NeilLup

Hello Eamonn,

I believe there is great concern at the national level that:

1) Troops don't recruit

2) The very large fraction of new Boy Scouts have Cub Scouting background. The numbers I have seen suggest something like 90% have been Cub Scouts and about 75% or so have the Arrow of Light.

3) There is no good reason that Troops should not recruit. This is particularly true because one main reason that boys say they are dropping out of Cub Scouting is that they don't get camping. Which they would get in Boy Scouting.

National has tried a number of techniques to encourage and motivate Troops to recruit. They will continue this. I have found that a good recruiting night with fun activities can get new boys. But it has to be really exciting and often, the new boys come one at a time.

Group recruiting seems to work for Cub Scouting and the parents decide what the boy will do. In Boy Scouting, the boy decides and the recruiting is one to one.

Fotoscout raises an extremely good point. But just because a Pack is or is not sponsored by a church doesn't talk to whether they are welcoming or not. The key thing is the culture in the Pack.

When I was a Boy Scout, virtually every boy belonged to one church and all the men to their men's club. My father did not and, in fact, was a different religion. However, he was welcomed and was Advancement Chairman for the Troop.

I also know of PTA sponsored Packs or civic club sponsored Packs which are very clannish and don't welcome new people.

You certainly can, and should, volunteer to help with the Pack. You may or may not be welcomed. They may say "Sure, we'd be happy to have you help" but someone you never get called. Or you may get a real responsibility and become a member of the Pack leadership.

This is one of the things to look for in choosing a Pack.

I once saw a rather good description of what "boy run" vs "boy led" can mean.

Some Troops are run like a railroad. The boys get to blow the whistle and ring the bell, but all key decisions are made by the adults.

Other Troops give the boys a bit more freedom but are still like a railroad. Maybe the boys can start and stop the train and choose its speed. Maybe even they can throw the switches occasionally. But still, the tracks are laid out by the adults.

Other Troops run more like an airline. The boys can choose the airports they will visit, fly the plane under traffic control, etc.

Finally, some Troops run more like a car trip. The boys get a map and plan where they will go, choose the exact route, plan the stops, change the stops when necessary and essentially get to do everything limited only by traffic laws and the laws of physics.

There is a continuum from being a passenger on a train to being the planner and driver on a car trip. Exactly which each Troop is depends upon the capability of the boys, style of the adults, desires of the sponsors, size of the Troop, plans of parents, etc. When a skilled group of boys ages out and younger boys become the leaders, more training is needed and more adult guidance is in order.

It's a neverending cycle. That's why it's fun.

Hello NewScoutDad,

I'm sorry for what you and your son went through.

There is absolutely no reason that you know things about Scouting but here are some information which might help you.

Your pack is not particularly small. In fact, it likely is a bit larger than average. However, Cub Scout Packs are not run by the Boy Scouts of America. They are run by individual sponsors. Your sponsor (church) is chartered by the BSA to run your Pack. There may be one or more other Packs in your community run by other sponsors.

Most Packs are open but some, either formally or informally, are limited or largely limited to the membership of some church. You would seem to be connected with that kind of a Pack. This in itself isn't a problem if they are open and welcoming.

To answer your questions, in my opinion.

1) Are you overreacting? Kids can be cruel on each other and suffer from peaks and valleys. I remember that six year olds can be very much this way. From the point of view of a Scout volunteer, I think it is terribly regrettable that this situation happened in Scouting but it could have happened anywhere. JFK said "Life is unfair" and this kind of thing has happened to all of us and will happen again. I can understand your wanting to protect your son from it but as a parent, I can tell you that just isn't possible. What you can do is try to help him understand and cope and come out the far side. You can help him enjoy what he built and did and feel good about it. At age six, your approval and guidance mean a lot more than any prize. Your telling that you are proud of him means more than any prize.

2) Did the leadership handle this well? Obviously not. They handled it very poorly.

3) How should they have handled it? There are a number of ways that it could have been done. The basic idea is that a boy does not suffer or is not embarrassed because of something that he cannot control. I'm not completely sure how I would have handled it but there are many ways that six year old can be made completely happy. In a 50-60 boy Pack, very regrettably, the Pack leaders can, on occasion, let the feelings of one boy be hurt. Sadly, with children, that happens. And it is particularly painful if it is your child. But it is part of growing up.

What to do?

Done right, Scouting is a great organization. Our purpose is to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth and most of the time, we do it pretty well.

You need to get some information. You could contact your local Boy Scout Council office (phone book) and ask to talk to the District Executive who serves your community. Find out if there are any other Cub Scout Packs in your community. Find out what your other options are. Find out who the other sponsors are.

You then need to decide if you want to remain with your current Pack or consider moving to another one. Think about who the other sponsors are. Talk, if you wish, with the leader(s) of the other Packs. In connection with this, of course, you need to consider if you want to be connected with Cub Scouting at all. I hope you do. It's a great program.

One other factor in connection with considering your current Pack or another Pack. Most Cub Scout Packs are winding down about now for the summer. Your current Pack or another Pack might not do much more this year and if you transferred, there might not be much for your son to do. You might consider choosing the Pack that you wish but then becoming active again in September with your son as a Wolf Cub Scout. It's a different program and there will be plenty of time for the bad feelings to heal and be forgotten.

I'm sure some of the other posters will have some ideas also.

In our last Wood Badge, this gentleman and I put on the diversity presentation. I was prepared to wear a dashiki or whatever ethnic garb he wished if he would wear a "Fighting Whities" sweatshirt from the University of Northern Colorado. If I could have gotten one, I'm sure he would have too.

You certainly are correct about the hue and cry if there were a scholarship exclusively for whites. However, we do have several scholarships in our council which are only for certain communities or certain units and those effectively are for all whites. The percentage of people of color in those communities is infinitesimal and those fewindividuals, by and large, doen't need any financial help.

Hello Trail Pounder,

I believe that you didn't read what I wrote or what my colleague said. I didn't say that this gentleman would not pay for white Scouters. I did not say that he had said that he would pay only for people of color. What he said was that for cost should not be allowed to be an excuse for urban Scouters not to go to Wood Badge and he personally would see that it would not be a problem.

Our council has a policy that no one will be kept from training because of cost. This leader was reinforcing this policy and assuring that it would apply to a segment of our population which is seriously underserved.

It might be one thing if we were turning away leaders of one race to make space for leaders of another race. But our last couple of Wood Badges were not full.

I do find it interesting that you are so troubled by a leader donating money to expand outreach of Scouting to a group which is important to him and which is underserved by Scouting.

Hello Trail Pounder,

It may well fail your smell test and if so, so be it. However, you can give your money for whatever you choose and so can this individual. I am not stating that he would not provide scholarship money for other leaders. Rather, as we attempt to improve Scouting in the urban environment, we very commonly hear about the expense of uniforms, training, camping etc. Like it or not, agree or not, we do hear about it continually.

So this individual said that when Wood Badge is concerned, concerning urban Scouters in our council, he simply did not want to hear about cost as an excuse. He would provide the money for anyone who wanted to participate and truly could not afford it.

This person strongly believes in what Scouting did for him as a black man growing up and has said "Whenever I scratch the surface of a successful black man, I find Scouting." He wants to do everything that he can to bring the values of Scouting to the next generation of African American men who, he believes, badly need it.

With respect, Trail Pounder, if you disagree with this man's values, I have to say that is just too bad.

Hello Laurie,

A couple of Wood Badges ago, we had a woman show up the first weekend. She mentioned that both she and her husband were leaders and they both wanted to go but the coin came up tails, so she got to go first

When I ran a course recently, I budgeted some scholarship money into the course. My deal with the host council was that we would not deny anyone who truly could not afford it. If we then took so many below full fee that the course ran into the red, they council would not complain. Fortunately, we did OK financially.

One of our council VPs has agreed to provide scholarship money to any person of color who wants to go and needs help. He is one of the most eminent African American attorneys in the US.

As far as what is considered "trained", when I get there, I'll let you know. I still have more to learn.

There is always debate and discussion on what should be required. The idea is to require/recommend as much training as is reasonable balanced by what people realistically will do. If you look at what was required 40 years ago, it was much more than now. Not because people need training any less now but because they simply won't do it. So if the "required" training is considered too much, too demanding and requiring too much time, the result will not be that more people get training but rather fewer because the potential trainees don't even try.

So completing basic training now is:

Fast Start

New Leader Essentials

Position Specific Training (including Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills for SMs and ASMs)

Is Wood Badge a really good idea? I think so. Is it required? No because that was considered to be too much to require. Is a person who has been to Wood Badge able to be a better BSA leader than one who has not been? I strongly believe so. But, as was written above, if you send a monkey to training, you get back a trained monkey.

As a follow on concerning how an adult could become unconscious, a couple of years ago, my wife was on a hike where her tentmate who is diabetic went into insulin shock. It was pretty scary and she had to administer appropriate wilderness first aid several miles from the trailhead.

On our last Wood Badge, there were 8 people (staff plus participants) whose medical form said they were diabetic.

Also, to add to Eamonn's post, the ER will treat if THEY think it is life threatening I believe to the extent that they believe it is no longer life threatening.

There also needs to be a modification to permission slips due to HIPPA regulations which permit the unit leaders to receive information on the Scout. I recently heard of a story where a Scout was taken into the ER with a permission slip and the Scout was treated. The SM then asked how the Scout was and was told "We can't tell you. Your permission slip gives you the right to order treatment and we treated the Scout. But under the new privacy laws, unless the permission slip explicitly gives you the right to know, only the parent can find out what the status is and what we did."

I don't believe the BSA medical form has been modified yet in line with HIPPA.

Hello Greeneagle,

If you look at the front of the BSA medical form, you will see a medical permission statement for the parents to sign.

I would hope that EVERY unit would take medical forms on EVERY outing. I won't bore you with war stories, but you would be amazed what would not be considered an emergency (meaning that parental permission is required) if you don't have those forms.

Also, particularly for major trips, be sure that you have a FRESH form. It can make a big difference if the form was signed a couple of days before and if it is a year old. Under any circumstances, the form should not be more than a year old.

And even with all this, emergency rooms can still decline to treat other than relief of pain until parents are physically present. So be sure, if possible, to have good contact information for parents including cell phones, etc. There are circumstances where the emergency room will want to talk to the parents before doing anything.

One final thought. Be sure to have medical permission forms for the adults too. I heard of at least one situation where an adult was unconscious and a form was needed for that adult.

I can hardly thing of a better example of Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful and Friendly than the one that you set. This will be a life lesson for some of these boys.

I well remember that my first Scoutmaster remained active for several months after his son dropped out.

Thank you.

Having been a volunteer in 10 councils ranging from the largest (GNYC) to one of the smallest (15 units, I think this is a great question.

There are pluses and minuses to a larger council. The pluses are that the resources are there to do a great job with the basics and to have plenty of extras. The minuses are that communications can get to be a problem.

The best experience for a district or council level volunteer can be in a wealthy, well funded small council. The worse experience is in a small council in deep debt or other financial trouble. Everything is difficult and a matter of compromise and making do. Nothing is fun or particularly rewarding. And children suffer because camp quality suffers and service to units suffers.

My current council has about 20,000 youth members. My current volunteer job is Vice President for Operations of the council. The District Chairmen report to me and it is my job to ensure that the units get good service and the Districts operate well.

From the point of view of unit, it really shouldn't matter if you are in a large or a small council provided that you get the services that you want and need, and actually in a larger council, that should be more possible. The problems come if communications break down. Another problem comes if the the council becomes centrallized and the Scout Executive demands to be involved in every decision. In a large council, that really isn't possible. For things to work, decisions need to be delegated. And at the same time, many of us Scout leaders like to deal with the top guy. In a large council, the SE just can't be involved in every Eagle Board or Blue and Gold.

Typically when a merger occurs, there are meetings to describe the new structure. Attend one or more of those meetings and say something like "I understand and agree that the larger council will offer more opportunities, but I understand that communications can be a problem in a larger council. What is going to be done to improve communications and make sure that the units can get what they want?" If possible, don't accept the answer that they will use the normal district structure with Commissioner service, etc. That communication structure often is greatly strained in a merger. Perhaps there will be a task force on communications in the new council and you can be on it.

Done right, a larger council offers more. But it requires a bit more understanding on the part of the units to make things work. There is less room for hand holding by the council and for waiting until the last minute to sign up for events, etc.

Hello hops,

It's great to have you post.

I am sure you know this and you haven't said where you are in school, but try to be sure to have your Eagle Scout completed by the time you begin applying to USMA. I understand that it really does make a difference.

If you have been Boy Scouts for 4 years, that suggests that you are 15. You probably want to have your Eagle Scout by the summer after your junior year, so that probably gives you about a year.

Hello Carl,

I am sure that any "BSA policy" would be to follow the US Flag Code and follow the wishes of the parade sponsors (assuming no disrespect, no inappropriate commercial ventures, etc.)

As far as individuals trying to get you thrown out of Scouting for this, a technical violation of the Flag Code by carrying such a huge flag in a parade in accordance with the wishes of the parade sponsors is the proverbial flea on the hair on the wart on the leg on the frog on the log in the bottom of the sea in terms of importance.

I don't want to speculate on what would have happened had I tried to wear my Eagle Scout medal at my wedding. Likely my marriage would have been brief, if not nonexistent, and my daughter would never have been.

I did want to respond to the post by OGE although that was 3 years ago. He said that the "Eagle is the only rank you carry into adulthood." It is true that Eagle Scout is the only rank that one can wear on an adult uniform. However, as other posters have said, any Scouting rank is carried 24/7. I am sure that persons who were Life Scouts or Tenderfoot Scouts or Webelos Scouts or Wolf Cub Scouts or whatever carry that to adulthood.

I am sorry that you have this problem but this kind of thing does occasionally happen and not, necessarily, only in Scouting.

To answer your questions as best I understand matters:

1) Can you kick the parent out? Not sure what you would kick them out from. If they are not a registered leader, then you cannot terminate their registration.

2) Can you kick the boy out? I believe you can. The membership of all of us, youth and adults, is subject to the review by the individual or organization who appointed us.

3) Can she sue you? In our American legal system, virtually anyone can sue virtually anyone else for virtually anything. Would she WIN? That's another matter. One of things you get as a registered BSA leader is the BSA's legal defense for your reasonable actions as a leader. So if you get a subpoena or notice of lawsuit, your immediate first action is to contact your council office. They take it from there and there is no cost to you.

4) As far as her comment "Wild horses could not drag me away" you may have to say, at some point, "This is not a suggestion. You are not welcome. Please do not return."

What to do? Here is what I would do.

a) Involving a paid professional -- simply phone your council office and ask to talk with the District Executive who handles your area. They will assist you.

b) Involving a skilled volunteer -- If your unit has a good Commissioner, they should be able to help you also. Try to find that person

c) I would get as much back-up in my unit as possible. I would bring this matter up at the Pack Committee and get their endorsement and support for whatever needs to be done. Ideally, this matter would be handled by the Committee rather than by you although you may need to do it.

d) Resolve upon your course of action - This could be saying telling her that if her behavior continues, she is unwelcome and that her son is welcome only if she changes her behavior. Do not let it get into a "I have my rights." and "I was only protecting my son." and things like that. It is appropriate to say "If you feel that you need to act like this, then this Pack is probably not for you and not for your son. If that is the case, we accept your resignation from the Pack."

e) Before stating that, however, I would suggest having a vote from the Committee that this is appropriate and letting both your Sponsoring Organization and the Council Office know what you plan. You need to have them on your side if the woman starts making noise.

There would seem to be a personality conflict of some sort. You don't need that and I would suggest that you need to make it clear that you won't tolerate the kind of action you describe. However, my wife often tells me that it takes two to fight and you may need to look at whether there is anything going on with the Den Leader which provokes this kind of behavior on the part of the mother.

Hello acco,

I think your answer is in your post just above. If your purpose is to drain the swamp (obtain storage space) rather than to get into a microbiological investigation of what lives in the swamp, then could you ask your chartering organization, which is a welcoming community, to obtain the storage space for you. You are, after all, their youth group and they pretty clearly would qualify under the terms that the storage organization wishes.

Another "intermediate" approach that I have seen used is to have the patrol members elect the Patrol Leaders, then have the newly elected Patrol Leaders elect the SPL. Sometimes, this means that one of the PLs becomes the new SPL and that patrol must have a second election.

Hello Bob White,

You are absolutely correct. The OA Chief was registered as and completed training as ASM.

It was a looong time ago that I looked at such things, but I believe that only ASM could be 18. I thought that ACM had to be 21. I thought the only other "adult" position that one could hold between 18 and 21 was Merit Badge Counselor. I know that one can be a "youth" Venturer; I don't know about the rules for Venturing leaders.

Brent,

If you have the opportunity, go. You will have a great time and will learn much that will be of value in Scouting, in your job and even with your family.

We have a young man in our council who took WB in Atlanta. They do things a bit differently but not in that differently. I believe that the "invitation" would be automatic once your qualifications are verified.

Wood Badge courses now are encouraged to have as many Cub Scout leaders and Venturing leaders as possible. On our last course, about 25% of participants were Cub Scout leaders. Our next course director has done all her Scouting time in Cub Scouts and went to Cub Scout Trainer's Wood Badge when that was still being run. Wood Badge will make you a better Cub Scout leader and will help you when and if you decide to become a Boy Scout leader or Venturing leader.

Bob White, one piece of additional information if I may. I believe that one must be an adult leader and complete the training prerequisites. However, one is considered an adult leader at 18. We had one 18 year old on our last course who recently was elected OA chief for the Northeast Region.

Brent, it is true that you should have an idea of what Scouting job you will be doing. However, that is not handcuffs. IF you change jobs, you can change your "ticket" (written documentation of tasks you plan to accomplish) accordingly.

You will have a wonderful time. Atlanta has great people and does a great job.

Interesting question about why the color scheme was changed. No idea.

However, that previous color scheme was, and I believe still is, the scheme used in the backing on service stars.

Interesting question here.

I would suggest that you want the Scout to know enough that when he gets a bit older and needs to consider buying insurance, he has at least heard about the types and can't be taken for a ride. And that he knows where he can get additional information if he wishes it. But not so much that you turn the Scout off.

In addition to the differences you mentioned, most whole life that I know about also builds up cash value while term life does not.

If you can get across the concept that one should consider the lifetime cost of a product rather than just the purchase price, you have done a very valuable thing.

Is Outdoor Thinker incoming Venturing President or outgoing Venturing President (whom I have met).

Let me thank Barry for encouraging me to clarify what I mean, first to myself and then on the board.

If a boy wants to be a leader, I would help him to achieve that goal. That means that if he isn't elected to a position like SPL or PL, I would work with the SPL to find an appropriate appointive job. I would try to help identify what the boy's talents are and then guide the SPL toward appointing him to the position.

If, by some chance, that doesn't work and the boy is going for Star Scout or Life Scout, I would find an appropriate project for him to demonstrate leadership, meet the leadership requirement for advancement, and also show the Troop that he is a leader.

Having done this, I would hold a Troop level JLT for all the youth leaders in the Troop to ensure that they have the knowledge, skills and attitude to do their job. I would see that the top one or two Scouts get to go to Council JLT. Our council's OA holds a unit level JLT and I would get as many boys as possible to that JLT.

Finally, we talk about "successful failure." That means that a boy can have a leadership experience which, objectively, is a failure. I would ensure that this doesn't represent a scarlet letter for the boy. I would counsel with the boy about what happened and why and try to help him avoid those problems in the future. And I would try to create a culture in the Troop where risk taking is encouraged and failure doesn't mean recrimination and permanent ruining of one's reputation and of future opportunity.

Plus, I would try to ensure that there is all the difference in the world between doing one's best and not succeeding and not putting in the time and not doing one's best. I would try to create the attitude that it is much better to go to bat and take three good swings and strike out than to decline to go to bat.

I think and hope this makes sense, Barry. I have been disappointed that unit level JLT has not received more concentration at the National level. I hope that will be addressed soon.

I am quite willing to come out very explicitly with what I think.

There is, in my opinion, a big difference between "wants" and "needs." Nobody in a Troop really "needs" anything. One can say "But he has to have a leadership position in order to advance." Fair enough, but who said that he has to advance. Nobody "needs" to advance.

Wants is another matter. If a boy wants to advance then he presumably wants to meet the requirements in order to advance. I believe that an opportunity for leadership should be made available for any boy who really wants to display and practice leadership and become a better leader. If a boy comes to me and says "I want to be a leader and help the Troop" I will do everything I can to make it happen. Leadership is a method of Scouting just like the uniform or camping or advancement.

And it should be possible too. There is no limit in the number of Troop Instructors that a Troop can have. There very rarely are enough Den Chiefs. And for advancment below Eagle Scout, there can be a Scoutmaster assigned project to meet the leadership requirement.

If there is a boy who truly wants to be a leader whom the SPL won't give the opportunity to because of a personality conflict or spat or something like that, then it may be time for some counseling of the SPL. Part of the training of the SPL is, in my opinion, getting along with all rather than just packing the leadership structure with your buddies.