Rick_in_CA

I know that my council had a similar experience. For years the council had been talking to multiple groups about becoming COs (and donors), and the response was "we will once you stop being bigots". We have several Churches and Synagogs that have said they will charter multiple units when the BSA stops discriminating. Plus there are several groups that charter Explorer Posts that are interested in chartering boy scout units that won't because of our policies. Our council has been asking national to be exempt from the no-gays and no-atheist rules for years. The BSA shot itself in the foot with the halfway change. We lost several big donors after the vote because of the publicity "corporate didn't know you guys still discriminate, we can't support you anymore". We lost a few COs after the vote (though apparently only one went to Trail Life - I thought more would) but we only gained a few because the change didn't go far enough. Local control might cost us a few more (but it might not, I think we already lost those units), but I think it would gain us several. It won't be a flood of units, but nothing will bring that. It sure would make recruiting easier ("Put my boy in Boy Scouts? I sure loved it when I was a kid, made it all the way to Life Scout and was a member of the OA. But that was before the BSA was run by bigots. I don't want my son in that." (one of my neighbors a few months ago)).

Blaming it on NPR is simply silly. First, this story has been around from earlier in the week before NPR even talked about it. Second, Todd Smith wrote his letter on Monday April 30th, days before the NPR story. What you are seeing is the Governor beginning to try and back peddle from the pandering and "explaining" that he is being reasonable. As others have pointed out, the Army Times have been following this story for a while: From March 23rd: Conspiracy groups question USASOC mission in Texas. From April 29th: Utah governor: 'Jade Helm 15' training is standard exercise. To quote the Army Times: And we know the Army Times is just another conservative basher, right? As for local news I found: The Dallas Morning News: Former GOP lawmaker blisters Abbott for ‘pandering to idiots’ over military exercises. San Antonio Express-News: Abbott orders the State Guard to protect Texas from Special Forces troops. The Texas Tribune: Abbott's Letter Elevates Jade Helm 15 Concerns. The Houston Chronicle: Governor's Jade Helm letter' embarrassed and disappointed' Texans, former GOP rep says. These are just the first four local to Texas news articles I found, and all four support the narrative that the Governor issued his order in response to the conspiracy nuts. Sorry, this isn't a story "made up by NPR", nor is it a "fictitious piece of garbage". The "fictitious garbage" is the idea that this isn't pandering to conspiracy nuts.

I would love to see that, but I fear that it's a forlorn hope. Our society is moving in the wrong direction (look at PA's new background check law, or the hysteria over leaving children in cars), and we need big changes before we can get back to allowing youth to help in any way beyond token activities in a crises. Could you image this situation today? From the Milwaukee Sentinel - April 28, 1952: Today the boy scouts would just be moved out of the way. Plus, how many boy scouts even get any training on how to fight a wild fire now days? I did when I was a boy scout (not a lot, but we all got some basics). In fact our troop put out a small grass fire once (it grew to about the size of a tennis court before we got it out). It was out by the time the fire crews got there. Our troop was on top of it because we started it (a careless scout had just lit a stove and he threw the match into the grass - he thought it was out). I missed that camp out (was home with the cold I think), but I heard all about it from my troop mates and saw the photos of the aftermath. Talk about a lectures on fire safety! Plus the fire department came out and gave us all a refresher on fighting wild fires.

The thing you are missing, that for many religious conservatives (not all), the beliefs of other faiths do not matter. So that Christian denomination over there doesn't believe being gay is a sin? They don't matter because they are wrong. So those Buddhists don't see anything wrong with being gay? Who cares, they are just heathens (and are wrong). The Scout Law says we are supposed to respect other faiths? Sure, but their gay minister can't be a leader because they are wrong. The BSA is "completely nonsectarian"? Well..., but those others are wrong! It's their fault for not being "proper" Christians like us, so who cares about them? It is interesting that Trail Life USA split off from the BSA over the gay issue. But their own policy on membership vs. sexual orientation is almost identical to the BSA's new policy. The big difference? Christians only (and only "proper" ones).

Republicans pandering to right-wing crazies? I'm shocked! Ted Cruise is joining in on the fun: Todd Smith is my new hero: You can read his full letter here. Of course, he is a former State Representative. In fact, all the criticism of the Governor has come either from Democrats, or former GOP officials. Where are the currently serving GOP elected officials calling the governor on this? There has to be some right? At least one? They can't be all afraid of the crazies? It's just my Google foo that is failing right?

So the message that PA is sending is "we don't want people to volunteer in our state".

Find a bank that doesn't do that? You can't because this is how debit cards work. A lot of it has to do with the merchants, not the bank. For example, most automated gas pumps will put a hold of $75 to $125 on any debit card because they don't know how much gas you are going to pump (which means if you only have $50 in your checking account, you probably can't use it to buy $20 worth of gas because the preauthorization will fail). In theory, they will release the hold when you are done and they charge the actual amount. But some gas stations will wait until the end of the day before releasing the hold. Buy a group of things from an online merchant, it's up to the merchant how to handle the holds. Some do it this way: Buy three things ($100 item, $50 item and a $25 item) for $175. The merchant will put a hold on the debit card for $175. Lets say the $100 item ships first. They will charge $100 to the debit card, but leave the $175 hold, so now you are down $275 on the account. They won't release the original hold until the last item ships (so when the second item ships, you are down $325 for a $175 purchase). Good merchants won't do this (they will release the original hold and issue a new one for the lesser amount). Now bank policies can make this process better or worse so you are correct that good banks can be better here (many have a 72 hour time limits on holds). If you only use your debit card for transactions totals a good deal less than your checking account balance, the holds should never be a problem. But if that isn't the case, you need to know how the holds work or you can get burned (bouncing checks, overdraft fees, declined cards, etc.).

You do know that according to the tool use guidelines, a scout has to be 14 before they can use a post hole digger (or a wheeled cart)?

Actually, one of the issues with debit cards are authorization holds. It's not uncommon to spend $30 somewhere and find that $200 is "held" for a few days. That happened to a friend of mine. While she had plenty of money in her checking account, the bulk of the funds were "held" so she couldn't pay her rent. It's why many banks recommend against using debit cards at gas stations and hotels. It's one of several reasons why I refuse to have a debit card (even though my bank really wants me to have one).

Merlyn, I haven't seen the Clarke and Dawe stuff before. Very funny! Thanks for sharing it!

To those who think that bullying "isn't a big deal", a new study shows it can be more damaging then physical or sexual abuse.

One of the problems with check handling today (and this is not new) is that no one looks at the signature. You can sign the check “Micky Mouse†and it will go through because almost all checks are process by machine. People don’t get involved unless there is a dispute.

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the whole point. No one is arguing that we need to eliminate all embarrassment or challenges from the scouts lives, and to claim that we are is being disingenuous.

So some people are arguing that if done right, having kids sing or dance for items or other transgressions is all fun and games. That everyone has fun, and no one gets hurt. OK, but then why does it “workâ€? How is it a deterrent? If the kids just love dancing and or singing, why is it that it deters the desired behavior? Maybe because they don’t like singing or dancing in front of the group? Look, if we had a problem with swearing in my cub pack, and we told the kids: “We don’t want you to swear. So if you do, we will give you an ice cream cone that you will have to eat!â€. I guarantee that within 30 seconds one of the cubs would come up to me and say “Excuse me but #%#@&!. Can I have my ice cream cone now please?†I don’t see how “it’s all in fun, everyone loves it and has a good time†equates to “it solved the problem, they stopped doing Xâ€? And I think if you believe both are true, you are deluding yourself.

You are clearly a better man than I am Stosh, I would not have handled that garbage with such aplomb. If a camp staffer snatches the hat off the head of me or one of my scouts, my reaction would be that they either return the hat immediately with an apology, or police will be called and charges filed. I had heard of camps doing this, but I had no idea any still do. I'm dumbfounded! What stupid idiot came up with this idea? If they perceive that a scout is not showing sufficient respect, their idea is to heap more disrespect on them as an answer? By committing larceny? Have any of these idiots even heard of the Scout Law?

Wow, I'm not sure where to start. So making them dance improved things so they don't leave things around the camp? I bet beating them with a stick would have worked to, but no one (including you) would think that was a good idea. "It is all done for the fun of everyone", everyone but the scout dancing. You said: "They watch the scout that's dancing because they know it's embarrassing" so this is fun at someone else's expense? So how is that not bullying? And how does this teach scouts "how to treat someone that has a problem"? I am at a complete loss there. "...because someone thinks it's hazing"? Um, because it is? Snipe hunts, and sending scouts out for smoke shifters teaches them what? That the authority figures that are supposed to be mentoring them and protecting them can't be trusted because they will lie to them, set them up and laugh at them? Good lesson. Yes it is different then burning the pancakes, unless after they burn the pancakes you also make them dance? So we need to encourage our scouts to treat each other poorly because that will toughen them up for real life? And once again, this is fun for who? The kid being embarrassed? Deceived? Laughed at? Because we all know how much fun those are. How is deceiving a scout (sending him on a snipe hunt) honest or truthful? How is deliberately embarrassing him courteous or kind?

Bryan is completely right, it’s bullying! I have never been part of a unit that did this, nor would I be. But I do remember seeing it in another unit once at summer camp when I was a scout. If you could see the young kid singing with tears running down his face, with all the other scouts grinning at his discomfort, there is no question it's bullying. I didn’t know why his was singing then (and I actually don’t really know today, I am assuming), but I do remember thinking “thank God I’m not in that unit!†I do have a friend that was a boy scout in a unit that did that when he was a boy (you had to sing “I’m a little tea potâ€). So, what happens? The popular kids quietly return items when their buddies loose something. But they "help" the younger and unpopular scouts "loose things†(i.e. steal things). Then they sit back and enjoy the show as their targets get humiliated for “misplacing†something. Officially sanctioned bullying no less! So the kids that usually end up singing for lost items tend to be the weak and unpopular. Wow, great learning environment. Great way to model Courteous, Kind and Helpful. If you allow this, and don’t think this kind of thing is going on in your unit, then you are probably not paying attention. Plus, what is the “lesson†being taught? If one of your scouts sees a man drop his wallet, what is the correct response? a) “Excuse me sir, but you dropped your wallet!†or b) “Hey mister! You dropped your wallet. Sing a song and I’ll give it back!â€? And if you don’t think that is the lesson this kind of thing teaches, you again are probably not paying attention. I never understood this idea that behavior that would be considered rude or unacceptable when directed at a stranger is somehow fine when directed at our scouts. All scouts and scouters should be treating each other with kindness and respect. How is humiliating someone showing either?

A fun discussion! Is it possible for two contradictory ideas to be true? Take the following thought experiment: Given an all powerful God (true for many faiths). Assume that God created a 40 year old man five minutes ago. He created that man’s past (memories, parents, history, other people memories, current activity in progress, etc.) at the same time. So which of the following is true? a) The man is five minutes old? b) The man is forty years old? Are they both true?

True, but what if you aren’t aware of the emergency? This reminds me of a story I was told when I was a Webelos. A troop had been back packing, and were camped in a steep valley. They had no idea but a forest fire was heading their way about to cut off their only exit. It was their day-glow orange tents that saved them. They were woken up by a forest service helicopter and told to evacuate. They basically left most of their gear and ran. It was a near run thing. They were later told that the forest service had no idea a boy scout troop was there. The helicopter was flying past and had it’s spot light on. It was the flash of orange as they flew by that caught their eye and caused them to turn back and check it out. If the troop had not been using high visibility tents, the whole thing might have ended very differently. The story was very dramatic (especially to a 10 year old - lots of fire and smoke, the ASM telling the story was a good storyteller), and has stuck with me ever since. And one of the reasons why I want a high visibility tent if I go into the back country. I want to be easy to find, even if I think everything is fine.

True, but what if you aren’t aware of the emergency? This reminds me of a story I was told when I was a Webelos. A troop had been back packing, and were camped in a steep valley. They had no idea but a forest fire was heading their way about to cut off their only exit. It was their day-glow orange tents that saved them. They were woken up by a forest service helicopter and told to evacuate. They basically left most of their gear and ran. It was a near run thing. They were later told that the forest service had no idea a boy scout troop was there. The helicopter was flying past and had it’s spot light on. It was the flash of orange as they flew by that caught their eye and caused them to turn back and check it out. If the troop had not been using high visibility tents, the whole thing might have ended very differently. The story was very dramatic (especially to a 10 year old - lots of fire and smoke, the ASM telling the story was a good storyteller), and has stuck with me ever since. And one of the reasons why I want a high visibility tent if I go into the back country. I want to be easy to find, even if I think everything is fine.

The BSA sample projects section for the Hornaday Award, the eagle scout did four projects for his Hornaday award, one of which doubled for his eagle project. So clearly the BSA didn't object to the doubling up if they picked this scout to be the poster child for the Hornaday Award. Note, if you haven't listened to the mp3 interviews with this kid, it's worth it to take the time. It interesting listening to the issues and challenges he had doing these projects.

Maybe try increasing the contrast on your computer screen? It looks fine to me and I usually have a hard time with the modern dark gray on light gray silliness.

Welcome back! Your opinions are still valuable, so just right in.

Separate sleeping areas for the 18-20 year olds? This is getting ridiculous! Just call them adults and be done with it.

When my council discussed it, the cost to the council was $300,000. That was for one full time professional, and equipment. Maybe as GSMC was the initial pilot, all costs were born by National (it would make sense for a brand new program like this), but for the expanded pilot some of the costs are being born by the councils? Or perhaps what I was told was incorrect.