qwazse

I try to be very clear with new adults that a lot of what we do are "troop policies." They are written down in a troop handbook which even I barely take the time to read more than once a year!

Some of those are for the convenience of the SM and can be altered at his discretion.

Others have to do with the opinion of our district advancement chair. We could ignore his advice, but he's a nice guy -- so when he tells us about "red flags", we make policies to steer boys around them.

Those latter policies are what seem to be out of an SM's or committee's hands. They come off as hard-and-fast nation-wide rules, but they aren't.

Not sure where your former SM got his rule from, but if it's worked for your troop this long, no point in abandoning it unless your current SM feels like his hands are tied for no good reason.

BH: I think it's pretty clear, that -- because of recent court decisions -- the city, or the unit it charters, would attract scrutiny that may get in the way of running program. (We might want it to be different, but like you said "that's another quarrel" that, if you form a crew, can be fodder for an ethical controversy.)

I'd go for the chamber of commerce alternative that Bevah suggests. You seem to see a need for a Crew and/or Troop in the community. And that 13 - 20 age range naturally has a lot of direct interaction with local businesses anyway.

Here's what amuses me about this thread ...

BL does in fact give a lot of ink to stories and legends beyond the Bible Heroes half-page. I learned a lot about other world-views -- including Native Americans -- from reading BL. (I learned a lot more, and far more accurate, info from the writings of Christian missionaries, but that's a different story.)

So, what everyone was up-in-arms about is the fact that stories amenable to most Christians, Jews, Muslims, Mormans, and a few other sects routinely get a smidgen of ink! Heaven help us if boys from different religions across the country discover they might have something in common with one another!!!!

Or, maybe those particular stories are more powerful than folks want to let on ... Maybe there is something to "a storytelling tradition that was designed and needed for a small culture based in the Middle East" THAT PERVADES THE BELIEF SYSTEMS OF 3/4 OF THE WORLD'S POPULATIONS.

Yep E. that's basically my experience,

My VP-Program started an FB group two years ago, and I don't think it has helped communications much. The FB group is basically youth run, so it doesn't consume much of my time, but it would be a nuisance to me if I ran it.

In fact, the youth who do run it don't do much with it. I guess they think it's a waste of their time too.

It is useful for ...

FB users who are part of the group can put a link to it in their status (e.g. "... came from an awesome trip with @Unit 123" ... when you type an @ sign it disappears and a link to the user/group you type in can be selected).

Tagging pictures.

Events ... you can invite a group, if a member is on FB, they can click a button that says their coming.

Things to keep in mind ...

- FB should not be used by kids under 13. So if it's those boys you're trying to reach, don't count on it happening.

- FB subjects youth to a lot of media parents may rather them not see.

- Different youth use FB differently, some may even block notifications from your unit's group!

So, even if you have a unit FB group, you will still need E-mail (I use Google Groups to keep a mailing list my unit can share), and will still probably want a website.

It is truly unfortunate when personal grievances "lock in" group policy. Sometimes, you have to settle for turning things part way, not 180 degrees.

BTW - The coffee (or herbal tea, whatever) suggestion has nothing to do with duty or responsibility. It has to do with servant leadership, being the bigger man, recognizing your SM as a brother in scouting.

Don't worry Gary, I never require my youth to make my "preferred" beverage. I generally brew my sludge on my own time. But the ones who do make it (however watery) get an extra couple of minutes of my time when neither of us are barking orders.

Ditto that. But, when they do come up with a decent plan, I'm sticking by them.

It is nice for the SM to be available for every campout. Parents are more comfortable, and I suppose the boys know how to "work the system" if the same guy with the same sleeping habits is running these weekends!

Now that I think of it, T&S, your committee should plan a weekend or two where the SM is required to stay home!

There's something just wrong about a "paperless" sport requiring a pamphlet.

You just hit the situation that we all hope passes to the crew/classroom/team/church youth group down the road. The way you phrased it, it sounds like you're not the advisor. So first thing is let him/her know you're going to stick by him/her in this situation.

Like OGE says, have your advisor talk to the CO because you in a way represent them. They may be of special help if they are a religious institution and the young woman's family is of the same belief. So, get the boundaries from the CO of what you may or may not do in this situation.

Then, "discipline in a crew is the responsibility of the crew officers." So within the boundaries of the CO, help the advisor convey your options and ask for their advice. They may tell you that this has nothing to do with crew life and you should go as easy as possible. They may tell you that the young lady is misrepresenting scouting and want you to come down harshly (something that I think most institutional heads will NOT want you to do).

Finally, tell the parents that 1) the BSA has no stated bans on heterosexual fornicators -- the behavior is only prohibited on overnights(implicitly FWIW) in the GSS, 2) this is a youth-led movement and you expect them to stand by your officers, 3) your actions are within in the bounds of the wishes of your CO.

Let's face it, this may result in parents wanting to have nothing to do with your crew. Encourage them to a) try and grow through this situation or b) seek out a more "compliant" CO and start their own crew. We really don't have enough of them to reach all the kids who could benefit from the program.

P.S. - My personal opinion (informed by my religion) is pregnacy out of wedlock is proof of God's blessing in spite of our sinful nature. If it boils down to siding with the poor and fatherless vs. high and mighty, I'm choosing the one scripture says the Almighty will favor. Just sayin'.

Good luck with that application! I think you'll be in as good a position as any to resolve this specific problem.

Making the invisible visible is a matter of finding out how data moves from a ship's paper charter to the list of data the web page calls upon to make its map.

That means making a few (maybe a lot) of phone calls and getting to know who does what. In the process, you may find out who to put in touch with whom to make things work even better.

Sounds like you just got a plank in your platform!

The scouting.org website is frought with data-flow problems. So, when you call, ask if there's a way you can be part of the solution. Your council Venturing Officer's Association could use the leadership, I'm sure.

I found it really hard to work with Sitecore (the BSA backbone), thus our "new" council website is painfully lacking. I'm still a successful page deployment away from being able to train our VOA secretary in using it.

They finally purged the database of inactive or "paper only" crews. So now my pin is no longer overshadowed by non-existent units!

No new prospects from it. But at least I have a visual representation of where my neighbors are!

After I clicked verify ...

The two warnings the YP was not done were for adults who had YP.

No warnings from adults who did not have YP.

One warning came from when I added a 14y.o. 8th grader. Guess the programmers never got the memo about the new Venturing age requirements sent out last May.

Still, better than pens.

I think the thrust of the advice is to keep working with the SM.

That's because going "up the chain" to oust them usually has unsatisfactory results for both sides. (Lot's of adult threads around here testify to it.) Let your CC attend to hearding adults towards fundraising, tracking advancement, and recruiting. Definitely keep her on the sidelines when it comes to your issues with the SM.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned: coffee. When you have these

"discussions", make it the way your SM prefers. When it comes to goals, there's always compromise, but it's palatable if a nice warm drink is involved.

From the posts, I don't think Fox jr. was anti-Venturing. He was just opposed to it being hoisted upon him. Sounds like the new troop gives him options (6 patrols, a venture patrol, and a crew). And, hopefully how those options work out for any given activity (separate or together) are left up to the Troop PL's and Crew officers (e.g. one group invites the other with enough advance time to minimize conflicts).

A boy may be happy with the many "slices" of scouting (patrols, crews, OA chapters, etc...) under one roof, but one thing he won't like is to be "pushed around". Once, an ASM suggested that I automatically sign up every 9th grader in the troop to our crew. I nixed that idea. I figured the worst disrespect I could give a boy was to deny him the privelage of pushing his own paperwork!

short: ... but the fact is that many of the boys will be distracted by her presence. ... Sounds like an argument for banning cheerleaders from football games.

The Steelers dropped their cheerleading squad a few years before they started winning Superbowls.

I've seen:

- the nurse (at my childhood scout camp) distract all the older guys in my troop.

- young moms be a distraction to male staff in cub camp espcially at the waterfront.

- dads (Eagle Scouts, even) knowlingly attempt to distract female guard on duty in the aquatics area. God bless the staff, she sent him packing.

- a female staff distract a male staff to the point he didn't get Eagle, did marry her, and joined the marines at the standard pay grade.

- a female staff frustrated about the rumour mill.

I've also seen:

- Oustanding leadership from the female staff (regardless of age).

- Creative female staff who added depth to the program.

- Seasoned aquatics directors in whom I could trust our boys.

- Solid team building, real personal growth, and role models that last into the school year for some of our boys who were on a co-ed staff.

So, yes, there is a price having to manage opposite sexes. It starts by demanding your boys stop drooling and show a little respect. And that is definitely a hassle. But, on the whole, I think there's more to be gained by not scraping "the bottom of the barrel" of young men (if you have any incompetents left to choose from) just to fill spaces that could be held by more competent young women.

I'll admit, I'm preaching to myself here ...

Two instances where tour permits - especially the drivers info - served us well ...

1. On a trip inside our district there was a serious accident. Arriving at our destination, SM was informed by police, but not which car or whom. (It was that serious, the seargent had a lot to deal with.) Using our copy of the TP, the rest of us could identify that info. We could also quickly mobilize council resources to help us.

2. While plowing, a ranger dented the fender of a boy's parked car. Using the council's copy of the TP, the responsible executive had all he needed to push the claim filed first thing Monday AM. We could go on with the weekend "worry free."

If any of the TP info had been falsified, communication would have been slowed, and we would not have been effective in dealing either situation. And I assure you that parents were grateful that paperwork-after-the-fact was not an issue in either case.

So forget the insurance connection. The purpose of TP's is communication. Fill it out right, fill it out partly and send ammendment to your service center the day before pulling out, or don't go.

And MT, tell your son when anyone asks you him lie, walk away. Try not to cuss while doing so.

'nuf said.

everyone excepts you for who you are

True. We don't accept you. We think you're exceptional!

I know nothing of the GS program except what my co-advisor tells me (she's a gs mom). My daughter was bored by it. (Her leader would have nothing to do with camping.) So we missed out. However, the girls coming into venturing from GS do have impressive organizational skills. When they organize an event for a crew it gets done. Not so for the boys at the same age.

Why? Because at 14 or 15 most BS have been PL, maybe one is currently SPL. Mobilizing a patrol of 8 or even a troop of 3 patrols is not the same thing as mobilizing a crew of 24!

Oh, and why the outdoor program? Probably the most significant descisions voters in the USA will have to make in the next decade will have to do with land use and fishing rights. I would rather my youth have walked those lands and swum those reefs before they run my country.

IMHO - an average size troop should hold CoH twice a year, spring and fall. If SPL's are elected in Summer and Winter, this gives them a couple of months to nail down opening ceremony.

Frequency of CoH's has nothing to do with the quality of the program.

Frequency of excursions, on the other hand ...

No plaques please!

Take a turn as chaperon for my co-eds. Come camping with us!

My wife would like to have me for an evening, so dinner out works.

Once you aquire the $ to support more kids on superactivities, you can worry about reimbursing me. Until then, I'll work the expenses through the tax code.

Actually free proffessional accounting would be great compensation.

Platy - sounds like things are going in the right direction, it may take more than 6 months to be where you want them, so ...

#1 have fun. Hopefully your adults will recognize everyone needs a little coaching now and then. BTW, it's not a matter of votes on a committee. Usually a good committee will go back an forth over ideas until an arrangement works out that is fairly acceptable to all. The UC might facilitate this by showing how other troops do it. The ASM's might by saying "I heard this from the boys ..." or "they seemed really encouraged when ...". But probably everyone will decide to allow things to play out over a couple of months without pinning the SM down to hard-and-fast policies.

Come to think of it, this is how patrols work as well. We're getting some chilly mornings, eh? I remember as SPL/PL, nobody stood around "my" fire to watch me light it. If they were cold, they collected wood. If they didn't, I stopped working to light the fire. "Oh, I saw you just watching me, so I figured you wanted to get down here and light it on your own, I'm going for a walk. Let me know when you've got it set up to light ..." [exit stage right with your matches]

Follow your SPLs lead in whatever drama he needs. Whatever enforcement of yours the PL's ignore, nature can provide. (P.S. - if the forecast is good, don't sweat the tents.)

#2. Learn to make the coffee for your scoutmaster the way he wants. Get him to relax in his favorite chair faced away from your campsite. Ask him to pow-wow with the adults over politcs or religion or something boring ... Ask him to hollar over if the SPL fails to check in hourly. Tell him you'll send over any boys who need an "emergency SM conference."

You get the idea ... I can't emphasize that first scentence in #2 enough. Frankly, as chapter chief, it should be one of your objectives for every unit under your sway.

Add to this: if fundraising is not meeting budget, cut the budget, which in effect offloads expenses on youth.

When are crew started there was a lot of hypothetical "fretting" that we would be a burden on the troop treasury. So, we started our own treasury with the money garnered from the "complimentary" leaders' lift tickets. There've been a couple cash donations here and there as well.

The youth turned their noses up to fundraising. I know parents that tried to encourage it, but lacking a youth willing to head it up, I asked the parents to stand down. Turns out, 14-20 year olds are pretty good at finding "real world" jobs for the things they deem important. They buy, beg, or borrow the equipment they need.

So we have enough margin to provide seed money for a small project (e.g. printing uniform t-shirts to sell later), and are collecting for the next high adventure from those participating. Besides that, we run lean. No scholarship funds, etc...

This strategy is secure in the sense that we've got the usual expenses covered for a year or so. The trade-off is some kids don't have a strategy for setting aside funds. A couple have "priced themselves out" of the next superactivity.

from the time a Lad joins until he ages out is a very long time and there really isn't any kind of a rush. (MomToEli, that's done with HTML tags < i > stuff in italics < / i >, which I think should now be part of communications MB!)

I suspect the SM as gatekeeper has to have that attitude. Things can pile up and wait. He must really love paperwork. But he misses out on watching his boys imitate him: "Sir, will you sign this off?" "Did I see you do it?" "I can't remember." "Can you do it now?" "I don't think so." "Well then, we've just answered your original question ..."

I know that as an SM/ASM/PL team with an advancement chair to review, we still are challenged to keep on top of it all. But, the SM and I would rather put our effort in the tough cases (getting a disability waiver for a scout who can't swim ..., awards of merit ..., etc ...).

We have limits on number of req MBs from one counselor and we don't want parents teaching their own kids a req MB. We do lose parents over this. (Not so sure we're losing the kids, but sometimes that may be the case.)

Bottom line for us: the COR will not weigh in on this, so it's the discretion of the SM. Since the BSA gives a little flexibility in this issue, we'll trade the discomfort of all the other adults (myself included) to let the SM be satisfied with how he's doing his job.

So I am hearing a few possible of strategies:

Sign off after the first 30 days if the boy makes a "good faith effort." Folks in this camp justify it bytaking it for granted that some boys just don't have it in 'em. (None of these folks said they'd require written agreement from a physician, the parent, and - most importantly - the boy.)counting 1/2 pull ups (guess that means recording the degrees flexed the first time)give jocks some slack because they aren't cleaver enough to scale it down on the first try

Follow the requirement to the letter:maybe interpret "show improvement in the activies" to not necessarily mean "each of" -- as long as the rest of the activities improved.Give the patrol some activities with physical challenge.Tell the kid to join wrestling and toughen up.Maybe after improving on everything else the 1st 30 days, help the kid do focused stuff the next 30 days.Set up a plan focusing on all the other T to FC requirements and let the boy know you'll hit that one hard when that's the last thing holding him back.Do the requirement yourself (yikes!!) so the boys have a role model.No slack for jocks. If they come down to 50 sit ups one month, they'll probably be back up to more than that the next!

I was just at a formal suit-and-tie function where medals on your lapel were par for the course (a la Bevah's original definition of "Court-esy"). ... and most of the conversation revolved around how you got your bling. In addition to an award pertaining to the institute hosting the meal, I threw on an Eagle medal and a venturing leadership award.

Rather than setting myself "above" or "apart", it gave me an opportunity to talk about scouting and the great programs it offers.

However, the most meaningful award was the smallest: my "Eagle dad pin." I hope my youngest son noticed.