get me wrong... I have always taken pride in every uniform I have ever owned. Wether it just be a work uniform, my Fire Dept color guard, water Rescue tech uniform , or my Cub Scout Leader Uniform.

I just find it hard to Be "uniform" when there is no apparent uniformity to the rules! Just saying...there are way too many options!

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

My apologies!

When I asked who made final policy on what is allowed or not allowed, I meant as far as "offical policy" and what is ultimately printed in the offical scout books.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Basement, funny you mention the knives:

I had a few minutes to kill yesterday during our PWD woorkshop. I was in our scout building/shed/workshop and just happened upon an old colection of scout books. One in particular was a 1964 printed edition. No pictures...just all drawings. It discussed camping and what was practical.

Without quoting in any certain way, it basically said that sheath knives were not the most important/realist thing to have , but there uses had been proven to be ...well...useful and practical.

No where did I se banned,outlawed,disallowed or even shone in an unfavorable light.

But then within 3 pages either way, you could carry an axe, use kerosene and what not.

Oh, within a few chapters were a few paragraphs about smearing kerosene on chigger bites or shoes to prevent those bites.

I'm pretty sure scouts wearing kerosene would bring out the debate hounds too!

"The dirt Scouter gets offended when a policy affecting him is made by some big dog in Dallas who may not even own a uniform."

LOL! Sounds familiar! I used to belong to a NASCAR website that you were not allowd to mention,reference or spel certain NASCAR phrases that were commonly mentioned on tv.

The result of lawyers worrying about the super PC police. Members of this site would get so bent out of shape over the mods who enforced the rules. I'd tell them that most rules are writen by lawyers who wouldn't know a racecar if it ran over them, much less NASCAR jargon.

So, yeah...I totally get the concept!

Ahhh...isn't life great!

I have a question. I am only in my second year of being involved in scouting, and I am currently a Asst Den Leader for a Bear Den.

In order to be the best I can be as a ADL, I went out and bought leader books, activity guidline books and such just to help me out.

I cannot tell you how much I have learned from this site. "Real word" stuff that the books just don't talk about.

But tghis is my question: "Who actually make the final decisions on what is allowed and not alowe? Who make the final decision on policy?

Is it a collective of Cub Pack and Scout Troops across the Us? I mean, following the example of US citizens vote for house and senate who are "supposed" to represent us on a federal level.

Is that the same system in Scouts or does National just make up what they think without any input, reference or thought to what any consensous of scout troops and cub packs want?

Does my council make a vote on a state level which in turn is represented at a National level when policy is made?

I have no issues anywhere a this time, I am just curious.

We collect dues at the beginning of the year. $36 per scout.

That's $18 for registration, recharter,etc. and $18 for pack expenses such as awards, badges, and the first belt loop in any elective - all addituional belt loops are paid fro by parents.

As far as popcorn, well, I leave my house at dark, and usually get home at dark. I rush straight to meeting on den nights and pack nights. I do not have time to sell pop corn. But we have an opt out for fundraisers: Sell popcorn, chicken dinnertickets and wreaths , or donate $20 at each one of these fundraisers in leui of participation.

I still help raise money and usually give around $50 instead of $20.

The biggest issue with popcorn is that it happens right after scout roundup, and popcorn neds to be passed out during new scouts first pack meetings.

No biggie for the experienced scout parent, but very overwhelming to a new scouting parent!

And natualrlly, we have no problem for any parent chipping in to help pay for or donating supplies such as are needed for projects, wether it be lumber, glue,pencils, nails or just plain money.

I myself have started discussing maybe collecting $1.00 a meeting to help offset costs.