qwazse

99.9% of the time, a person will use EDGE in one form or fashion without even knowing it.

So why require one to follow it? What are the ill effects on someone who is taught by the one scout in 1,000 who doesn't intuitively use it? In other words, why waste the ink? The text-message answer to those questions is a resounding IDK.

Counter example: More than 50% of the time, I'd wager, the intuitive instinct when seeing a distressed swimmer is to "Go (unsupported)". It's probably what humans have done since prehistory -- to deadly effect (maybe 20% of the time). Imparting "Reach, Throw, Row, and Go (with support)" -- even though it doesn't make a spiffy acronym -- has prevented the untimely death of many ad hoc guards (probably myself included).

Is there a teaching method that, applied universally, adds that kind of value to every boy's outdoor experience? If so, require it. If not, do what we often tell our SPL's: think before you make a rule you have to live by.

Well, by your description they used the EDG method, but I think with the Webelos being somewhat out of their environment, they did it right. Before even joining your troop, these potential cross-overs know where there's a troop of creative older boys to help them.

Here's hoping that translate into a bunch of new scouts ready for summer camp!

jam,

My oldest son was camping with his buddies after his wolf year at cub camp. So the transition wasn't too hard. His friend's dad and I just pitch are tent a little futher away from the boys. This actually made it easier for us to get to meet the older boys, some of whom would be his mentors in other school activities.

My second son crossed over and I was already ASM. There was one cold evening when I was 300' away, and in the wee hours he was standing outside my tent complaining about not being able to sleep. I let him come in and hunker down. Three years later, he's an independent boy scout and venturer just like his brother was.

My point is: same troop, same rules, different kids. You adjust. If you like camping, keep going out with the troop. If you like fundraising, pushing paperwork, or organizing adults ... please, we need you! Those of us how like to be in the woods all the time are terrible at that stuff!

Macmom,

Congratulations, and you have every right to be proud. Restating what the posters said, all badges earned at any rank count for the total of 21.

Although I'm against pushing Life scouts to knock off their rank requirements in 6 months (unless, they're 17 1/2!), if a boy likes earning MB's let him have at it!

One thing I encourage boys to do is start on Personal Management and Personal Fitness before camp. Why? Because camp can cause unique challenges for fitness of body and wallet! When they meet with their counselor at the end of summer they can evaluate how things went. (E.g., did spending go a little overboard at the trading post? Could you find a chin-up bar in the woods?)

Other than that, have the boy identify the badges where camp is an ideal place for learning because you don't have access to the facilities at home. Hopefully one or two of those will be required. If not, have him start getting counselors' names and numbers and making some calls.

There's no standard formal process. The troop may have one, but I doubt it. Just let the SM know if your DC is showing up at the den and pack meetings or calling you in a timely fashion if he can't make it.

If some real positive synergism is happening between the DC and your boys, let the SM know that too. It might help determine the lad's next position of responsibility.

Oh, and as a former den chief, it really meant a lot when the DL came up many years later and thanked me for helping her boys.

Hey Doc, cut us a break! Some of us our too busy making a living to be famous (yet)!

For a contemporary panoply of Eagles, I suggest Legacy of Honor, by Alvin Townley.

Sheer numbers dictate that there are more public figures who are Eagles now than ever before. Townley's research makes that very clear.

I would suggest that the closing show montage tells more about the folks who made it than about numbers of Eagles in the public eye.

Cart before the horse. YPT and other Saftey principles don't gain their importance because they are in G2SS. Rather, G2SS is important because these common-sense concepts are in one place.

When my coeds talk (jokingly, thank goodness) about sleeping arrangements, I tell them it's a YPT violation, not "the G2SS tells me so."

If a youth life guard is operating in my aquatics area, I refer to safe-swim and safety afloat, not G2SS. Heck, at that moment I really don't care if the kid gets YPT or gun safety at all. I do care that he/she knows how to prevent the death or injury of the swimmers/boaters in his area.

If kids are throwing 5 pound rocks at each other (nothing in G2SS about lofting projectiles), I'll rudely interrupt them. If they are pointing little red lights at each other in a dark room, I'm not getting in a huff about it. (In terms of safety, that is. I might pull out the "scouting is outing" speech.)

Okay, here's an excersise for former scouts or older scouts. It might be a fun reflection and fire the brain cells in a different direction. (But, it may mean leaving your terminal for a bit.)

1. Go find your merit badge sash (or blue cards if you were really that much of a pack rat).

2. Look over each badge and try to recall your MBC and how he/she instructed you.

3. Post some of your memories (methods you liked/didn't like, what worked/failed).

4. I'm trying to think of a fourth step, but it wouldn't spell anything anyway.

That's it. Have fun.

emv - How is this [asking for a book to start an MB] a problem? A Scout is thrifty.

It's not a big problem, but sometimes my scouts come off with the impression that you won't learn if you don't have the book before you even phone the counselor. I'm not sure if that's because of my "start with the Handbook" approach.

But truth is MBC's have varying opinions of the BSA materials. They have varying teaching models. My 1st aid MBC was an "Explain", "Enable" kinda guy. I sat on his porch being told what to do, doing it, being told what not to do the next time, doing it again. All the while he and my dad engaged in small talk. His reference, which he loaned me, was an outdated Red Cross manual.

If I made the effort, I'd probably have a different story regading teaching style and method for each badge on my sash.

Experiencing that diversity is part of the game, I guess.

(ooh, there's another topic).

Ya Skep and Sherm,

I don't have any problem with EDGE or any other method being in the book under a heading "How to teach a scout skill." Sort of like the chapter on different kinds of fires.

I would much rather the requirement be "Teach a friend how to tie a square knot. Tell a leader how you did taught him."

I would phrase the Life requirement similarly. Maybe including, "Explain why you chose the teaching method you used."

Should this happen naturally with positions of responsibility? Well, if you and your scout parents have bought into the boy-led stuff, yes. If your troop is Eagle milling or helicopter parenting, not so much. So, I think these requirements exist as much for parents as they do for the boys.

For the record (I've said it elswhere) the best thing we can give our youth:

Read the Handbook,

Have them Read the Handbook,

Do the Handbook,

Have them do the Handbook.

That way, when they don't have you, they have the handbook.

My problem: I have a bunch of boys who when they want to start a merit badge, ask me if we have the merit badge book in our library.

Skeptic, I would be with you up until ... Once they have the ability, then make sure they know what EDGE means in case someone gets "technical" with them in a review (though that might be retesting?).

If upon review a boy tells me "Sir, I forgot what it stands for, but I taught all the kids in my NSP how to secure the ropes on the trebuchet that launched a nalgene from our patrol site into SM Kudu's tent." Guess who's advancing to the next rank with no further questions?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm setting up the kid for a life of failure. But I don't think Kudu's moving his tent a foot further away just because a kid can recite EDGE.

P.S. - Guy, thanks for the reference. Wiki or otherwise, it's more than what I had before.

First, this is entirely up to the SM.

Second, have them fill out a tour plan. If the SM and CC/COR approve it, it becomes a sanctioned scouting activity.

If it's a bad plan (the parents haven't got trained, the troop frowns on video watching, location of campsite is too tame) in the SM's opinions (not ours, not yours) he doesn't sign it. The boys venture into their backyard on their own. Worst case scenario: no accidents happen, they boys actually perform some act of heroism, and the BSA doesn't get credit for it.

Our CO is a church, but they are very aware that young men and women from all over the community are part of thier units. So, they don't impose much. We make it very simple:

1. Say grace before meals.

2. If we're out on a Sunday, have devotions. (5 - 15 minutes)

3. Discourage cussing. (Not only because it is discourteous, but because folks consider that an offense against their God.)

Usually it's the chaiplain's aide who picks the devotion in the troop. In the crew, we find a youth volunteer.

The goal is to bring each youth's religious sensibilities to the table. (Rather than -- as happens in a lot of institutions -- try to sweep it under the table.)

So that's our routine, but there are some other special things ...

- Encourage youth on Scout Sunday/Sabbath they to wear their uniform or ask their clergy to recognize scouts in the worship service.

- Encourage youth to consider service projects at their place of worship.

- For the venturers, when I have the officer's briefing and the topic of discipline comes up, I remind them "I know where each of you go to church, I'm holding you to those values."

Obviously as a COR, these would be personal suggestions you offer the SM and Advisor so that they know the VFC is offering them a lot of lattitude -- not requiring them to do anything in particular.

Beyond that, you do have the respect the fact that some parents may have chosen your unit because they wanted to be sure somebody else's religion was not "foisted" on their kids.

I think it'd be a shame to drop "patrol" just because venturers are in the room.

Part of my personal expectation of leadership training is that it expose me to different management models.

Most crews don't get beyond "patrol" size anyway. Mine does, but I've found that they split out into different functional groups, (e.g. climbing, backpacking, council area events). No matter what title you give the youth in charge (Activity Chair, Patrol Leader of Hiking, Czar of Ropes), learning how to manage these groups is their immediate proving ground.

I can also see how our SPL could benefit from a better understanding of the leadership model of a venturing crew. The simple knowlege that some BSA units organize into officers and activity chairs may help him raise the expectation of his PL's. In fact, my youngest son, who is looking for a position of responsibility was asking me a ton of questions about the Sea Scout positions listed in the Boy Scout handbook.

I might be wrong about this, but I think he'd be as good a PL if he went to NYLT with a bunch of sea scouts as he would if only boy scouts were in the camp.

JiKC, OGE, peri,Sr540 -

You have provided some really great examples. I'm not entirely sold that packaging them in an acronym like EDGE get's our boys up to speed any faster.

To all of them, I would have added, "have the boys read the relevant section of the handbook ..." Or because tents vary so much, "look for instructions in the tent bag, find a language you can understand, read it."

Why? Because because our learners need to have resources for when the teacher isn't there! Shoot, our teachers need to have resources to peek at on a good day!

Try not to let this stuff eat at you, on the bright side ...

It doesn't sound like any boys went home crying to mamma, "Mr. Exibar called me a thief!" This keeps it from becoming a bigger production than it really was.

You have an opportunity to talk to the older boys about "what went well, what went wrong, what I would do differently?" Maybe after the SPL and JASMs run bed-check on the next campout, you can have them come back to the campfie and discuss a few things in that framework.

One of these days there will be a very funny campfire skit about this. You'll be the brunt of some really good inside jokes!

P.S. - You probably don't want them to know you've been talking to the likes of us about it.

I get what you're saying. As long as we give the boys 10 camping nights of opportunities, why can't we be called a QU? The point is that the gold category is doing nearly monthly outings. If your troop has the adult leadership available to make many of those Friday+Saturday night, that's awesome!

I agree that many boys are not impressed with the QU patch. But I think it does register something with parents who are selecting a troop. When Weblos visit you could pull the parents aside and simply tell them your troop is a "Quality Unit" and even hand them a copy of your tally sheet. Or, you could do just as well handing them the troop calendar.

The jury's still out with my Crew and the Venturing standards. I think the officers would like to meet them, which means the standards are better than the previous ones. I don't think they would know what to do with the designation if they earned it.

Massive ditto on what SP just said!

The SM has bottom line in this. But, if the boys have a good plan, support it!

THEY ACTUALLY ASKED PERMISSION. Like JB said they are according the troop a very high level of respect.

This might be a good excuse to get those parents trained. Is there a reason why they haven't taken YPT?

If I were so fortunate, I would have the PL file a tour plan with him as tour leader and the APL as assistant tour leader. Push that through council.

Yep, 2 consecutive nites = 1 trip.

But, as long as we're trying to push boundaries ...

Say a troop has three patrols. Is it 3 trips or 1 or none if they each go on ...

a separate overnight in the same weekend

separate overnights on different weekends in the same month

separate overnights on different weekends throughout the year.

What if one gung-ho patrol pulls off 3 independent overnights while the other two only do day hikes?

And please, no tour plan/GSS rants! There's a thread for that. Let's just assume that the troop has enough adults nutty enough to set up camp 100 yards from each patrol on the weekends they camp out.

I would have responded as you, without the oath and law sharade. Rather than lining them up, sit them down in a circle.

You expect boys to be trustworthy. On a hike communication is important. "If you didn't pack it in for yourself, don't assume you can have it."

Tell them you'll be at your tent, and as soon as you know where your Mt. Dew went, you'll start on cobbler #2.

If it was the CC who downed the two cans, public humiliation is in order!

Ya Ea. I've met a few SM's who retired from the Advisor business a couple years after they were leaned on by a DE to start a crew.

We, on the other hand, were leaned on by a few young women who wanted to do the high adventure that the scouts at their lunch table were talking about.

Scouterabouter, in which category does your crew fall?

Another question: what is your crew's favorite service project?

And you're also crew advisor?

It sounds like until you get more folks to hold the different essential positions, you don't need another committee.

Maybe you could have three joint committee meetings spread throughout the year (e.g. pack-troop, troop-crew, pack-crew). This would be instead of the regular individual committees. That way you aren't asking anyone to add another meeting to their schedule, but you are making sure that folks get introduced to the adults from other units as a matter of course.

Also, how are the older youth involved in this? For example, the crew QM and troop QM should be putting up a roster for scout hut duties. Crew VP Program and troop SPL or ASPL should have a major say in the end of year campout. Your Crew President should be making a report to the Charter Org (ours does that formally at Scout Sunday).

The clearer it becomes how the youth are expected to cooperate, the easier it becomes for committees to work together.

My crew being one of those closely related to a partner troop, I guess we've been cooking up disaster for the past 6 years!

One of the ways we've "dodged bullets" is to make very clear to the troop that enrolling in the crew is not automatic. I invite 8th grade boys once at the end of the year. The first step is to fill out *your own* youth application. The only thing they are to do is get their parent's signature. I give out a lot of applications, but don't follow up and don't worry about getting them back. This keeps our older boys from feeling like they have to commit to more than they can handle.

This means we lean on other youth as our recruitment base.

Works: Active members recruiting friends. Set aside one or two evenings a year for an open house involving a campfire or picnic.

Works half-way: Asking active venturers to invite younger sibs coming of age.

Hardly ever works: Boys inviting girlfriends to join for a night camping!

What I found is our crew can provide a unique service by holding campfires throughout the summer (even on Halloween). We devote about 15 minutes to going over program. The rest of the time is spent watching wood burn. A lot of youth show up, (parents are ok with girlfriends going out to a supervised evening) a few eventually sign on.

Obviously your youth will have their own specialty activity that would fit into an evening.

Just like scouts, have a fun program, attract youth. Beyond that, unless the youth have told you THEY want to make recruiting a priority, it wont fly.

Lbob,

Do us all a favor and don't try to recruit E61. I'll happily live with a dad's second guessing and anxieties, but not his misery! If he'll drop us off at the edge of a canyon and be there waiting somewhat patiently for when we come back, I'll take it! I'm fine if adults who weren't there jump on my case for adjusting hike plans at the last minute. Every now and then the armchair quarterbacks are right.

E61 - No. An adult isn't required to be in each canoe. I usually keep the adults together. (My experience is they are the ones more likely to roll their boats!) If two boys are struggling, I may have one swap with an adult boat until they get their strokes down.

But, each canoe should have a buddy boat. And who's in which boat should be accounted for pretty tightly.

Sounds like the best thing you could do for the boy is keep him in the program, but let him know that you're not sweating the advancement stuff (just his safety)! When he's back in town, offer to drive his patrol to a ball game or something.