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I would have responded as you, without the oath and law sharade. Rather than lining them up, sit them down in a circle. You expect boys to be trustworthy. On a hike communication is important. "If you didn't pack it in for yourself, don't assume you can have it." Tell them you'll be at your tent, and as soon as you know where your Mt. Dew went, you'll start on cobbler #2. If it was the CC who downed the two cans, public humiliation is in order!

Ya Ea. I've met a few SM's who retired from the Advisor business a couple years after they were leaned on by a DE to start a crew. We, on the other hand, were leaned on by a few young women who wanted to do the high adventure that the scouts at their lunch table were talking about. Scouterabouter, in which category does your crew fall? Another question: what is your crew's favorite service project?

And you're also crew advisor? It sounds like until you get more folks to hold the different essential positions, you don't need another committee. Maybe you could have three joint committee meetings spread throughout the year (e.g. pack-troop, troop-crew, pack-crew). This would be instead of the regular individual committees. That way you aren't asking anyone to add another meeting to their schedule, but you are making sure that folks get introduced to the adults from other units as a matter of course. Also, how are the older youth involved in this? For example, the crew QM a

My crew being one of those closely related to a partner troop, I guess we've been cooking up disaster for the past 6 years! One of the ways we've "dodged bullets" is to make very clear to the troop that enrolling in the crew is not automatic. I invite 8th grade boys once at the end of the year. The first step is to fill out *your own* youth application. The only thing they are to do is get their parent's signature. I give out a lot of applications, but don't follow up and don't worry about getting them back. This keeps our older boys from feeling like they have to commit to more than th

Lbob, Do us all a favor and don't try to recruit E61. I'll happily live with a dad's second guessing and anxieties, but not his misery! If he'll drop us off at the edge of a canyon and be there waiting somewhat patiently for when we come back, I'll take it! I'm fine if adults who weren't there jump on my case for adjusting hike plans at the last minute. Every now and then the armchair quarterbacks are right. E61 - No. An adult isn't required to be in each canoe. I usually keep the adults together. (My experience is they are the ones more likely to roll their boats!) If two boys

K, As much as I sympathize with your view of BSA leadership training as post-modern jingoism. I'm really not interested in EDGE as it pertains to a concept like patrol method -- even if it were in the syllabus old school style. We need to know its impact on youth as it pertains to teaching a scouting skill. You and I can claim it has none. Beav can challenge it's compliance to best practices. We might demonstrate its uselessness in adults learning methods of scouting. But, all of that would not speak to the environment where it's explicitly required to be implemented.

Here's a kill-two-birds-with-one-stone first night pseudo-campfire suggestion ... Have everyone's cell phones cycle through a bunch of background picks. Toss them in the middle of the circle. Tapping the buttons to keep them lit replaces the throwing logs on. Lights out once the batteries are dead. Then for the rest of the weekend you don't have to worry about regulating that electronic devices ban!

Guy, You almost had me there. April fools to you. Now, by way of testimonial from the opposite camp, one SM of ours had a dreadful fear of public speaking. (I had no clue until the first Court of Honor that we let him lead.) This guy has a lot of outdoor skills, but was really intimidated by the concept of teaching. He appreciated having EDGE in his head because it gave him an outline of what he needed to do to instruct kids. I'm sure some of you have had similar experiences, but this is anecdotal evidence. What I'd really like to see is some trial, maybe at summer camp. Ran

Aw buc, At least whatever these posters are saying is there for everyone else to judge. (Note that some have gotten flamed with more vitriol than you could stir up on your own.) The sad part about troop and crew life is this stuff goes on behind the leader's back. It's in plain English, it's more divisive than you could ever imagine, and it shuts the kids down because they're old enough to know what's being said, but not old enough to assert themselves and put us all in line. Some the scuttlebutt takes years to resolve. So if we're treating your "Chatty Kataryzna's" like a mo

E61, I am a little nervous the times I am not out with my boys -- especially the youngest who has had asthma his whole life. (Oldest is in college -- takes the girlfriend on wilderness outings with the youth fellowship, so now I'm nervous for her, too!) That's why I said understanding the SM's "risk equation" is so important. Unfortunately, that involves time around campfires getting to know the man (and his assistants). You may get answers of why he did what he did at a committee meeting or some other venue, but the tone may be different. How my parents could drum up the cou

The "who" should probably be documented on your council's annual report. Chances are the name and number is on the campership application form. The "how much" should be a line item on your council's budget, unless managed as a separate fund. If that's the case then it would be on the income/expense report. And as E92 mentioned, that could in several places depending on how your council is organized. Your's is an important question. Every year I hand out our church financial report to my 3rd-5th grade Sunday school class. I tell them, "This is the one document that you should use

I agree that waiting for kids to grow out of the middle-school drama-every-minute behavior is what makes the Venturing program work as a co-ed thing. The 14-16 year old "flirt" (male or female) can be confronted by older youth and brought in line. The 12-13 year old typically is getting too much of a rise out of the attention (negative or positive) to realize that there's a need to cut the act and get with the program! Bottom line: lacking moms who will push for a culture change, nothing is going to happen. And this nation still has plenty of moms who are very happy with the GS-USA cul

Or, you could tell a kid: Read the handbook, have them read the handbook, do the handbook, have them do the handbook. Why? Because the purpose of the knots (and anything you need to explain) IS IN THE HANDBOOK. RTHHTRTHDTHHTDTH is not a catchy mnemonic, but it doesn't need to be. And because it's content laden, I'll warrant it's easier to remember. But I'm just guessing. Where are those education grad students looking for a research study?

F.Y.I. - I had two very responsible parents, and I got bullied my first year in my troop. So, don't blame it on the single parent thing. The bullies didn't back off, but more of us stood up to them. Eventually they left, we stayed. The SM tried to maintain discipline. I don't know if he talked to my parents or not. From my perspective it didn't work. On the other hand, I stayed, they left. I had experienced bullying before scouts. My mom's advice, "stop whining, get big." I didn't quite know what to do with that at the time she gave it, but she did raise three older b

bt - Choosing the right number of partners is part of the hike plan, isn't it? I see nothing precluding family hikes. However, I would encourage the boy to team up with another youth or two in his community to work on this. They might appreciate the company. (You didn't hear me say girlfriends, but ...) As Beav's post indicates, summer may be no less perilous than winter, and a partner who can't see identify heat stroke or hypothermia would do you no good. So you want to teach the boy to aim for quality, not a certain number.

Peri - References are a fairly modern thing. They require written language. We've been teaching as a species long before we had writing. .... (I've seen no evidence that cave paintings were instructional.) Well, since we don't know who was allowed to look at the paintings, we don't know how instructional they were. I'm only speculating there. So, yes as a species with implicitly EDGE-type methods, we all got along quite nicely before cuneiform. (at least until the ripe old age of 40, the half of us who didn't die in infancy, but who knew it there were ways to beat that gambit?) Mode

And Beav, I'm not joking. I decided to get off of my high horse and make sure I understand what people are thinking when they promote this "made up poppycock". Why? Because my scouts are critical thinkers, and sooner or later one or two of them will ask the "what's the point" question. Even if I don't believe it, I want to be able to give them some useful background so that they know why some people do.

Peri, Thanks for the article. It's not exactly what I wanted but it was very insightful. But here's the rub ... based on your last comment -it's really no different than people have been teaching other people from the beginning of humankind (except of course for the catchy mnemonic) Well, actually it is. Because from the beginning of humankind we've been making references (cave paintings, wall diagrams, statues, books, blogs, ...) that were central to skill acquisition. Or, at least we thought they were. By omitting "reference" (or handbook, in the case of teaching scout skills) EDG

On the bright side, you got 13 more crossovers than we did this year.

Does anyone have a bibliography on the EDGE method? I've decided to stop being an armchair skeptic until I've learned how it does or does not improve a person's teaching ability. I tried Google scholar. "Trainer's EDGE" comes up with a couple of books on computer and distance instruction. "EDGE Method" brings up lots of articles in physics and math. Nothing to do with pedagogy. Is it out there under another name? What would really be interesting is some type of randomized trial. What would be gravy is if the trial involved 12 - 15 year old instructors and learners.

Okay people, this has nothing to do with my utter and complete disdain for EDGE. If I have not kept up with my water rescues, someone may die. Same with paddle safety, chainsaws, etc ... We all forget details, so being reminded every couple of years is a good idea. Each fine point remembered removes us one degree from calamity. If your not up to date with the best dog-and-pony-show you can do for your trainees, will they die? Granted, I've not formally taken trainer's edge, so maybe I'm missing something. But do you guys on the training side of things feel like refresher cou

Tell 'em that if traumatized son wants to bring up the issue, he'll have potentially 6 SM conferences and BORs to do so. If scars are too deep, he may remind us of them in his speech at his Eagle ceremony.

Our past two trips no scouts capsized. Wished I could've said the same for adults. The second guessing is endless. The best you could do is listen to the SM and understand his "risk equation" as much as it can be understood. Sometimes hugging a shoreline has disadvantages, such as submerged logs and rocks that will quickly throw a boat bobbing in high waves. Sometimes guys make bonehead moves. That's why preparedness on other levels (clothes and a drybag) makes a difference.

Picasa (i.e. Google Photos) gives me just enough to be dangerous. My crew youth use it pretty well.

Sounds like Barry's approach would fit well with the kids you have who are really gung-ho. You may have to challenge your committee to be flexible with this "side show", but more likely they will be thrilled that you want to offer a specialty program. One more thing, on your first hike, bring a guide book or maps for three options for your next tour. If your BP-ers are like mine, they are all ears about options while resting by mile markers -- not so much at meetings.