qwazse

It doesn't sound like capability was the issue. Otherwise the point of contention would not be when to cruise, but rather to cruise at all!

But, this brings up another, more personal, approach to Mrs. X.

"The other youth and I are getting the impression that you lack confidence in our ability carry out our responsibilities. Was there anything that we did that gave you this impression? What can we do to regain your trust? We would like to restore things to where the brunt of the work from planning on down is in the youths' hands. How can we act to rebuild that relationship?"

If she realizes that her actions convey something that she doesn't intend, and that it affects you on a more personal level, she might be more sensitive the next time. Plus it opens up the conversation to give you an idea of what you might do differently. (E.g. log minutes from your skype conversations ASAP.)

Without this kind of conversation, your Skipper may manage to reset boundaries so the adults "behave", but they can wind up feeling rejected when what we really want is a little personal growth on everyone's part.

Tell your young adults we appreciate their contribution to the BSA. It keeps registration costs down for the rest of us!

So do all of the seabase medical forms I circulated two months ago still work?

Engine - I'd consider 60 a big troop. That said, it probably could benefit from leadership in "there's-not-a-patch-for-that" areas. I wholeheartedly agree with the above suggestions.

Also is a venturing crew available to these boys? POR's while serving in a crew count. This can be more of a hassle, because ...

1. Crew officers may have a different standard for holding office. Joining a crew just because you need a POR may be a non-starter, unless the boy backs it up with real work. Upon board of review, the troop committee may need the boy to explain a crew POR in more detail than if it were a troop POR where they may have seen the fruit of his labors.

2. They boy may be intimidated by leading older youth in a crew or he may simply not want to be involved in Venturing.

3. The paper pushers at your council may be in denial about recognizing PORs from a crew if the Eagle Application is primarily through the troop.

Anyway, this may be an option for one of your boys if you can can coach him in 1, he can overcome 2, and you are willing to stand by the him in 3.

OGE - Our venturers/SA's only pay one fee to whichever unit they are primary. They are a multiple of the other unit(s). I leave it up to the boys to decide which they want. Another advisor in our council automatically registers his boys as primary with the crew when they turn 18 and it's up to them to push the adult application, which costs nothing since it is a multiple application.

PE - "Special provision" for Eagle's must have been a local rule. All of my young ASM's growing up were not Eagles.

Regardless, National only gets $15/year from each of our members. We don't pay extra (not even $1) to promote a youth to adult in the same unit.

Some adults require constant reminding to take a step back.

I'm one of them, and have learned to take my cue from certain adults, ignore others, and lay the law down to others.

To buy yourself some time, think of something really challenging that your crew does not like doing but probably should (recruiting, generating promotional materials, attending district meetings, getting adults trained) that you can ask Mr. and Mrs. X to take on.

The other way to approach this is to become real sticklers for Robert's Rules or some other parlimentary procedure that governs who has "voice but no vote." Build it into your by-laws. This has some down-sides (one being that it hasn't caught up with the internet age), but on the plus side it lays out how plans are to be submitted. (E.g., "I'm sorry, but a motion to approve attendance at the regatta was never made in the advance of the time required by our by-laws.") Cuts out the adult/youth distinction. Reminds everyone of how to give due courtesey to everyone else.

... riding jblakes horse a little further ...

EDGE also assumes there is no reference besides the teacher. That's why I'll sign off on the teaching method requirement if a scout tells a noob to read the Handbook, then shows the Handbook, and the boy does the Handbook. If that boy who just taught that skill can't remember what EDGE stands for, I'll probably offer him some chocolate as well as my initials.

... oh and for tossing kids in deep water ... ability groups trump teaching method. If you've been explained and demostrated by the best, you ain't any further along than the kid who did some light reading about strokes the other day. You're "first jump" into deep water may be within reach of a guard's pole, but you're the one being tested. Either do, or go back to the safer area.

1T: In some situations, I can agree with you. But my read on the situation, and I could be wrong, is that the young PL lacks confidence. In that case, letting him come to a wrong conclusion and failing is worse than forcing him to come to the right one.

It depends on the "fail". Sleeping on a pile of rocks really is not life threatening. On a ledge with a 50' drop ....

So, for the young PL who makes that first time tough decision, at the end of the weekend let him know that you are proud that he kept his patrol safe from harm. I usally end with " ... and I promise to never treat you like you're a girl scout." (And for you GS fans, I know that many come to my crew competent ready to lead, but let's not tell the boys!)

For crew activities (which often do allow for lots of failure on an individual basis) I have chocolate bars as "epic fail" awards. That tends to blunt the pain.

One more piece of advice, have fun! Here's an example ...

Have your boys pick an activity that they would like to do with/for every 5th grader in your community (ski day, night hike, bb shooting, catapult building ...).

Publicize it in your school. They usually have a student directory. Invite every boy. Your sixth and seventh graders might want the chance to skip school and visit the elementary school.

During the event recognize any boys who happen to be Webelos and are finishing their cub scout career.

Hand out BSA applications to all guests. Let the Webelos know that their transfer fee is only $1.

You get the idea. One less B&G in a scout's life will do him more good than harm.

Why should dues paid by a Tiger parent be used to pay for another scout's patch and a $20 - $40 plaque?

I agree. Drop the plaque. Maybe even drop the Webelos patch. Explain (if anyone asks) that some folks had a hard time keeping up with pack dues, so you decided to go old school and focus on essentials.

That will probably be the most likely decision when you lay out the what's in the treasury and what the net expense is of crossing over.

Also, consider going to monthly dues (at least for Webelos) the following year.

Our troop usually waives dues for cross-overs (we just take $1 transfer) with the understanding that the boy is a member in good standing with the BSA. If he is not, he has to pay the full price for registration anew.

We catch up with troop dues at the end of the year, once the young man has decided that we are worth maintaining a membership.

So, you might want to touch base with the troop committee to see what they are expecting.

In advising about by-laws, point out that the ones worth making are ones that won't get thrown out on appeal.

Or, to put it another way: "No point in legistlating anything that'll only make a lawyer rich." (No offense, Beav.)

Eagle007 - Just handled a "jaded beast of jealousy" issue with two boys who (before a mutual friend became one's girlfriend) were best buddies! It took months for everyone to readjust, and because the young lady was *not* in the crew, I think it made matters worse.

Be it Venturing or other movements for youth in that age range, I've found those "morale dampeners" to be rare. For each guy or girl with that kind of drama going on, there are dozens who grow into their relationships without much drama at all.

Same with the 16 y.o. officer. She may need to back off the program for the sake of school and the baby. Her character may be unbecoming of an officer. But there is no one-size-fits all formula, and the CO and other officers have a big say in how it plays out.

The "value", such as it is, involves working closely with the Chartered Organization to be sure it is represented well, and helping youth take their place in their community.

Married? Pregnancy is a welcome event. At 19, it's downright common in some parts. In fact I recently met a regional VOA officer and her husband in that exact situation.

Engaged? You're definitely getting teased for jumping the gun! (And I still call dib's on the baby during officer's meetings!)

Some serious issues might be how to act around the 20 year old who's been married for two years and has yet to concieve. That happens too, and if you have a bunch of older venturers, they might not get how hard that can be. (It's likely their first experience with such a charged situation.)

Part of the "fun" of being a crew advisor is working with these young adults as they experience these very issues. Sure some of the high adventure stuff needs to be tailored to physical ability. But the program isn't "belay on" 24/7.

P.E. - I sort of think that's how it would play out in our crew. As far as social convention, each teen pregnacy that I've known about in or community was managed differently. (Lots of different social classes, religion, etc ...) That's why bringing in the Charter Organization for a little guidance is important.

E-007. - No offense taken. Trust me before I started this gig, I thought the same thing. But, there was no "separate but equal" option. The nearest girls-only crew was miles away. Girl scouts was not promoting an outdoor program the way my daughter was expecting (having seen what her older brother had). Maybe someplace else there can be two great outdoor programs, but as long as the best is defined by the BSA (like it was in our community), you will always do one sex or the other a disservice by sending them elsewhere.

Eagle007: But why we are co-eding these kids up in overnight settings is beyond me. ... But why put an alcoholic drink in front of a recovering alcoholic? ...

One thing I've learned over the past 5 years:

Girls are not honey, and boys are not flies.

The co-ed outdoor program seems to give promiscuous impulses pause. I don't understand why, it's just what I've observed.

Whereas, a Saturday afternoon at the mall seems to heighten it.

Crew/Pack/Troop: Married couples typically tent together.

My wife endured a lot of disruption this fall because I had to repeatedly go adress curfew violators. Still, she chalked it up to one of the best camping weekends she's ever had.

BDPT100, never saw my approach as liberal. Good Book says the Almighty sides with the poor and fatherless ... guess I'd better follow suit.

On one level, I don't like the hypotheticals. On another I think they do help us improve our frame of mind with the youth.

I'm not touching the early termination scenario. Partly because it brings me to tears, but mainly because it's unlikely that it would occur out in the open. The likes of us would never be told.

Married youth are a grey area in sleeping arrangements ... but the nice thing about a crew is that discipline the officers' responsibility. I'd advise the youth and the couple involved to sort this out ahead of time. They may decide that for the weekend the husband should be "one of the guys" and the wife should be "one of the girls." OR they may decide the couple should bring their own tent or pay extra for their own cabin.

BD for the same reason you would want their tent in the adult area, I would want it as far away as possible. I remember one National Park where a couple should have tented a little farther away ... I almost felt like applauding ... (the Mrs. threatened to slap me if I did). We went through the next day a little short on sleep because of that one!

For a couple that is half over 21, the no fratenization policy kicks in. But on the ground I'm told it can flex a little. That's been discussed elswhere in this forum.

OGE: I so wish I could have that conversation with every parent. More often than not, parents foolishly listen to their kids when told to just drop them off. (Needless to say, the ones who stick around for the "open house lecture" are the ones who keep bringing their kids back.)

But, our community is rife with gossip. There doesn't need to be a baby in the background for any parent to know my youth have baggage. I'd almost prefer that something as glaring as a baby would appear for every youth's misdeed. All the cards would be on the table when mom or dad signs the registration form.

So, yeah, if the CO insists that we go gently with a young lady (as I think it would), and the crew instists that they'd rather manage the hassles involved in keeping the new mom in ... then I'd probably volunteer to watch the VP's baby while I introduce the program to any parents who care to listen. (Always had a soft spot for the little crumbsuckers.)

The sucking sound of departing parents who think their Johnny or Janey was too good for my crew would be music to my ears. Why? Because the parents who do stick around are the ones who will get us throught tough times.

True, DR, but most officers (regardless of what they say) want to be held to a higher standard.

Like everyone said, the young lady will be lucky if she has time for venturing. But, one of my daughter's soccer teammates really wanted to be part of her team even after she got pregnant, so her and her mom tried to make it to every game (as spectators, she missed too much of the season with the baby due right in the middle of it). Then in the winter she was back on the court.

Point is: if it's a priority with the youth and her parents, they'll find a way. It then boils down to the officers, the CO, and the advisor deciding if they'll find a way. Parents wanting it to be otherwise are welcome to start their own crew.

And, yes, the advisor might have to get acquainted with the baby's father and figure out where he stands in all of this. But in our society in this day and age, it's usually up to the parents.

Also, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.*

Look at the school calendar to see if there's an event (e.g., a carnival or open house) where your boys could provide a service. If you're lucky, the contact-person for the event might also be a cub parent.

*No pun intended, honest!

Read the book.

Show the book.

Do the book.

If a boy can "Do" confidently the same day after going through the above teaching method, he can usually perform a week after. The trick is to get him to go through those steps with another boy shortly thereafter. (Oh no! There's no place to sign off for teaching each skill to another boy. Double Oh no! It doesn't spell EDGE!! My boys are doomed!!!)

We allow ASM's to sign off, but we don't want to see signatures from a boys parents. (Uncle? Well, we're trying to sort that one out!) Even so, when a boy asks us for a sign off, we usually send him to his PL. The PL's are trained to see the skill performed. All of this run-around usually causes a "re-testing delay" without making it very formal.

I don't wear uni pants in the winter. Vintage shorts and thick socks is a lot more practical. I slip them over a pair of longjohns if necessary. Boot grommets can rip pants to shreds.

But your modification makes switchbacks ulititarian to the point where I just might think of changing strategy. Where do you keep the lower leg if you take it off?

BSA24 - Your rant about uniforming is a paper tiger. My crew doesn't have a uniform and it has shrunk. Getting a "gangster look" is not going to attract more boys to scouting. How many boys are out there who will say "Finally, they changed their uniform to something I can stand to wear! I think I'll join."? Rather, I think they'll say "Scouts trying to be cool again. How lame."

I haven't met anyone who has passed on scouting because of the cultural/religious issues you mention. My impression from where I sit is that there aren't a whole lot of boys who will say "My homosexual uncle can be SM?" Or, "no more duty to God?" ... "Let me in!"

I think most of the people for whom this is a hot button issue have had more than 30 years to create youth movements of their own. They have not done so.

Your points about finding out how to create time for kids to participate are spot on. A lot of school clubs run late into the evening. A "community night" would sound absurd to most people I know.

clemlaw If some cartoonist draws a set of cartoons about various faith traditions and knocks on the door of BL and tries to sell them, they might actually be pretty good, and BL might buy them.

Not all traditions approve of visual media for presenting their religion. (I'm sure there are some sects of Judaism and Christianity that find cartoon Bible Stories offensive. But, the majority of muslims for example frown on any renderings of their prophet.) That said, an occasional article on a minority religion -- especially one by/about venturers persuing their trust award -- would be useful.

BSA24 I'd think that in 2010, and with obvious Buddhist and other faiths participating in Scouting, that it's time to rename the series and include stories from faiths around the world rather than just Bible Stories.

Not sure I would ever take the "Bible Heroes" title from the strip. It grabs the interest of boys who key into such things. And it allows young cynics like Clem to skip over it. It's like asking Kahuna to delete "the Sangha" from his opening scentence at the start of this thread and replace it with "my religious community". It denies him the right to declare where he's coming from and prevents us readers from understanding how his perspective may be more than just his own.

I would rather have a story from a minority faith tradition framed in its own right. It gives the boy the right to decide if he's interested in reading it. It also doesn't insult the minority faith by forcing it to be on par with a tradition that it may find offensive.

Pack - Not sure if Fr. Foster's quote referred to any OT passages or just some specific Catholic dogma (e.g. Dec 25th the true date of Christ's birth, the doctrine of Hell, or Church opulence as essential to it's veracity). But anyhow ...

BP - Misinformed, unscholarly, or otherwise, many MANY folks have found inspiration in Old Testament stories. Most feel their kids are better off for reading them -- even if it may be one a month in a non-religious setting -- even if they believe they are mythic in nature -- even if they stem from a culture or religion completely alien to them. Thus, they are a regular feature in Boys Life.