qwazse

Area VOA was getting into the habit of calling Venturing area gatherings "Summits". That noun fit nicely. But it is now being used for a specific lattitude/longitude where boy scouts will gather every four years starting in 2013.

Oh, and on the back-country trips, warn your parents that we may hike more than the planned milage so long as we're still in the designated wilderness area. We won't interrupt the youths' thought processes until they are more than a 1/2 mile down the wrong trail. (The helicopter parents learn to hang back with the Old Fart's patrol pretty darn quick.)

I confess being of two minds about the issue, and thus understand the GSS's ambiguity.

Some the folks to whom I trust my kids in a heartbeat smoke regularly. I love sitting around the campfire after the boys are in bead, letting them light up, and hearing them relax and reflect on the day.

Nearly all of those folks after age 40 can't handle more than two miles with a full pack on rugged terrain. I want what the tobacco has taken from our boys and girls! I want parents to see how wonderfully their son or daughter perfoms with their crew after 8 miles of rocks and bogs. I want to share with them the sight of a ten point buck that walks into our camp while the kids are playing cards on the forest floor after supper.

If an all-out ban would get more parents back-country without losing those precious moments at summer camp, I'd be all for it. But I figure if the previous paragraph won't getcha to ditch the 'baccy or lose the pounds, legislation from on high is going to alienate you. I'll settle for your company in the fore-country and the quality time you can offer my kids when we're there.

Don't forget the handbook! The "lecture" time gets cut in half if the boys in each patrol pass the handbook around and reads the instructions, each boy reading one scentence to their patrol. (I guess I'm in the don't-even-bother-with-groups-of-20-plus-boys camp.) Then, as a group talk about what was read (use props). Don't lecture longer than it took to read it. Never cover more material than can be read by a 12 year old in 10 minutes.

This is not so usefull for knots, more useful for map, saftey, and first aid. Regardless, by making the boys look it up in the index and read from the book, there's an outside chance they'll pick up their books when they want to learn something they haven't been taught yet.

I'd still group boys into patrols right after the demonstration. The new scout patrol has several years to learn this stuff, so I wouldn't worry too much about them. I would have a troop guide for each new scout patrol, just to help with the reading, repeat the demonstration, and guide the ones who are actually trying to perform the skill.

Each instructer then observes 3 or 4 patrols as they work the skills. He picks the patrol that is having the toughest time, re-demonstrates or guides, then rotates to the next patrol if time allows.

Wrap all this up in 30 minutes. Remind them of the page in the handbook. Let them know that patrols who are interested in more practice can arrange to meet with an instructor during an open activity time. (This means you gotta allow time for an open activity, or allow 1 in four troop meetings to be an open meeting where each patrol can pick their activity.)

I guess what I'm saying is with 100 boys, narrow your personal attention to the ones who really want to be taught. Encourage your instructors to be looking for the "teachers" and "learners" in each group and to not be discouraged by the boys who aren't there yet.

Like the shampoo instructions "lather rinse repeat". If the boys know this is the routine for every troop meeting -- or each morning, afternoon, and evening period on a campout -- you'll have fewer glazed over eyes.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

I'm sorry, V. I had no intention of saying you held low regard the scribes who worked most of their lives to promulgate a few lines of text for a few select readers while we so easily type as much for millions to read in a matter of seconds. To be fair your mention "progressive" faiths favor conferring full church rights to homosexuals shows bias. Why not "permissive" rather than "progressive"? But I digress.

I just don't see everyone adopting a liberal theology (nice link, by the way) as "what it will take" in OGE's start of this topic.

First a lot of people aren't buying it. For example, "non permissive" Presbyterians currently censure those who ordain homosexuals. That's because liberal theology at its worst presumes that who we are outshines who the ancients were. At its best it assumes the ancients would have liked who we've become. Regardless, it tells moderns "don't just pick up a Bible and read it! You need *our* help." As you know, the level of mistrust is more than palpable.

But if they did buy in, what about shifting sands? Let's say a religion globally changes its stance on what is normal sexuality, everybody falls in line. Who's to say they wont lead "the flock" in a different direction 50 years from now? That's what happened to the Roman empire for centuries.

"For instance, for those of us in the latter camp, it has been well-established that Ephesians probably wasn't written by Paul at all but was written much later by an author who was trying to prove to the Romans that Christianity wasn't a threat (as the Romans had taken Christianity out of the protected Jewish fold and deemed it an "unlicensed" religion). Just one example."

So, then, for those of you in "that camp", was the Roman's 1:27 opinion on homosexuality Paul's, or was it from some unnamed second century religious hack whose opinion we have license to disrespect because it was only held dear for 1800 years instead of 1900?

Sounds like wanting religion to follow instead of following religion.

Eagledad - Religion won't have to be outlawed -- just watered down.

Establish the "old farts" patrol. Get them obsessed with cooking meals in their own patrol, and everything will be just fine. Make them think they have to be the model and their site has to outshine the boys' in cleanliness, camp gadgetry, and aroma of food.

The "distance rule" helps.

While we're spewing random facts ...

"1) Natural - the FDA can't define this term so why should we attempt to? Does homosexuality occur in nature? Yes, in humans, mamals and even some creatures are hermaphrodites! Celibacy in not natural in humans, yet some religions hold that up on a pedestal!"

I know far more celibate folks than I do homosexuals. I think there are stats to support this (although I haven't read the latest). So by the numbers celibacy is more natural than homosexuality. You may happen to be situated in an area where it is the other way around, so your world view may think abstinance is unnatural. But from where I sit the "need to have a sexual expression" is a unique and presumptuous form of cultural oppression.

Higher numbers does not make one behavior more natural than another.

Science can report on what may happen in nature.

Natural selection can explain why it persists in nature. (BTW, evolution also allows for things like suicide to have genetic origins.)

But neither statistics, observation, nor very sound theory are sufficient to identify a human behavior as natural (i.e. acceptable and welcome in a free society). The reason: humans have shown themselves to be extremely flexible in their behaviors.

Chazz,

My knee jerk is that since the kids are shrugging off awards, the advisors may be too. I think from a UC's perspective you may want to sit down with the advisor and crew president go over bronze award requirements and see how close kids are to being recognized. The advisor might be too critical of the requirements, or maybe it's too hard to get all the kids on the roster in ther room at the same time to nail this down.

You might also want to factor in that crew membership is quite volitile, so rather than counting rostered kids, count "likely to recharter".

Also (and this may be the lightning rod issue) if a youth is cross registered with another unit and advances there, do you count it twice? For example a boy in my crew made life in the troop that he's in. I'm not expecting him to get a bronze award. I want our crew to support, not hinder, him getting his bird.

All of this is fine and good if you like runny stuff, but ...

I got a stove top espresso maker from the local Italian foods store. (Bought two, actually, one 3 cup for backpacking and on 12 cup for when the van is less than a mile from site.) Pick your favorite beans, have them espresso ground. What I like is no filters: the coffee grounds sit in a basket above the water chamber, and the flavor is expressed through the steam as it passes up and is condenced in the recieving chamber.

When I really feel like roughing it, I bring along a set of little porcelain cups.

I'd not to direct the boys to websites. But, if they come up with a mascot they really like, I'd look up what's there and print the options.

This summer, our older boys came up with the patrol name "Hey Chris" (after their SPL). The whole point was for the PL to be able to, at roll call, step up and say "Hey Chris, all present and accounted for!"

I'm hoping they don't parlay this into a flag and patch!

Chaz, I like your liberality. Unfortunately, it only applies to crews with a narrow focus. In my general interest crew, I got kids gaining diverse skills left and right. It would be really hard for me to guage advancement. (I probably should have four crews, but advisors for each are kind of hard to find.) I'd rather do without the ULAM than have something that may mean one thing for me and something completely different for another advisor. Keep it simple. Count medals. If you doled them out to 6/10 of your crew members this year, give yourself a star.

I really don't think seeing a star on 1% of Advisor uni's is a problem. If somebody really cares, they can put a petition together for a lower target, but keep in mind that if it goes through, one day folks will put up posts harkening back to "the good 'ole '10, when a star really meant your crew had some serious bling!"

Camping in Wilderness = Cool

Organ at Full Stops = Cool

Scouts Logging Video of Jambo = Cool

Jazz in Worship = Cool

Carping about how other people do stuff = Uncool

Went to and presented at an APA meeting once. Mostly serious stuff goes on about dealing with primary mental health issues and the best way to deliver the best care. But there are thousands of presentations. The book of abstracts alone is overwhelming. So, yeah. If you're looking for something to prove your point, it'll be in there. In fact much of my talk was replying to comments about what could and could not be gotten from the data presented. Fortunately, my topic was not headline material, because in those 30 minutes there was plenty of room for misquoting.

Love the Kinsey reports, but I'm sticking to one wife -- even if by nature I'm a polygamist. My religion, pocketbook, and Mrs. #1 all indicate that it'll be nothing but trouble otherwise.

4 years, no advancement. I'm fine with some other advisor getting a ULAM because he/she has a crew of 8 that focus on one area so he/she can track requirements without going insane.

I'll focus on identifying six key outings so each of my 24 kids get outdoors at least once this year, getting them to recruit the next generation of venturers, getting some of them to council VOA, and seeing each of them have fun and grow a little.

If, after all that, you can't tell that I'm an advisor to the most dynamic crew in my council because I got no gold star, maybe you can tell by the smile on my face!

Ditto to all the ideas regarding crew members dating. Main point: discipline is up to the officers of the crew. We advisors strongly encourage them to write bylaws to cover that in advance, but it usually takes someone's emotional drama ruining an outing make it happen. Definitely touch base with your crew to know its rules and history.

Wingnut's comment only comes officially into play for adults.

Like sbemis and emb brought up, if either of you are near 21, the "No fraternization rule" will come into play. It's a BSA National policy, and it's there because we don't want Advisors, or Committee Members, or Scoutmasters dating youth. Take the average age adult and the average age youth and that behavior sounds predatory, but it's not unusual in couple of venturers who've been with the program for years for one of them to want to lead a crew, troop, or pack as soon as they turn 21.

So, the couple in this situation would have to decide if they want the older one to postpone becoming a BSA adult leader until the younger one is of age, or if they want the younger one to leave the BSA until he/she can be an adult leader. (Here's hoping they don't both leave the organization!)

Nike - I had a female committee member give our 14 y/o crew girls the backpacking instruction. She focused on personal hygene in a way that got them over the "gotta have the hot shower" mentality. I wish I had written down what she said, because her talk was excellent and completely different than how we would do it for boys. (You know, for boys: "You WILL bring soap. You WILL bring toothpaste. And you WILL bathe once and brush twice on this trip.")

SSScout - Thanks for the link. The search box on that page brought up a description of one backpacking course for leaders. I'll see if this GS council has something of the sort.

Just talked to a mom who came from GS camp. She already put three boys through the BSA program, so when it came time to divide funds from cookie sales for camp fees, she did it based on individual sales (which is not GS policy, I'm told). All the girls in her troop showed up for camp and had a great time.

Another troop that went by protocol and divided their sale funds equally among the girls who signed up for camp, had half the girls cancel with NO notice given to the leaders. I could make a reference to an -ism here, but I know that'll spin another unnecessary thread.

So, I think the pay-your-own way approach may or may not impacts the kids. But, it does impact parents who may act a little more responsibly because, themselves or their son having worked hard for those funds, they will make sure the kid goes if money was put down, or find a refund or sell their ticket if they can't.

Public education is about

1. producing a literate workforce,

2. producing consumers who can read advertisements,

3. self-promotion.

If your business/government beureau has benefitted from 1 and 2, no point in complaining about 3.

The majority of your laborers or clients that you have employed would not be literate if they had to pay for their own education or count on some charity paying it for them. The wheels of capitalism would grind to a halt.

So yeah, a successful public education will teach a little entitlement (laborers can read their paychecks and levearge for a better deal, consumers can smell the snake oil and demand more for their money/votes). It will also promote itself so everyone feels they gotta chip in a chunk of change to keep the engines running.

But, I'm not so sure private or home schooling wouldn't do the same.

SN - Our troop's gear is available to any responsible GS unit in the community. (Lord knows, we've been blessed with plenty, and they return the gear in as good a condition as when the boys borrow it.) But, backpacking does not demand much from troop stores. (E.g., we ain't haulin a two-burner stove, a lantern, and a 20' cooking fly anywhere by foot!)

Our crew is starting to accumulate a small collection of packs, and may eventually have some ultralight stoves, ultralight tents, etc.... But, older teens tend to be proud, and borrowing personal gear is not in their ilk. And their money is starting to go to other things (homecoming/prom gowns, etc ...).

WCS - My daughter (and a bunch of other young women in the Venturing program) had similar experiences. I'm proud to say that she still "mixes it up" and spends far less time at the mall than her GS peers. It's a shame, b/c I think GS becomes unnatractive to a certain segment of youth because the program doesn't challenge them.

Tent-averse moms are a serious issue. I've talked to moms who raised kids in the '50's and they are ashamed at how their "granddaughters" are being deprived of wildnerness experiences. I've had dad's who've given me the line, "If there ain't a shower, count me out." But at the end of they day if their kid was interested, they'd rough it.

But, seriously, are there GS mom's who get their Jr. high girls into a little backpacking? Because I am really interested in having some of our crew promote it to GS troops, but I am also not interested in reinventing the wheel!

What I've seen missing, and it puts the GS coming into our Crew at a disadvantage: is experience backpacking. The disadvantage is somewhat physical, but also financial. From age 11-13, Boy Scouts have been aquiring the backpacking gear and practice that they need by the time the serious wilderness hikes start to become available to them.

A 14 year old girl who has to go from nada to a full pack of equipment is facing sticker shock for a hobby she is not entirely sure if she's cut out for. The alternative is to borrow big-brother's hand-me-down, and those of us who've used loaner packs know that can add just enough pain to the equation to want to end it after mile 2!

Do any of your GS programs incorporate backpacking education targeting that Middle School range?

NC

It's not a group that bans homosexuals outright (at least not until they apply for unit leadership). And our youth are trying to sort out these issues (as much as they are trying to sort out religion, the opposite sex, proper engine mounts, etc...).

So, being able to filter the BS from the central issue in light of massive cultural shift is pretty time consuming.

The answer: yes.

The real question: does it matter?

For example, some colleagues are busy learning how to coax adult stem cells into regeneration. If, after years of hard work, it manages to grow back a missing leg, it doesn't matter if you are born that way or lost it in battle. We all would probably want you to get a missing leg.

However, the lot of us (who can read this blog) are born without wings. Not sure the majority of us would countenance trying to grow a pair -- regardless if on some level we could argue there's a natural tendancy in some humans to want to fly. We can argue 'till we're blue in the face about if that tendancy is innate or acquired.

Likewise resolving how much sexual preference is inherited or acquired does not help us deal with wether we should confer rights and privelages on any particular preference.

I split Seabase fees with my son. He did chores (including renovation projects) to earn his half, but when it came time to pay fees, the portion that he earned got left in his savings account. The fact that he could earn $ if he wanted to was good enough for me.

Bottom line for our family: a kid's primary job is to do very well at school. (Getting a 'B' or less = you flunked.) If they pull that off and some basic chores and the police aren't knocking at our door, they'll get a pass on having to earn every $ they spend on activities. I do let them know exactly how much I am paying for stuff, and if the money can't be spared, it won't happen.

Result: he is not a deadbeat. He is on the dean's list in college, and works the summers for his spending money and part of his tuition.

I have seen other "part-time job since age 12" kids completely incapable of building up any savings because they had a mindset that everything they earn is theirs to spend in the moment.

That said, I'd rather have a kid find a part time job than do fundraisers for every activity he's in.

... my son would not have as many friends from different schools and in different grades.

and if it weren't for venturing

... my daughter would not have sat around a campfire discussing the manufacture of explosives ("you just don't get that in girl scouts").

... my daughters' friends would never shout "Mr. __, we love you!!!" to me in the middle of a carnival.

Still not entirely sure if those last two count in the + or - column. Just putting them out there.