NeilLup

I have never met anyone who regrets being pushed to earn the Eagle Scout award.

I have met people who have earned the Eagle to whom it doesn't seem to mean much. And I have met people who have earned the Eagle who didn't seem to understand the Scout Oath and Law.

I have met plenty of wonderful people and wonderful Scouters who had not earned the Eagle Scout award. Many of them regretted not earning it. But I'm not sure I ever met someone who wished they had been pushed to earn it.

You may think that becoming an adult is a matter of having a 21st birthday, etc. It is not. It is a matter of the kind of experiences you have just had. You took a major step in becoming an adult. Congratulations.

My cousin makes the distinction between adults and "tall people". Just because someone is a tall person does not mean they will behave like an adult. You still do need to show them appropriate respect, just as we all do. But you know the difference between an adult and a tall person. When you have to deal with a tall person, you have to try to do your best.

Did you do right? Well, you certainly didn't do wrong. There were a number of acceptable things you could do and what you did was one of them. Might there have been a way which would have ended up with less acrimony. Possibly, but I wasn't there and likely wouldn't know if I had been there. That's one of the things about being an adult. You are faced with a situation, you do your best and you take what comes and move on.

I completely agree that your SM put you in a difficult position. He may have chosen to be a tall person rather than an adult in this case. If the woman is the way you describe, that might be understandable.

Still, the Scout Oath and Law do not require you to be perfect, or to succeed. They just require you to do your do your best. You did that in a difficult situation. Congratulations.

Also, you are now assessing your actions and asking if you could have done better and how and why. That's what an adult does. Congratulations.

As a final thought, it is possible that you did have some enjoyment of telling this woman off. If would be difficult not to. That may have shone through. You might note that and if, in the future, you find yourself really enjoying this kind of situation where you know that you have license to tell somebody off, then realizing that it may be a problem.

You have received some extremely wise counsel. The final line of Saltheart's post is exceedingly wise.

One of the most difficult thing that a parent has to do is sit back when their child makes choices other than those that the parent would choose or prefer. Most of us who are parents have bitemarks on our tongues from that.

We have no sons and only one daughter. She was on staff of our council's summer camp one summer and the next summer, was invited to be a Philmont ranger. This was an opportunity that, as a boy, I would have killed for. She turned it down saying "Dad, that's your thing and not mine." Now, over a decade later, knowing what she did that summer, I can say that her decision was very wise, but it broke my heart at the time.

Advancement is not an aim of Scouting. It is a method and only one method. Because it is the most tangible method and most publicly acknowledged, many people and certainly many parents feel that only if one has been an Eagle Scout has one's Scouting time been successful. Not so.

I recently was at a meeting in a conversation with 3 individuals. One had recently been elected a Regional President in the BSA and owned a very successful communication company. The second was a member of the National Advisory Council of the BSA and is a management and training consultant to major companies. The third is an Admiral in the Navy, on the National Boy Scouting Committee and a high level leader on the Jamboree staff. All of them love Scouting and for them, it is a major commitment of their adult life. All three, for one reason or another, had never completed the Eagle Scout award but were Life Scouts. They joked about forming the "National Life Scout Association." I don't think that the success of any of those individuals was diminished because they weren't Eagle Scouts, nor that their citizenship, character and fitness impaired, nor their commitment to Scouting impacted.

It is unlikely, although possible, that for some reason, your son actively does not want to become an Eagle Scout at this time. I was trying to recruit a parent to become a Cub Scout leader recently. She declined stating "By becoming a Cub Scout leader, in my community I am perceived as publicly taking a position in opposition to gay rights. I am not willing to do that." Also, with you family history and your wife's he may just, at this point, be charting his own path.

One final thought. Even if his birthday is tomorrow, he is then 16. He has TWO YEARS to finish. In the life of a teenager, that's enough time for the dinosaurs to come to be and then become extinct. I am sure you have seen the number of youth who, at the last minute, decide to become Eagle Scouts and finish the requirements. That may happen. As you certainly know, it happens with many others.

However, based on experience, if you push him beyond a certain point, it will likely be counterproductive. I have seen boys complete their Eagle because of parental pressure or blackmailing (No wings, no wheels) and then walk out, turned completely off to Scouting. You can indicate your support for what he wants to do and, very infrequently, like once every six months, ask if there is anything you can do to help him finish his Eagle Scout. But it sounds as if he is a wonderful Scouting success and whether he earns the Eagle or not, he will be a wonderful Scouting success.

I completely agree with you, Sctmom. That's why I have a problem with stating that the BSA and GSUSA programs are designed to meet the respective needs of boys and girls.

The GSUSA program has been described to me by most of the women I know who are familiar with it (including my wife and daughter) as "knitting doilies" and doing girly-girl type stuff while the BSA program is independence, leadership, camping, high adventure, etc. (Again, these words come from my wife and daughter) A relative of mine has just failed to complete her Gold Award because of the project. She was essentially required to do a project involving sewing and making clothing for people in eastern Europe. She received no help but plenty of criticism from her local GSUSA council. This young woman has just started her freshman year at MIT and is planning to major in Chemical Engineering while doing crew, so she is no wimp.

I guess I am a bit confused by the conclusion of your post. If you are stating that young women are not taken as seriously and still need help to be taken seriously and as equals? I agree. That's why I have a problem with the stating that the "girly-girl" program of GSUSA meets the unique needs of girls. If you are stating that the program should be challenging and demanding but separate so that the girls don't feel societal pressure relative to boys, then I am comfortable with that although I don't necessarily agree with completely separate organizations. It was for similar reasons that our daughter went to an all girls middle and high school. But that relates to organizational structure, not to program.

And not that there's anything wrong with "girly-girl" if that's what the particular young woman desires. But I would suggest that it should not be the only or even necessarily the preferred alternative.

Young women today have, in my opinion, a much tougher time charting their live's course than do young men. (Mommy track vs career track) They have many more options many of which are limiting in terms of other options and alternatives. I have heard of some young women's dilemma described as "paralysis by options." But the GSUSA program, as it has been described to me, does not aid the young women in coping with all these choices. Rather, it tracks the young women into the option patterns deemed suitable by the leaders of GSUSA (not that BSA is at all innocent of this type of tracking.)

I understand that the GSUSA program can be challenging and demanding if the leaders so structure it. But that seems to be the exception based on what I have heard and the training and senior leadership of GSUSA seems to teach away from this. In contrast, the training and senior leadership of BSA seems to teach toward youth leadership, independence, camping, adventure, etc.

Please don't shoot the messenger if you disagree with me. I understand that my comments are anecdotal but reasonably wide-spread anecdotal. So single instance anecdotal information to the contrary will, I fear, not help me to view GSUSA in a different light.

Twocubdad,

The answer to both of your questions is yes.

However, it isn't a simple black/white question.

The "religious reference" is intended to help the Eagle Scout Board of Review assess the Scout's suitability to become an Eagle Scout. The Board really doesn't have (or at least shouldn't have) a choice whether to accept a reference. What they can do is make a decision that the Scout has not met the "Duty to God" requirement and so is not qualified to become an Eagle Scout. If they do turn the boy down, they are required to state in writing why the decision was made and what the boy needs to do to address the matter. The Scout can then appeal the decision if he finds it inappropriate.

If a Board would turn down a boy because they judged his reference unsuitable, he again could appeal, first to the local council, then to National. I am exceedingly confident that in the first case you mention, that appeal would be upheld. In the second case, it likely would be upheld.

If the District or Council refused to hold a Board because they found the reference unsuitable, again the Scout can appeal and, if necessary, the local council, area or region would take necessary action to be sure that the Scout was treated fairly.

Every time that I read the last line of Sctmom's post, I want to comment. I just can't hold off any longer.

I'm not sure that today's boys and girls have needs that are that different.

It is clear that BSA and GSUSA have different agendas. I believe that the adult leaders of BSA and GSUSA have different needs. And I believe that the national, council and unit leaders of BSA and GSUSA perceive that boys and girls have different needs.

I would like to comment on Chippewa's story also. I had a boss once who was a BSA leader. He took his son on camping trips, including a 50 miler at age 8. Kid had a great time, was no problem etc. However, when he turned 11, he had no interest at all in joining the Troop. Said that he had done everything. Father was heartbroken.

It's important to remember that for kids, camping is the excitment and is much of Scouting. However, we adults know that camping is the lure that gets the kid to stay around for the citizenship and character training. More than once, I have heard "No boy joins Scouting to have his character improved."

The problem is that boys younger than 11 certainly can physically, and in some cases mentally, handle Scout camping. However, if we burn out the lure, then they won't have reason to stay around for the citizenship and character training and boy leadership which really does require age 11 or older in most cases.

I would also comment here that the case listed was not just a 6 year old, but a 6 year old who appeared to cause some problems for some Troop members. Scouting is supposed to be fun for the members. Allowing this 6 year old to come along may spoil some of the fun for the Troop members. If the Troop does that very much, attendance and participation may well suffer.

I believe that I agree completely with Bob White. However, you should know that in some parts of the country, you may need to push and possibly appeal to have that interpretation accepted. In other words, absent a reference from the Scout's personal religious leader, the board will not happen.

I have heard of parents and possibly Scout leaders providing the religious reference. I also know of cases where the Scout chooses not to provide a religious reference and simply states "not provided" on the form. In these cases, of course, the Scout can expect the Board to pay particular attention to the "A Scout is Reverent" and to ensuring that the Scout has met that requirement. It is, of course, much, much simpler and more straightforward to provide the reference.

Concerning the comments and terminology of OGE.

Please be nice to those of us who speak Olde English.

Concerning the "Troop Account" paying for the trip.

A sad lesson that I learned awhile ago dealing with Wood Badge scholarships.

Even if there is a full scholarship, we ask the person to pay a significant part of the cost up front. Then, when they complete the course, they get the money back. If they don't show or drop out, no reimbursement.

I would always suggest such an arrangement to ensure that there is some real commitment to participation.

To respond to the original question, there might be another possibility.

G2SS says that two deep adult leadership is required for an outing and at least one must be 21 or over. Presumably that means the other could be 18-20.

However, for OA purposes, a person is not an "adult" until they are 21. So for OA purposes, a person 18-20 is considered a youth.

So on an OA event, one could have one adult (age 21 or older) and one "youth" age 18-20 to provide leadership and still meet the letter of the G2SS.

As far as the matter of patrol outings, etc. I one time did verify and the rules mean what they seem to say. It is, under some circumstances, acceptable to have zero adults at a campout. It is certainly acceptable to have two or more adults at a campout. It is never acceptable to have one and only one adult at a campout.

Confusing? You bet it is. But this is, after all, the BSA.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

The National Council recently issued a free CD to go to every Scoutmaster. If you haven't gotten yours, check with your local council. It is packaged in a backpack like envelope and is new for fall 2003.

The idea is that the Troop makes copies of the CD and gives them to every Scout. The Scout can then use the CD to make videos and other things to encourage their friends to join the Troop. Using the CD, they can then send these videos to their friends.

No cost, other than the cost of the CDs. Sometimes the stores in our area have a deal where you buy 50 blank CDs for $10, then get a $10 rebate. You figure it out, I can't. Many computers have a CD burner, so it is easy to do.

I guess if your Troop insists on 1 day camps, I might be OK with a couple of family camp days for a Life Scout. I'd have real trouble with a Tenderfoot Scout qualifying for Camping merit badge based on a 6 day summer camp and 14 days of family camping.

I noted the sleep under stars or under canvas requirement. In our part of the country, and I suspect in yours, the weather makes that impractical if not unpleasant for several of the Scouting months of the year. (Of course, one could hairsplit and say that we always sleep under the stars. Just sometimes, there is a roof between us and the stars.) Would you count a lean-to as under the stars or not? If your Troop doesn't camp in the summer, it could limit the number of days technically qualifying to 5 or 6 per year. That is a bit draconian.

Troop Historian, eh? Can be an interesting job if you want it to be.

Here are some possibilities (depending upon how good and how interested the Troop Scribe is.)

1)Webmaster for the Troop or else for the history section of the Troop website (listing and biographies of past Eagle Scouts and SMs, past great campouts, etc.)

2) History section of the Troop Newspaper (You do have a Troop Newspaper, don't you? If not, maybe editor of the Troop Newspaper.)

3) Organize (or coordinate or support) a Troop reunion.

4) Organize (or coordinate or support) an exhibit on Troop History for the Troop Meeting Room or for Courts of Honor.

I'm sure your son can think of some others. I note that several posters have suggested photos, etc. I hope that if your son does that, he has access to a digital camera. It makes things like this SO much easier.

BTW, I noted that your original post was about advancement. You should know that, officially, the only requirement for advancement is to hold the job; there is no performance standard. (Some Troops do, of course, impose a performance standard.

I would suggest that you try to arrange that an ASM or Troop Committee member be assigned to work with the Historian. Maybe even the COR if they are an oldtimer with the Chartered Organization. Part of the reason that Historian can be a nothing job is that no adult cares about it.

Troop Historian can be a very good starting place. It gives the boy a chance to be in the spotlight on occasion, but it causes no real harm if nothing gets done.

A couple of thoughts, inspired largely by the posts of FScouter and TrailPounder.

It is very easy to get confused about Venture Patrols and Venturing Crews. Sound the same but are completely different.

Venture Patrols - Are part of a Boy Scout Troop. They consist of the older boys, wear Boy Scout Uniforms, earn Boy Scout advancement, etc.

Venturing Crews - Are not part of a Boy Scout Troop. They have separate registration. Can be members from age 14 through 21 as youth. Can be coed. Have a completely different advancement program leading to the Silver Award. Their official uniform is Forest Green. Can complete Boy Scout advancement if they earned First Class Scout in a Boy Scout Troop.

As far as why the same name is used by the BSA for two completely different programs, that's a story for another day.

Uniforms are another interesting matter. Venturers can vote on whatever they choose as their Crew uniform. I know of one Venturer who showed up for his Eagle Scout Board of Review wearing the Forest Green shirt and blue jeans. Was berated by one of the board members. Informed the Board that his Crew had voted that their official Crew uniform is Forest Green shirt and blue jeans. Was apologized to by the chairman of the Board.

I don't have a copy of the Venturing uniform guide here, but arguably, a Crew could vote that their official Crew uniform included the square knots.

Normally, I am so happy to see

1) Older youth involved

2) Older youth in uniform wearing square knots

that I am not going to complain about details

Hello AdvanceOn,

A couple more thoughts. You might involve your District Advancement Chairman in this also. It certainly is possible to have Boards of Review as a Roundtable topic with a model Board of Review. You then just need to be sure that the people from this Troop go to that Roundtable.

Also, concerning the Commissioner on the Board, you can show them in "black and white" that the Board of Review for ranks other than Eagle Scout is comprised of Troop Committee members. That is in the Advancement Rules and Regulations book (probably not the exact title). So, as a Commissioner, he or she is not appropriate as a BOR member except, perhaps, as an observer. Certainly not as a voting member.

Hello Padre,

As a person who has directed a 21st Century WB Course, I'm rather troubled by your post. Not suggesting that it is inaccurate bur that things are happening that shouldn't be.

I have seen people take Scouting too seriously and certainly have seen people take WB too seriously. My wife accuses me of that. She's probably correct.

When 21st Century WB came out, there was confusion over the ticket relative to previous tickets. I think that much of that has been resolved now but not all.

The ticket should lay out items which will enable the person to do a better job in their Scouting job(s). It's not supposed to be a major increment in work done.

One of the guidelines for staff on 21st Century WB is that the staff is not allowed to be asked to write a staff ticket and that only 3 staff developments are allowed. The reason is that staff preparation and service was taking too much time in previous courses. If that kind of consideration applies to staff, it certainly should apply to participants.

So, from what you have written, someone in your wife's course is taking WB and the ticket MUCH too seriously. Perhaps the staff. And, not intending to be offensive, perhaps her.

I know that if I learned of such a problem with a person I was ticket counseling, I would want to counsel pretty seriously with the participant and perhaps with the participant plus spouse. Scouting is supposed to be a family program that strengthens families, not one that hurts them.

Given a choice where religious considerations don't enter, I would select Monday.

1) There are several 3 day weekends you can run onto . These mean that your participants and staff only need take one vacation day

2) Particularly the second weekend, Day 4 is the day where there are youth staff. If you run Sat Sun Mon, then they work on Saturday. If you run Friday, Sat Sun, then they work Friday and need to get a day off from school. Of course, there isn't really any reason not to run Fri, Sat Sun one weekend and Sat Sun, Mon the other but that likely would be confusing for your participants.