Beavah

Hi tantheman209, Thanks for being willing to share. Often times one of the great services that can be done in memory of those lost is to help teach others. Few lessons are as powerful as those born of real experience. I don't know if you've ever seen accident reports like those in the ACA Safety reports or river anthology, or those in Accidents in North American Mountaineering? If you feel up to it, I'd encourage you to write up the accident honestly and objectively like these... and submit the writeup here and to the American Canoe Association. Some things to think about i

I'm wit evmori on this one. As scout leaders, our responsibility is to the program and all of the kids in it, not just this boy. Our advancement program and the Eagle award in particular lose their value if the example we hold out to other boys and to the community at large is a poor one. As with all of Scout Spirit, our decision should be based not on what is best for us, or best for one, but what is best for the group and the program as a whole. I've seen "temporarily remorseful" bullies passed as Eagles who lost us some great kids, some great leaders, and some great donors. A

Troops generally have these adult squabbles when there's no shared "vision" and they haven't done a good job screening adults. Never join such a program. No matter how well-intentioned you are, you're just adding to the cacophany of competing visions. And it's really not fair to the boys in that program who joined that troop, not the one you want to change it into. Find a different program whose "vision" matches yours, and whose style is a good fit for your son. Or go to a current troop "suspending disbelief" and agreeing to be supportive even when you disagree. If you can't do either

Sending a 10.5 year old, 4'8", 85 lbs boy out onto a rugged trail with a 40 lbs pack for his first camping trip extreme too. Yah, but dat's not da kind of "lightweight" that CA and Kudu were talkin' about. I think the point was that the 10.5 year old boy could do some backpackin' if he didn't have to carry the 20lb propane cylinder. With decent gear, that 10.5 year-old's pack should be less than half of the quoted 40 lbs; probably around 15. I'll admit to bein' an old geezer, but I remember backpacking as a 9 year old in the old YMCA "Trail Blazers" program (follow-on to Indian G

Nah, LNT is a private and federal education progam. While it does promote a general ethic, there are clearly some "wrong" ways to do things, and some "better" ways to do things in different areas, based on sound environmental science among other things. It's like da BSA guidelines booklets, eh? Not absolute, but a good scout or scouter should have a sound basis before choosing not to be loyal or obedient.

Well, lets see There was Plessy v. Fergusson (endorsing laws that provided for separate but equal accommodation for blacks and whites) which was reversed by Brown v. Board of Education. There was Olmstead v. United states (allowing wiretaps without warrants) which was reversed in Katz v. United States In Minersville School District v. Gobitis, the court ruled that Jehovas Witness children could be expelled from school for not saluting the flag state authority trumped religious freedom. That decision was reversed just 3 years later in W. Virginia BOE v. Barnett, following the r

The Christian-centrism of this thread is remarkable. I wonder watcha would say to a Hindu or other scout whose religious tenets included reincarnation. The equation changes a lot if those animals we have "dominion" over may be the souls of our great-grandparents or future children.

Yah, Meech. I get where you're comin' from. But wouldn't scouting be a lot more fun and effective if all your friends weren't turned off by the uniform and other silliness, and therefore joined up? We'd reach more kids, you'd have more friends to do cool things with in the woods. Is the cloth really worth holding on to if it loses you the person to wear it?

overall most of the adults were of the view that what we were talking about is not in the domain of the PLC Dat's too bad. You should add that to your list of things to change. Given a patient mentor and folks willing to listen, the kids would probably come up with a very similar Strengths/Weaknesses list. But theirs would be based on the better data set of living in the program, and they might surprise you with an issue you never thought of. They might not have as much outside experience to bring to the "solutions" part of the discussion, but they'd be pretty good at e

How do other countries deal with the issue of uniforms? Dat's all over da place. I know in Germany, it has been cultural taboo since WW2 to have kids dressed in uniform. Only very recently has a small subset of German scout troops been more open about uniforming. Quite a few European scouts seem to use a practical uniform consisting of just a hard-wearing outdoor uniform shirt. In poorer countries, uniforming is really not used much on a practical basis, except perhaps by a few "upper class" troops. Wearing just a neckerchief seems to be a fairly widely accepted "Class

I've never seen a volunteer-run camp, but it strikes me dat the people who take kids camping 12 months a year would do just fine at it. There's a much bigger Scout Oath and Law issue here, though. Honor, trustworthiness to donors, loyalty to volunteers, helping youth at all times... all these demand proper, MISSION-CENTERED stewardship of resources. It is a scandal to pay executives high salaries with donor $ (in a lush new office building) while cutting the youth programs that those fundraising and donor dollars were solicited to support. The scouters and CORs of your council n

Yah. There are lots of organizations out there of great service and value that do not need special clothing. Churches, service organizations, professions, clubs... It is perfectly possible for boys to feel a part of something truly special, worldwide, and bigger than themselves without wearing anything other than an "internal symbol" of commitment in their heart. And it's probably more valuable. Uniforms are for when other people need to identify you easily... like police officers or retail workers. It's hard to imagine someone saying "I need to find a Boy Scout" in the same way

Why would you force-fit kids enthusiasm and imagination into an adult-designed box? Sure, it's always easier if the adults just run things with shrink-wrapped materials. But dat's not scouting. Scouting is kids running things with hand-lashed materials. I've never met any troop anywhere that uses the shrink-wrapped monthly themes for anything other than pulling ideas from as they plan their own thing.

A common theme among our youth today is one of apathy. I wonder if anybody really feels that somehow kids today are any different than when we were growing up. Do we really think that evolution or the intelligent designer has changed the genetic code of "boy" in the last 50 years? If we're truly seeing more apathy and adolescent depression, then we have to look to environmental causes... and that means, we have to look squarely at ourselves. What are we doing differently to kids that has made them more apathetic? Overprotective? Lack of independence? Constantly being direct

Kids often don't know what resources/opportunities are available or where to look. Try "seeding" some ideas in the 2 months before your annual planning conference. Tell just a few PLC members about a cool possibility; give a couple of others literature on a great backpacking trail; etc. Those ideas will percolate around and some will come back with modifications as "their ideas." Occasionally plan half-day adult "side trips" on other campouts, or even an occasional "adult run" trip to introduce them to a new activity or area. Be an active partner in their game.

Yah, emphasize da good things like John suggests. There must be a lot of things "going right" for the older boys and more seasoned leaders. Spend at least twice as long on those things as on anything else. Then a brainstorm session on 1st year retention will be more welcome, and a real partnership to spruce up one area of a decent program.

Some people would consider cutting the corner off a totin' chit to be "hazing". I'd suspect that BSA has a much lower tolerance that what would be needed to qualify as a felony as you've described. Indeed. My point was that, given that "hazing" has a legal definition in each state as a crime, accusing someone in public of participating in "hazing" either means that they are guilty of that crime as defined, or the accuser is guilty of slander. In my state, accusing someone of hazing means claiming that they have intentionally and recklessly engaged in acts which endanger the hea

Whoa, der! "Hazing" is a criminal act in most states. I think y'all want to be a bit more circumspect before accusing fellow adult leaders of committing a felony. Lisabob, I think your son knows exactly what to do ... go to his BoR and answer the questions truthfully and honestly. Checking to see if a boy has fulfilled all of the rank requirements is only one purpose of the BoR. Providing an opportunity for the troop committee to learn about and oversee the program is another... and feedback like your son's is vital to that goal. Chances are your son's thoughtful comments will ca

I vote with Lisabob. Trying to pass ID off as a scientific theory is simply dishonest. Any Christian who takes living by the commandments seriously should be ashamed at lying in this way. At the same time, those who teach science must be mindful of the limits of their discipline. Presenting evolution as a theory, along with its wealth of supporting evidence/facts, AND the current areas where we don't understand, is an expectation we all should have of an honest educator. I have seen public schools and public school administrators be truly abusive to Christian kids, and get awa

Lying IS always wrong. There are times it might be justified as in the Anne Frank situation, but that doesn't make it right. Huh? Ya split dat hair so finely that I lost it. You must be using some interesting definitions for "wrong" "right" and "justified." In my lexicon, "justified" generally means "demonstrated or proven to be just, right, or valid." So if it's justified, that does indeed make it right. For those with a biblical notion of right and wrong, we must recall that the commandment is not "thou shalt not lie." It is "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy

Thanks Meech and Four for your comments. Your enthusiasm for your gaming life shows! My question back at you is: Can you tell us what we could change/improve about Scouting to make it as fun and addictive as video gaming? Or at least take a step in that direction? Was I on the mark with any of my observations? Or is it something "else?"

Gotta agree with Semper and Backpacker on dis. It's hard to locate a less efficient business model than the BSA's at present, or a NFP with a higher "overhead" than the BSA. I had to laugh at the DE who claimed that our council only had 15% overhead. The sad thing is he says it in public, which isn't so much funny as dishonest. But my favorite is selling capital program assets to raise endowment to pay executive salaries. It's like some kinda nightmare case study in poor financial stewardship.

Well, this hints at some more information from another perspective. "there should be a place set aside to specifically address what happened on the camp outs so that adult leaders dont only act with only one side of a story....if parents have complaints it will not only be told to the adult leaders..." So apparently there were complaints about the behavior of some of the PLC members which were lodged with the SM. Those complaints came not just from kids, but from parents. From previous postings, they may also have come from one or more ASMs. The CC's comment also seems to sugge

Back in da olden days, new scouts joined patrols. That was what the Patrol Method was about... it gave all of the PL's and APL's a chance to teach and lead; it gave all of the new scouts a bunch of older brothers to help them out instead of one overworked Troop Guide. We never changed. Works great. The first year's feel like and really are full-fledged members. The older guys learn patience and service. Advancement doesn't become a dysfunctional "class work to be completed before I can have fun." Patrol competitions are fair, and the new scouts may "put their patrol over the top" ra

I would think that not all segments of US society would use Mr/Mrs when talking youth to adult. Dat's true. One area where I've never seen anything but first names is in hobby or community clubs where both youth and adults are members. Community ski clubs, amateur radio clubs, stamp collectors, model aviation groups, etc.... all these are first name basis. So are most teen and adult hunters & fishermen up here in da north. Guess it just depends whether your troop wants to emphasize hierarchy or shared endeavor. Some kids and adults need hierarchy; some need more collegi