ParkMan

Of course it's a silly naming convention and nowhere near approximates a real PhD.  Just like University of Scouting isn't a real University either.

Just for my own knowledge I'm curious what folks do for a Doctorate. I get that there's an independent project involved here.  If you've completed one or know of others who have - what kinds of things did you see for projects?

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I strongly recommend you inform council,. That way they can get off your charter ASAP, and can have their access to SCOUTBOOK, and unit related online sources terminated. Grant you, the "CM" is not even registered,but it is a good idea. The DL that was removed has access to the pack's Be.A.Scout.org info, Internet Advancement. and other stuff. It got really crazy.

Right - but I don't think he was even registered at all.  If he was registered and you need to remove him - then of course you need to ask council to do that.

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We had a DL who tried to take over. It got bad fast. Long story short we got the DE, COR, CC, CM, and the SM ( this DL also started on the SM as well) involved. A letter was written to her and  the council registrar, with a cc to the Scout Exec, stating A) that her services as a DL were no longer needed with the pack, and B) she was no longer allowed on on the church's property. I believe a restraining order barring her from the church was done as well. This was her 2nd pack in my district.

From dealing with the problem above, and dealing with parents trying to take over a Scout troop, if you do not nip it in the bud now, the problem will get worse. People will leave because of him. Problem above was nipped in the bud, and nobody left. The parents problem was left to fester for over a year, and families have left or are considering leaving.

This is one of those personally challenging times as a CC.  What us really going on here is that this fellow is challenging that the basic operating model of the pack.  You, as CC, need to do the very unpleasant thing and take a very hard, firm line here.  No meetings, no discussions, no committee involvement.  You simply talk one-on-one with the COR and follow through on your decision as the CC.  His involvement with the pack is terminated.  Send him a registered letter and inform the rest of the pack leadership.  My email would be as simple as:

Quote

Pack leaders,

Upon review of recent events I have reached the conclusion that Bob Smith will not be serving as Cubmaster of our pack.  I thank Bob for volunteering and his involvement with the Pack.  I wish him all the best going forward.

Best regards,

CC

You can communicate it to the district, council, or whatever.  But, frankly it doesn't matter.  You, as CC, are in charge.  You make the decision and that's that.

Hi @AnotherDad,

Awesome idea!!!

Did I read correctly that your pack's norm is to meet monthly for 60-75 minutes?  Our den always met weekly as do just about all the dens I know of.  I really prefer weekly meetings to bi-weekly or monthly meetings.  I find it's good for dens to have some continuity to build some momentum.

I think it's a great idea to add in some Saturday activity days.  It's a great way to do some longer form activities together as a den.  My recommendation would be to have a regular weekly meeting and every so often replace one of those meetings with a Saturday.  Maybe every other month or something like that.

In terms of the Saturday activities - some recommendations:

1) plan the dates well ahead of time.  Picking which Saturday isn't too hard, so I'd pick them a few months out - even if I had to schedule multiple at a time.

2) have a clear description of what you're going to do that day so folks know what to expect.

3) Leverage some of your regular den meetings to plan.  It's a great time to get the Webelos involved in planning their own activities.

4) have a plan for the day.  it doesn't need to be super detailed, but you want to know what you'll be doing when.

5) don't hesitate to combine these with a camping trip.  If you're going away for the day, why not spend the night too?  Maybe even hold it at your council's camp.  When my son was a Webelos - we had 3 or 4 campouts in addition to the normal pack campouts.

I've heard it often stated - but never asked.  Why are the skill awards considered so bad?

I'd love to hear more about the experience of working on a doctorate.  I'm not a commissioner - but I see it in my future.

Our council also holds a College of Commissioner Science.

4 hours ago, Cleveland Rocks said:

You as CC and the COR are both responsible for approving all adult leaders in your unit. Since you're both on the same page that this person should not be your CM, and it sounds like there are some red flags that would pop up on a background check, this should be a short meeting.

You need to let this person know that their services are no longer needed. Inform your DE and unit commissioner of your decision.  But ultimately the decision is all on you. Your council will let you know that this is a matter between you, your chartered organization, and the individual who wants to be your Cubmaster. They still, though, need to be kept in the loop on what is transpiring. The council would get involved only if this application ever made its way to the registrar's desk with all that missing information.

Because this person has not had his application approved by you and the COR, submitted to council, or had a background check passed, he should not be at meetings attempting to perform the duties of a Cubmaster.

His actions alone should disqualify him: he refused to sign the religious principles declaration, refuses to authorize a background check, and I'd be willing to bet he hasn't taken YPT. He needs to be informed that his services are no longer needed.

As a former CC & CM, this is 100% correct.

The decision on who is an adult volunteer is up to the CC & COR.  If either of your rejects a volunteer - it's done.  Since you both don't want him to be CM - this is easy - he's not the Cubmaster.  You don't need anyone's permission to reject him - it's your call.

FWIW - I just logged in with my my.scouting.org account & password.  So, this doesn't appear to broken for everyone.

Wish I could help more.

7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Then the BSA needs to update the OA eligibility rules.  

I'm all for setting the bar high for membership in the OA.  I get that we all want it to be BSA camping - but it's not what's written.

Got to thinking about my response and wanted to expand a bit here.

I'm 100% behind being a member of the OA meaning something and there being a high bar for entry.  I was not an OA member as a Scout and always looked up to those guys.  As an adult, I've never been able to get to summer camp as a volunteer.  So, even when I had 15 nights of camping, I refused to let myself be considered for membership by the troop committee because I didn't meet the rules.

I'm also 100% behind units making common sense decisions when the info is imperfect.  It's Scouting - not a law firm.  So, sometimes you look at what's written and say "this is what they really meant."

Yet, these OA elgibility rules have been in place for a long time.  My read was the same as in this thread.  The eligibility requirements don't say BSA camping.  They are very specific about what long term camping means - but yet very vague on short term camping.  So, I've got to interpret that as "any short term camping is fine."

Why?  I'm going to wager that any Scout who's going family camping enough to meet the OA eligibilty requirements as a result - is probably a pretty avid camper.  A scout going on a camping trip with a Cub Scout pack - again, is probably a pretty involved Scout.  Could folks fall through the cracks - yes.  But, that's what OA elections are for.  Let the Scouts sort this out.  

Now, if the OA really meant "BSA camping" - then the OA ought to update the rules.  If they do - then great.  I'll support it 100%.

2 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

This is from the FAQ on the official OA page:

Q. Will camping be counted retroactively for those currently in Venturing and Sea Scouts?

Yes. Camping that has taken place within the two years immediately prior to the election will be counted beginning February 1, 2019. This camping must have taken place while an individual was registered with the BSA as a program participant and must be while participating with a BSA Venturing Crew or Sea Scout Ship.

We would not require the camping to be while participating with a Crew or Ship, and not require the same thing of a Troop.  I have been an Arrowman for 50 years, and have never encountered a unit of any kind that allowed camping nights with the family rather than Scouts to be counted.

Then the BSA needs to update the OA eligibility rules.  

I'm all for setting the bar high for membership in the OA.  I get that we all want it to be BSA camping - but it's not what's written.

4 hours ago, malraux said:

Compare and contrast that wording with the camping MB requirement.

"Camp a total of at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events.* One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent."

The OA wants a BSA summer camp experience, plus another 10 nights camping. But by the wording, only the 5 continuous nights need be at the bsa sanctioned event.

Right.  Here's how I'd read this:

Quote

Have experienced 15 nights of camping while registered with a troop, crew, or ship within the two years immediately prior to the election. The 15 nights must include

1. one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of at least five consecutive nights of overnight camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. Only five nights of the long-term camp may be credited toward the 15-night camping requirement;
2. the balance of the camping (10 nights) must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps of, at most, three nights each. Ship nights may be counted as camping for Sea Scouts.

I see only two restrictions on how the 10 nights are spent:

• not more than 3 nights on a single trip
• must happen while the Scout is a registered troop, crew, or ship member. 

This could be troop camping, cub camping, family camping, friend camping, solo camping, whatever.  It's not vague so much as it's not what you'd expect.  I think the point is that it's the society of honor campers.  Whether you're camping with the BSA or somewhere else - you're still camping.

44 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

A parent's grief about losing the "Light" in their life.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Cypress-Boy-Scout-s-legacy-lives-on-through-13524961.php

“Scouting should be adventurous without being life threatening,” said father Stephen Knight, who is also an Eagle Scout. “If (the Boy Scouts) follow their own existing policies or improve the policies that they have in place, it could have led to a different result.”

As a SM or ASM do you depend for the camp director or ranger to hit the siren or do you monitor weather and make the go call yourself?  Have you found yourself and unit alone in seeking shelter?

“Start everything with kindness, and the end will be OK.” - Elijah Knight, scout.

 

After reading this I see their point.  Before I was under the impression that the storm was unexpected and their lawsuit was suggesting that the camp should have removed all trees in jeopardy of falling.  

Learning now that there was a severe thunderstorm warning, this does seem like a valid argument.  As unit leaders we should have responsibility to see that our Scouts are in a shelter if possible.  However, when at a council facility, the camp staff should make sure that everyone is alerted in the case of a severe thunderstorm warning and that sheltering plans are known and understood.  For council camps that are not primitive camps and where shelters do exist, the staff really ought to have a working system to get the boys there.  I don't see that as degrading the Scouting experience and it seems like a practical step.

Hi @Treflienne,

I've got two daughters who are Girl Scouts, so I'm familiar with an investiture ceremony.

I've never seen anything similar done in the BSA - whether in Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts.  This does appear to be something unique to the GSUSA.

The closest thing is the awarding of the first rank - but there is no special ceremony or oath made in front of the group.  More a recognition that the Scout is on his/her way on the Scouting trail.

Thanks @Eagledad

This is great.  Next question is probably a little off topic - but seems appropriate given the discussion...

As a general flow, how did your pack meetings tend to go.  I see you've got:

• under an hour
• 2-3 skits
• several walk on skits
• high level awards only
• very limited announcements - mostly just a few jokes to allow Scouts to sing the announcements song

Did you typically do activities, have guest speakers, etc?  We're your meetings more hands-on with the boys doing things or were they more like entertainment where the boys sit and watch for an hour?

Good point @Eagledad

I'm struck by how many people do the Bobcat face painting ceremony.  I suspect there are many Cubmasters (myself included) who were new enough to the role that they were just trying to figure things out.  You look around or online and this is a popular ceremony to try - so people do it.  It would have been helpful to me if I had seen some other good examples of the kinds of things that were well received for a ceremony like this.  I wonder if it would be worth folks sharing more details about ceremonies that worked for them and why.

Just a thought.

As an aside - I remember attending things like University of Scouting and Roundtable desperate for information like that.   "What could I do as a Cubmaster to make pack meetings more fun and interesting?"  Everything I saw was always stuff that felt odd to me.  Roundtable guy wanted us to dress up and do slap stick kinds of stuff.  The UOS guy had suggestions that all involved very elaborate pack meetings with tons of setup.  

I get the pressure though to add elaborate ceremonies.  As a Cubmaster, I started with very simple presentations for rank awards. Then, I tried to make them more meaningful - so that meant more talking in an attempt to make them a bigger deal.  Then folks start saying- too much talking.  So, you find the Bobcat ceremony like this one.  Scouts and adults all love it. Now you're thinking- wow, they finally like It and you start looking for more like this.

There isn't a line of succession proscribed by the BSA.  In theory, the chartered organization is supposed to appoint a new one.  Practically, if you don't have a Committee Chair, then someone needs to step up and take it on. 

However, as the Committee Chair is the volunteer who organizes and supervises all the other volunteers, it's an important role.  Another key role of the CC is to work with the SM and Committee to set the overall direction for the troop.  Ideally, you want an experienced Scouter and good leader in the role.  I'd look to promote one of your strong committee members or ASMs.

If the BSA started doing a couple hundred thousand a year, I imagine it would be pretty cost effective to insource it.  I imagine the background checks are really just checking the names against a number of different lists.  

The bigger issue I see is the fact that adults are considered active before background checks are done.  It creates a culture where we submit the applications and then don't think about it.  Really, the BSA ought to require background checks prior to allowing a leader to begin serving.  Unit leaders should really be required to wait until they get affirmative notification of completed background checks.  I know it will create a lag in leaders getting started - but it seems a small inconvenience if it will help eliminate these problrms.

33 minutes ago, prof said:

It appears that the council is shedding itself of several camps in the Puget Sound area.

Perhaps a scouter in that area can chime in with what they perceive the real effects will be.

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article223126030.html

 

Sounds like a smaller council that will have about 6,000 scouts in a few years after the Mormon split is done.  

I can imagine that they don't need 5 camps and also that if Seattle has some big camps that it draws scouts there.  It's a shame to see the properties go though.

@cocomax - it seems broken for me too.  I tried from Safari and I get the same blank map.

@dkurtenbach - This seems emblematic of a larger problem in Scouting - the strain of the National/Council/District structure.  National is good at coming up with materials.  Councils do a reasonable job of doing council level activities.  The weak link is where this all intersects with local units.  Really, this kind of training should be district (and maybe) council level training.  If one district was bad at training units to recruit, then it's an opportunity for districts to improve.  That it's a systemic problem in districts all over, that makes it a national problem.  The challenge here is that the solution is training councils & districts how to do this effectively and then putting a program in place to ensure it happens.

Though I agree that we need to do more to support unit level membership efforts, I do continue to believe there is a national level role here.  If National could find a way to raise excitement and interest in Scouting, it lowers the hurdle for the local units.  In essence - make it easier to the packs & troops to recruit by having more inherent interest.

@Terasec - Sorry to see you stepping away.  It feels to me like what you're seeing is the typical corporate response to a problem like membership.  i.e. "if numbers are dropping, then there must be a program problem we need to address.  Let's add STEM to our program - that's what kids want."  I still think the program is fine, it's the delivery of the program that is the thing to fix.  I'm sure folks in our national organization understand this - it's just a lot harder to address that.

I think the BSA's National marketing today is in line with what you'd expect.  Marketing is expensive, so they limit it to specific locations and times.  Today I think this means more and more online marketing.  While this is fine, It strikes me that what Scouting needs is something with bigger impact.  Something designed to change the conversation about Scouting and help get scores of youth excited about it.

I don't know how it's done in other countries and would be interested to learn more.

I think it would be interesting for the BSA to do some sort of marketing experiment with 10 of the best marketing firms in the country - even perhaps national corporations that do marketing just for their company.  Places like Apple & Disney.  Get them each to produce one advertisement.  Keep the BSA marketing folks largely out out it (not because BSA marketing has bad ideas) so that these experts in marketing are not restrained by traditional thinking about how to market the program. 

I'd also have the BSA then put the challenge out to local councils.  Have troops around the country develop and submit their own BSA advertisements that can be released on social media.  Get real Scouts selling the program to their peers.  

Perhaps doing these things around the World Jamboree would be a good reason.

5 hours ago, WAKWIB said:

I got the impression that the interviewer wasn't really into Scouting, and finds it silly.

SFE guy, who was very articulate and knowledgeable, seems to try to drive the idea that membership will increase when barriers are removed. It's a nice thought, but it will NEVER happen. You can remove every barrier imaginable, and the increase in membership will be negligible (IMHO).  You can remove all  barriers and give all new recruits a bonus of $100, and you will still fall short of the 4 million that we had at peak.  

Also, expect Scouts for Equality to launch, in the next year or two, another "turn in your Eagle patch" campaign to get National to relax any religious ideas. Like they did 5 years ago on behalf of homosexuals.  It WILL happen and National will go through a number of gyrations to satisfy the protest.

Agreed.  While I can understand that he believes opening Scouting to all is a noble thing to do, I agree that it won't fix the membership issue.  It's really an issue of needing to increase the number of youth who want to be Scouts.  Marketing, local recruiting, and program quality are the key things here. 

I'm 99% sure you'll be fine to attend.  I cannot imagine them not accepting your medical condition.

If you're still concerned, find out who the course director is and ask.  He or she will be able to work through it with you.

So, I got to wondering.  Why would National tell councils to stop printing these? This is done by council employees at council expense.  Why would National even care?

2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

As a Catholic, I've seen several dioceses declare bankruptcy due to the sex abuse crisis. Victims deserved to be heard and compensated for the failures of leadership to protect them and hold predators accountable for their crimes. For the church, I think of the beautiful old churches closed, sold and demolished. The charities damaged by the declining donations from scandalized Catholics. The elderly Priests and other religious who have spent their lives serving others, and now some diocese struggle to financially care for them. The people who will reject the teachings of Jesus because of the association with child molesters and sex abusers.

You can see a list of Catholic diocese's that have paid out settlements or declared bankruptcy here: https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/catholic-dioceses-and-orders-filed-bankruptcy-and-other-major-settlements. If the scope of abuse and damages are similar for the BSA, I'm not sure how the BSA survives, especially with states retroactively increasing the statute of limitations for these sorts of crimes. 

We'll see where it goes for the BSA, but I've seen this movie before and haven't made it to the ending quite yet, and now I get to watch a parade of damaged victims and another institution I deeply care about be destroyed by the evil deeds of predators, and the weakness of leadership that put reputation over people. 

I'm not sure there is any sense to make out of this. All we can do is be vigilant in our own neck of the woods, hope the victims find peace and receive justice, and that Scouting continues in some form or another.  

Most certainly they deserve to be heard and compensated.  It would be wrong to interpret my comments as suggesting otherwise.  I fully, wholeheartedly, and without reservation believe in supporting the victims of child abuse.  I know victims of child abuse and grew up in the era when the scandals in the Catholic Church were happening.  I grew up Catholic and I vividly recall allegations that it happened at my church at the hands of a priest that I knew.  From what little was shared with me as a kid, that priest abused one friend of mine and perhaps more.  I remember my parents having to ask me if I'd been abused.  I absolutely take, and have always taken, child abuse very seriously.  Sorry if that seems strong - but it's something I believe strongly in.

It still saddens me though to think of a day when the lawyers start trying to sell off the properties of our nation's Boy Scout program.