NeilLup

One can, of course, buy a second OA sash for ceremonial purposes. I also knew of a lodge where the custom was that one would wear one's Ordeal sash as an Ordeal member, then when one became a Brotherhood member, one would wear the Brotherhood sash for ceremonial occasions and their old Ordeal sash for work occasions.

As far as wearing an OA sash with "civilian" clothes, I can think of one possible circumstance which would unquestionably be OK. A Venturing crew can choose their uniform and could choose "civilian" clothes as the uniform. In this case, a person who was an OA member and joined that Crew could wear the OA sash with their Crew uniform.

I attended a course once where the instructor showed how there were many, many different voting systems and a skilled leader could govern the outcome by choosing the voting method and then letting the group vote.

If you believe that you have two boys who collaborate and don't want that, the last thing you would want is a simple plurality. With that, a boy with two votes might win if every boy votes for himself. So you could use a ranked voting system where the boys vote for the one they want most, then second most, then third most, etc. Initially, the first place votes are counted. If someone wins a majority, fine. Otherwise, the person or persons getting the fewest votes are struck off the ballots where they were listed first and the second place votes on those ballots are now counted. This continues until someone has a majority.

Another way is a different type of ranked voting. The boys list the people they want in order. Say that the patrol has seven voters. The first place name on each ballot gets seven votes. The second place name gets six votes, etc. The boy with the most votes wins.

You also can have rounds of voting where you take one ballot and the nominee with the fewest votes is eliminated. Then there is a second round and again the nominee with the fewest votes is eliminated. This continues until there are two candidates and the one with a majority wins.

You might not want to mess around with election methods, but it does make the point that there are many, many ways to do an election.

I've heard of this kind of restriction before. Some units do hot have female ASMs. Others have (in my opinion) seriously misinterpreted the Guide to Safe Scouting by stating that they believe that having a female ASM on a campout makes it a coed activity meaning that if a female ASM is present, a male leader must be there too. (The alternative would be two adult female leaders running a Boy Scout campout.)

It would seem that the CC has a real problem with female leaders and this may be his way of getting back. He may also have a problem with this particular woman and this is his way of trying to drive her out. I know that some competent women who are effective Cub Scout leaders can be perceived as quite threatening to some men.

Involving the Unit Commissioner is a good idea. If it would not be considered offensive to them, another alternative might be for the female ASM to go together with her husband to a Committee meeting and for him to take the tack "I am extremely offended. You are insulting my wife and looking only at her gender. If you believe that she is qualified to be an ASM, then she should do everything that an ASM does. If she can't, then I'm sure there are plenty of units who would be happy to have her. But for you to suggest that she is so libertine and so promiscuous that I need to be on a campout with her insults her and insults me."

There are some people who have extremely non-trusting standards concerning relations between the genders. Others do not. As I write this, my wife is in the Grand Canyon with her (male) hiking buddy. Sometimes, they share a tent when weather and conditions demand. Good thing too as she once saved his life when he went into insulin shock and would not have known had they not been in the same tent. This is, of course, not a Scouting trip.

The rules for mixed gender adult leadership on campouts is clear according to the Guide to Safe Scouting. However, those are not enough for some people and some religions.

I might be inclined to bring matters to a head as I suspect there is something beneath the surface of the CC's actions.

In response to Bob White's original question,

"How to run a Troop JLT."

To Mark's comments,

One of the interesting additions to the 4th day of 21st Century Wood Badge is that the training on Leave No Trace Camping is done by youth formed as a Venturing Crew. They then run the challenges (adventure trail) the next day for the adults. They also are encouraged to participate in the diversity exercise and diversity game in the evening.

On our first such course, some of the youth had such a good time that they asked if they could come back for the closing ceremony. Not only could they, but they were guests of honor. We took photos of the course and showed them as a slide presentation with appropriate music at the closing. The only time that the entire course gave a standing ovation during this presentation was when the photo of the Venturers was shown.

As a youth, my District in Baltimore ran a district JLT with boy instructors. We had adult patrols run through this too and it was no big thing. When the adults came through, you just said to yourself "OK, these are the adults." I remember that one session I was teaching was fire building without matches and only the adults were heavy and strong enough to do it with fire by friction. Having these boy instructors was a good thing for all concerned.

It probably means that someone was connected with Scouting prior to 1972. The Scout rank was added then. Prior to that, Tenderfoot was the joining rank and Webelos Scouts could cross over as Tenderfoot Scouts as they had completed all the Tenderfoot requirements.

Hello Bill,

You sound as if you are very much on the right track.

Please don't race past some of the other comments made. Attending your district training is great and probably gives the best quality training but if you have a qualified person in your Pack or if your Commissioner is qualified or if one of your district trainers is willing, you can run the training in your own Pack. The position of Pack Trainer is specifically intended for the person who does this.

Ordeal '60 Nentico 12

Brotherhood '61 Nentico 12

Vigil Honor '72 Walika 228 (may it rest in peace)

Currently Mosswetusett #52

In addition to getting one's shoulder mauled in the Tap Out, does anyone else remember carving the arrow during the Ordeal and getting it notched for talking, etc?

""Scouting isn't what you 'think' it is, Scouting is what the BSA 'says' it is."

Oh my, oh my, oh my! I was following along with interest until I hit this sentence. Then I became very troubled.

Several years ago, at a conference at Philmont Training Center, the instructor said that "Scouting is a movement, not an organization." The difference is that a movement is a loose affinity group where an individual marches or walks along with the other members of the movement because of a general and personal acceptance of the goals and objectives of the movement for as long as they continue to subscribe to the goals and objectives of the movement while an organization has rules, membersihp requirements, dues, etc.

Perhaps a more accurate rendering of Bob White's statement is "the BSA isn't what you think it is, the BSA is what the BSA says it is." But "BSA" is not a synonym for Scouting, even in the US.

I would respectfully say to every Scout leader "You are Scouting." We often say that the youth member is the most important person in Scouting. And for a Boy Scout, he really doesn't care about and doesn't know about the National President and the Chief Scout Executive and the National Executive Board and the upcoming National Meeting and probably even about his local council. For a Boy Scout, Scouting is his Scoutmaster! For that Boy Scout, what his Scoutmaster says goes. Those of us who work with youth cannot, should not and dare not abrogate that responsibility of ours.

Hello Bill,

You are not necessarily out of line at all. Depending upon the situation in your Pack, it may be very appropriate. It is great that all of your Den Leaders are trained.

Note that this person MUST have Youth Protection Training which can be accomplished on-line. Then, Fast Start can be accomplished on-line.

If you have a Pack Trainer, that person can then administer New Leader Essentials and Den Leader Training in your Pack. If not, there still should be training for CS leaders in your area.

I would suggest that establishing the attitude that a Leader in your Pack should attend training is very appropriate and enviable. However, you will probably need to "sell" training to some extent and convince people that going to training will actually make Cub Scouting more fun and enable the leaders to get the job done in less time with less work. And if telling someone "I'm sorry, but we believe that our children deserve trained leaders. If you don't have the time to learn how to do things properly, we understand but maybe it's best that you not be a leader." is necessary, you may be very surprised with the result.

If we regard training as something special and valuable, our leaders will believe us. If we regard it as something miserable to be suffered through, again, they will believe us.

Hello TP and VentureScout,

I suggest that the problem is not with the youth. Search the NYTimes archives or Google for "hyperparenting." Many parents now are involved in incredible depth with their children and their education.

The scariest one was a recent article on "Getting into College Summer Camp" where one goes to learn how to write a superb college application. Their philosophy was "People don't get into college. Applications get into college."

This creates a situation like that in some college classes which are graded on the curve. When everybody works ten times as hard, the grades aren't any better; just the curve is raised.

MIT has address this with their latest application. They ask questions like "What do you do that is fun?" The MIT Director of Admissions, Marilee Jones, is a leader in trying to address hyperparenting and the feeling that high school years should be one long continuous work project.

Hello Scoutldr,

Concerning how Eagle Scout percentages have changed, in 1973, there were about 47,000 boys who earned the Eagle Scout award. There were also about 2.1 million Boy Scouts. That works out to a bit more than 2% earning Eagle in any given year.

Last year, there were about 49000 boys who earned the Eagle Award but Boy Scout membership was about 1 million. That works out to close to 5% of the boys earning Eagle.

The change in the fraction is not in the numerator but in the denominator. About the same number of boys decide that they will become "lifers" as Boy Scouts and earn the Eagle. What has changed is the total number of boys who have some contact with Boy Scouting.

At the same, I understand that the average tenure of a Boy Scout has substantially increased. Again, those boys who are serious stay serious. What has changed is the number of boys who join and quickly fall by the wayside.

Sounds like a great project. Has your Scout looked at the disability awareness merit badge?

Eamonn very appropriately suggests running the project past the District Advancement Chairman. However, I thought that was a mandatory part of Eagle projects and not just a nice to do thing. Am I wrong that an Eagle project must be approved by the district/council before beginning?

Hello TP,

1) You can write to National and ask why "Crew Leader" and/or "Coxswain" are not on the list.

2) Unless you wish, you don't need to have Crew Leader PLUS a Skipper assigned project. Rather, you could use Crew Leader responsibility AS the skipper assigned project.

Were these Scouts with insignia errors wearing Scout trousers. If so, I would be thrilled. My blood pressure spiker is the boys wearing a Scout shirt and blue jeans. That to me is the blatant "in your face" statement concerning the uniform.

May I suggest that you do a little reading on the most appropriate water purification tablets. I know that we visited REI recently and got quite an education.

Part of the reason is that giardia is much more common now than it was 70 years ago and I am not sure that halazone addresses giardia. So if you are going to be in a place where you will be using purified water for a fair period of time, you will need to use something which kills giardia. I believe that is chlorine dioxide or sodium chlorite.

Hello Trail Pounder,

As I am sure you read, the Eagle Scout application says that the acceptable Positions of Responsibility for Eagle Scout for Sea Scouts are:

Boatswain

Boatswain's mate

Yeoman

Purser

Storekeeper

Clearly, I would say that a boy serving in one of those positions would meet the POR requirement. I don't know what the relationship of Boatswain and Boatswain's mate are but it is appropriate for all of your Crew leaders to be designated as Boatswain's mates?

Alternately, for Star Scout and Life Scout, there can be a "Scoutmaster assigned project" and I would interpret that such that for a Sea Scout Ship, the Skipper can assign a project. So if you want to assign serving as a Crew Leader as a project, it would meet the requirements for Star or Life. But not for Eagle Scout. That candidate must serve in one or more of the designated positions of responsibility.

Hello Uncleguinea,

It's not that the watch tells you what the month is. Rather, you tell the watch what the month is. If the watch doesn't know what the month is, how can it know how many days there are in that month and when to go back to 1 for the date. Not to mention tricky situations like leap year. That's why you also likely need to enter the year.

I have very mixed feelings on this. I certainly agree that the boys should be involved in selecting patrols. Exactly how that is done can be tricky. I remember a suggestion in an earlier edition of HBSM that the boys should each submit a list with the names of 3 or 4 boys they would like in their patrol. The SM and ASMs then use those lists to make up the patrol.

The reason for my mixed feelings relates to an experience when I was a boy. It was announced that patrols would be remade on a particular night. For various reasons beyond my control, I was about 15 minutes late to the meeting. I went to my regular patrol conrner and was told by my patrol "We're full now. You're not welcome. We don't want you."

Fortunately, my SM was alert and made sure that I had a home. But it was a sufficiently painful experience that I still remember it.

If the boys are allowed to make patrols in their own desires, I would suggest it is very important not to allow there to be an "Outcast Patrol" where all the unpopular boys get stuck. Or else that 5 or 6 buddies get to become a patrol and then are stuck with a couple of boys that they don't want and make unwelcome.

I would be very interested to learn from some of the other posters who have let the boys do it how they avoided this kind of Lord of the Flies situation.

Many of the Scoutmasters in our district are not good with computers and I doubt if they know how to burn a copy. As a matter of fact none of the computers in the service center have a CD burner. >>

This objection was raised in my council. I suggested that if the CD were given to essentially any Tenderfoot Scout, he would know how to burn CDs and could do so easily. If the PLC were asked to do it, it would be trivial.

Once again, this was a recruiting device designed for boy to boy in the mode of today's boys. It wasn't necessarily designed to give warm fuzzies to today's Scoutmasters.

If you want a copy of the CD, please shoot me your address.

I would agree that we do more for Cub Scouts now than for Boy Scouts (assuming that Cub Scouts is not one large recruiting activity for Boy Scouts). However, I think and hope that this is being addressed.

May I second what VentureScout writes.

When I hear of "Life to Eagle" classes, "Eagle Scout week" at Summer Camp, "Eagle Scout chairmen" or "Eagle Scout" mentors in Troops, it spikes my blood pressure.

Eagle Scout is supposed to be hard, not just tedious or labor intensive and not just physically hard, but requiring initiative, gumption and growth on the part of the boy. The candidate is supposed to have to stretch himself, take risks and grow. The idea is not that it is like a seat on the train where everybody arrives at the destination but rather like bushwhacking through the wilderness.

Now I know that parents and Troop leaders don't like this approach. Many parents want the very short path to being able to put "Eagle Scout" on the college application and on to other things. They don't want any risk and want to reduce the time, work, and risk to the absolute minimum.

But that's not how things are supposed to be. Some boys, perhaps sadly, perhaps not, should not receive the Eagle Scout award and they should not consider their time in Scouting as a failure because of it. Certainly, it should take initiative and work and risk.

An Eagle Scout should be able to read. He should be able to read the requirements for himself and be required to make his own judgements on what is meant by the requirements. If he needs clarification, obtaining that is part of the game and HE should be the one that figures out how to do that. Will that mean that some boys don't make Eagle. Probably so.

My council has Life to Eagle seminars but I oppose them. We have a Merit Badge University too, but at least this year, they stopped offering most of the Eagle Required Merit Badges.

There is a lot of complaining about the diminished capability and quality of Eagle Scouts today. I don't believe that the problem is with the youth but with us. We don't demand enough and don't demand that in meeting the Eagle Scout requirements, the boy display that he really, really wants to be an Eagle Scout and that he physically, mentally, morally and emotionally takes himself to the next level to achieve the Eagle.

I am also vehemently opposed to bribes and threats connected with the Eagle like "no wings, no wheels." (You can't have your driver's license until you get your Eagle Scout.)

Sorry about the soap box. But I believe that if you want to do the greatest service for youth, your Life to Eagle seminars should have a session for boys where they read the requirements and discuss among themselves what they mean and how to achieve them. At the same time, there should be a separate session for parents and Troop leaders where they are told how to make the Eagle difficult for boys, how to let the boys do all the work and how and why to let the boys alone.

At our recent Merit Badge University, we had such a session on "Scouting 101 for Parents." We discussed Scouting from a boy's perspective and from a parent's perspective and talked about what really is going on in a Boy Scout Troop.

In response to FOG's suggestion, may I make a suggestion of my own. Please write to the National Council and express your idea. I know of a number of cases where items have been clarified based on comments from the field, in some cases based on only one letter.

As far as why matters have not been clarified, the National Advancement group probably:

1) Thinks that matters are clear

2) Doesn't know that there is a problem

Believe it or not, National level volunteers and pros are human beings. They do their best but don't forsee every possibility when requirements are scrutinized by millions of pairs of eyes. So if there is a problem, do the courteous and kind thing and help them out.

Personally, I have never heard this Eagle Palm requirement discussed. I interpreted it as not requiring that the Scout hold a formal position in the Troop as he must for Eagle Scout. However, normally I interpret requirements as broadly as is reasonably possible which would mean that leadership outside of Scouting would certainly qualify.

My personal favorite is "It's a Lie" (The great historical bum). I also personally like "The Happy Wanderer."

Last year, in Northeast Region, the Wood Badge Course Director's Development Conference and the JLT Conference held a joint campfire run by the JLT youth. Suffice it to say that the songs weren't any that I had heard before and style was, shall we say, different from that when I was a Scout. However, the singing was loud and enthusiastic and the boys were happy to teach the songs to us old guys.

Hello Jeanne,

Here are some more sources for information:

1) The Fact Sheet on the Boy Scouts national web site

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xds&terms=order+of+the+arrow

2) The OA National Web Site

http://www.oa-bsa.org

As mentioned, the Order of the Arrow is an honor society of Boy Scout campers. Being elected is a very nice honor for a Scout. As a parent, you are entitled to know anything that you wish, so if you have further questions, please feel free to post them or to contact your local Scout office. We often try to keep OA information private so as not to spoil the experience for the Scouts, but any Scout leader or parent or religious leader is entitled to know anything that they choose.

Hello Eamonn,

The idea behind the Boy Scout recruiting CD was that the Troop would make copies of the CD for every boy in the Troop. And for you if you wish.

Making copies of CDs is an extremely inexpensive process. Often, I find that my local Staples has a deal where you can by 50 blank CDs for $10 and then get a $10 rebate. Most modern computers can easily burn copies of CDs.

Would you like a copy of the recruiting CD?