RememberSchiff

... wow ... 29 pages ... wow ... that's way, way past my pain limit to read. ... is this like some record?

Good point, more arguing than answering.  May be time to lock it.

Flag on the play, shifting the burden of proof.  It's the BSA's and supports proposition to change the membership requirement, therefore their responsibility to prove the benefit.

Let me know if you can find anything in the BSA Rules and Regulations which states the BSA is obligated to explain their decisions let alone any benefit.

It is the MBC call, not the SM's.

Youth vote. No parents or adults. Honor system. Or do it at the unit level like OA. I’d trust them more the parents. The point is the boys would decide. It’s their organization. The whole Boy Scout system is supposed to be around two key aims: character and citizenship. What could be more leader like than to make such decisions. And no I would not revisit old decisions unless they strengthened the program and the referendum voted for it. As my dad says, you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. I am afraid we are stuck with this mess and the problems coming. I just wanted you guys to know that the youth know what happened and in my unit we are not okay with it.

So ages 5 to 18, 5 to 21?

I know the scouts in my unit are split over girl members but I would bet a box of Clif bars they would vote membership for any boy regardless of religious belief or not. I could also see scouts voting who can be an adult leader.

Is this a pure democracy or a representative democracy? Who decides referendum items?

Would membership referendums be binding on ALL units, i.e., no local option.

The fun part for me as a scouter is the new boss is same as old boss.  I do not have a deciding vote with the existing system or your proposed system. 

Voting security (no Russians  ),  logistics, and cost aside ... Could you see OA running the vote?

When you say membership would vote, is this every Cub Scout and Boy Scout? Is it their Scout parents? Is it young and old scouters in those units?

The region(s) with the most voters will decide. My understanding that would be the West - Utah, California, Texas... What if New England sees their votes are pointless and spins off their own Scout organization?  What happens to CO's who feel they should decide membership of units they own?

Would you revisit past controversial membership decisions? 

More deja vu - 60's high school civics.

I see far more limitations placed on the program from leaders and parents than I do from National and the program itself. I still think we're very much in the driver's seat when it comes to creatning a program that the kids will enjoy and remember. 

I see just the opposite, units doing activities "outside of scouting".  Not unlike if Mom won't let you, ask Dad. 

Yes, Back Pack, good luck on your exams, even though you think people in their 50's are "old."  Well, in a few months I won't be in my 50's anymore.  Does that mean I will no longer be "old"?     

All relative, to me, you would be young.

@@Back Pack Good luck on your mid terms.

We appear to have a humor gap here.

I did like the Sadie Hawkins Day joke. Nov 15?

Some of the folks here talk a great game about Boy led but when it comes to issues like the future of Scouting you don’t trust them? I smell hypocracy. Either you believe in Boy led and the patrol method or you don’t. If you’re not willing to put the decision of who scouts let in to Scouting you then maybe such people should open their own over 30 adult scouting group and you make your own rules.

You missed by humor, but while revisiting lyrics past

I was once like you are now, and I know that it's not easy

To be calm when you've found something going on

But take your time, think a lot

Why, think of everything you've got

For you will still be here tomorrow

But your dreams may not

Give more thought to defining the problem and your proposed solution. 

My $0.02

We will get by. We will get by. We will get by. We will survive.

@@Back Pack  Don't trust anyone over 30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk6LL7LHZng

Schiff,

 

Baker tents--wow!  That is certainly "back in the day."  Those weren't very light either, if memory serves.  We were issued well-designed nylon red tents, each with a separate fly that could be used by itself on warm nights.

 

BW crew photo and wood fire:  check and check.

 

Ajax:  we used tetrox, which was applied in the same manner.  We were warned about the gastrointestinal danger of even a little bit getting into the food. 

Yeah they were heavy, but then I think everything we carried was heavy by today's standard. It was also cheaper yet sufficient, well assuming you can "cheerfully" accept blisters.

I was a Scout since 2009 and no one asked us who or what we wanted in our program. Wouldn’t it be nice if young men were elected to national office in scouting to make decisions for the rest of us under 21? It seems wrong to have guys in their 50s (no offense) to try to imagine what it’s like to be 15 these days. They can’t possibly understand that I don’t want my sister anywhere near my scouting activities. Ask my mom if it’s easier on her to drop off both of us at the same place or if she even cares. Every other day of the week we’re being shuttled across town. One more shuttle run won’t make a difference. Having my sister on the same camp out will certainly cause me to think hard about continuing in scouting.

Wow 60's flashback. Old enough to fight, old enough to vote...And eventually the  26th Amendment.

It really is!  So much has changed since I was a youth.  I've been trying to get back for decades but work and family commitments did not permit.  Then, lo and behold, events lined up and I found myself as part of a 2018 contingent, and my work scheduled allowed me to attend PSR-PASS.  

 

A good rule of thumb that applied to me:  if the last time you camped at Philmont, the standard was to cook all of your meals on fire, you'll learn a lot at PSR-PASS. 

My crew photo was in black & white. Cooked on a wood fire. Pot bottoms coated with Ajax cleanser for easy cleanup. Baker tents with no floors or screens. 

Stupid system gave you a neg rep instead of positive. Meant +1.

Wish I could fix software; you should be able to change your own vote.      Anyway used my vote to help correct. 

"Gays, Girls, God, a.nd Gouda. One by one their sacred shibboleths of scouting will crumble." -- Sir Baden Powell, 'Aids to Scoutmastership, Cheese, and World Domination' (intro) , Cheddar Gorge Books, 1919.

I have a 4G LifeToEagle cellular network

More at the link. I recommend reading all of it as it doesn't end the same way it began. The title gives you a hint.

Agree, there is more in the link and I too recommend reading his well-considered essay.

Okay then let's step down the tone and sarcasm. Some good content here.

Bill Bradbury was operating a tractor to level gravel that had been dumped as part of the road project on Iron Springs Road at Camp Tamarancho.

Bradbury reportedly pulled the tractor over slowly to the right shoulder to allow a vehicle to pass. The road collapsed and the tractor rolled off the edge.

Bradbury was airlifted to the trauma unit at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, where he was later pronounced dead.

http://www.marinij.com/article/NO/20171024/NEWS/171029895

Scout salute and farewell.

He will continue to have less time for scouting which he seems to be enjoying less. There will be weekend swim tournaments, SAT/ACT prep and testing, college planning and visits, schoolwork,...

Older son and I had a long talk about his goals and his plan to achieve those goals. At 10th grade, it was clear to both of us, that his time as a scout was coming to an end. His self-imposed burden of scouting with Dad, going to Philmont like Dad, becoming an Eagle scout like Dad, not disappointing Dad ...was lifted and he was a happier kid. We still had to work on priority and balance among school, sports, robotics,... but he achieved HIS goals. He will graduate college next spring with an engineering degree.

Younger son and I had a similar talk. His goals are different and so far he remains interested in scouting but he too prioritizes and balances.

Family first.

@@SmithsRow welcome to scouter.com. Great first post.

Precisely why we do not allow “moms and dads†on outings or in meetings. The youth lead and run things, if an adult is needed it is a registered Scouter that steps in. If mom or dad wants to register as a leader, great! But that means they have an obligation to the youth of the Unit not just their child. When they have the uniform on they are adult leaders, not Mom and dad.

You will eventually get called on that. As YP states "All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents..."

http://www.scouting.org/youthprotection.aspx

@@cwallenpoole welcome to scouter.com

Did it look like any of these? http://weirdnj.com/stories/jersey-devil/

 

I like the one that looks like kind of a cross between a dragon and a camel.

 

I have never lived in the Pinelands so I have never seen him in person.

From a distance, it had the body shape and red eyes of a Great Horned Owl. But it has much taller than an owl, it also had two arms. Its features beyond that, I didn't stick around to find out.

Happy Halloween...