NeilLup

1) As far as submitting square knot ideas (or any ideas) you can just write up your idea and send it to the Chief Scout Executive. Or, if you can identify the program group involved, you can send it to them. Every such idea does get considered carefully and I know of several cases where a single letter caused a change in a program or in literature

2) As far a why an idea for a square knot might not be approved. I believe there is a perception that there are too many square knots now.

3) The Wood Badge square knot isn't a totally crazy idea. For safety reasons, Sea Scout leaders don't wear a leather lanyard around their neck. So they don't wear the traditional Wood Badge.

Hello Bob,

By the letter of the law, you're probably right. As a practical matter, the Troop Guide is probably pretty much of the leader when the New Boy Patrol is first formed. Then, as the Scouts gain experience, their Patrol Leader takes more and more leadership and the Troop Guide backs off.

I do note that the Troop Guide patch has two green bars. I have always presumed that isn't just moss growing on the patch

Laurie, you absolutely are correct.

It is appropriate for leaders to try things and fail. One of the benefits for BSA leaders is that they learn too. If we are required to be perfect, that is a tough standard.

But this matter of perfection is one of the challenges I believe we face in going from Webelos Scouts to Boy Scouts. In a Webelos Den, the leader is an adult and the boy gets plenty of close interaction with the adult and the adult is their prime leader. Then they go into a Boy Scout Troop and their prime leader (the Patrol leader) is a boy, probably not much older than they are, inexperienced, likely untrained, making plenty of personal and skill mistakes and possibly not that committed. The PL is learning plenty but each such learning experience may impact the enjoyment of the patrol members.

And, in my opinion, at the same time, the competition for the boy's time is Disney, the tube, Nintendo, etc. and other experiences that spend a great deal of time and money being as perfect and exciting as possible. It is an interesting challenge and one of the major balancing acts which, I believe, a Troop leader needs to achieve.

This is part of the reason for the New Boy Patrol concept. The leader there (the Troop Guide) should be a very experienced boy leader and one who is ready and able to do a fine job of leadership.

Hello Dcarlton,

Welcome to the forum.

I understand that almost 95% of Varsity units are chartered to the LDS church. The Varsity program is designed to meet some very targeted program needs of that church and it does that very well. It really has not had much usage outside the LDS church.

Varsity units are part of Boy Scouting at this time. Venturing is a separate program.

It is possible that Varsity could, at some point, become part of Venturing. However, unless something changed in the BSA or in the LDS church, it still would be essentially what it is now because that is the program of value to the LDS church. It would have no impact on the other sub-specialties available in Venturing -- high adventure, Sea Scouting, religious training, etc.

I wouldn't get particularly worked up about it. My observation is that LDS Scouting happens and neither increases nor decreases much based on influences outside the LDS church. Unless you are a member and leader in that church, you won't have a big impact. But it won't matter. You can have a big impact on Scouting and Venturing elsewhere and that is where you should concentrate.

One final thought, Eaglewings,

If you approach your Cubmaster candidate as if you were going to condemn them to several years of misery and you desperately hope they will take it, then they likely will approach it that way.

On the other hand, if you regard it as giving them an opportunity to have a great deal of fun and make a real difference to boys and maybe, just maybe, if they want it enough, you will give them the chance, then they will approach it that way.

I have also found that it helps greatly in recruiting a new leader if you are able to say that several leaders are already in place to help them.

National council At-Large Members are, I believe, nominated by the national nominating committee and elected by the annual meeting. The lists are compiled by the national office and by the regions. I know, for example, that all national committee members are national members at large if not in higher level positions (National Board or National Advisory council.)

I'm not sure what honorary, non-voting members are. If you mean positions like the Honorary President and Honorary Vice Presidents, there is tradition and, in some cases, by laws designation of who they are.

Hello SPLT15

I am sorry about your semester grade but that kind of thing can happen. As far as that and your accepting Jesus, may I suggest some advice. It is from another religion (St. Ignatius Loyola)

"Pray as if everything depended upon God, work as if everything depended upon you."

It may be very appropriate for you to ask Jesus to be the copilot of your life, but you are still the pilot.

Hello Laurie,

Sounds as if the training you and your husband took was good. Well within the acceptable range for how training should be.

Cub Scouting, as you know, is a family oriented program where adults do almost all of the leading.

Boy Scouting is a much more group oriented program where the older boys, in a good Troop, do much of the leading. So the idea in training is to teach the adults that this should happen and how to make it happen. Not always easy on either one.

Cub Scout leadership and parenting of boys that age are pretty similar from my observation.

Boy Scout leadership and parenting of boys that age can be very different. It can be TOUGH for parents to let loose.

So to answer your question, is there a training for CS leaders and/or parents whose boys are becoming Boy Scouts? Not really and maybe that is an oversight. However, part of the idea behind the "training continuum" is that a CS leader knows about the general idea of the BSA, has taken Fast Start and New Leader orientation and maybe even Wood Badge and so knows a bit about Boy Scouting. So taking BS Fast Start and BS position specific is thought to be enough.

But maybe we have an oversight.

I might mention something else about our Merit Badge University which is described in the January 2004 Boy's Life. It occurs on TWO Saturdays about 4 weeks apart. In the first one, the Scouts are introduced to the Merit Badge, meet the counselor, do a little and are given at-home assignments. In the second, they bring back the assignments and meet again with the counselor. Perhaps they earn the badge then.

Nobody gets the badge in one day.

I think your son should go, Scoutmom with this caution. It is possible that it IS just a merit badge mill. I have seen those.

You also need to ask what happens if your son goes, completes one or more MBs, and then the Troop says "we don't accept those." Technically, they can't refuse a signed application but it could be ugly. Make sure they know that you plan to take your son anyway.

BTW, if you want to see a write up on a GREAT MBUniversity, check out January Boy's Life. The Harvard MBU is in our council.

Congratulations, ManyIrons and thank you for taking the time and effort to go to WB and complete your ticket.

Now part of your challenge is to encourage other leaders to go.

Good but sad counsel.

One hears about this kind of thing fairly frequently. When you contact the parents, expect either a hostile reception or a tale of woe which will make you bleed. Expect "A Scout is Friendly" and "A Scout is Kind" to be sorely tested. You need to be prepared, in advance, with what you will do and likely follow through.

Most likely, it is not the boy. Rather, it is the parents who are having exceedingly hard times. If possible, you need to figure out how to get the money while showing a lesson on responsibility to the boy. Tough job!

The wonderful comments by andrew, Eagle and Twocubdad outline precisely the dilemma faced by National developers of training materials. The material must be:

1) Clear so that the trainers can understand it and present what is intended

2) Targeted at what is intended

3) Cover the materials desired by the participants

4) Achieve the training objectives set by BSA Nationally and Locally

5) Fun for all concerned

6) Able to be presented to one person or to a large group

7) Not requiring inappropriate or too much preparation, resources, etc.

8) etc. etc.

So if you present what the participants really want (how to live through the next meeting , then you may end up with great meetings which do not address and achieve the objectives of Scouting. On the other hand, if there is too much Scouting theory, etc. and too much heavy citizenship, religion, safety, Guide to Safe Scouting, finance, etc. then it can be deadly dull.

And there is a limit on how much training people will take and how many hours they will spend. They are basically "uncommitted" volunteers coming to training not only to learn stuff but also to decide whether the BSA is an organization for their more in depth involvement.

In previous generations of Wood Badge, there was a Leadership skill (I think representing the group) which talked about the balance between Keeping the Group together and Getting the job done. In later years, that was presented as a seesaw or balance but I think that was unfortunate. The earlier presentation, more complicated, was as a right angle chart. One could maximize either or both Keeping the Group together and Getting the job done.

Ideally, a good trainer running a good training can do both. The problem is that, as in many Scout activities, we need to ensure that the bottom 10% of trainers can still produce a completely acceptable product. The BSA can't rely on a training which requires super good trainers to put on.

So this is part of the problem which can happen with material which comes out of National, not only in training, but in program also. Often, it contains only the meat and the material which must be presented. The assumption is made that good trainers and good leaders will be able to put on the bells and whistles, make it fun, add the cotton candy and have the training be a great experience.

But when trainers say "Gee, it isn't in the National manual, so we can't do it" or, for example, say that "Scoutmaster Position Specific Skills doesn't call for a training Troop and Patrols, so we can't do that" it's a misinterpretation. Nothing is saying that you can't do that if the size of the course, local conditions, preference of the trainers, etc. judge that most appropriate. However, in many cases, local trainers were stating that they could only hold a training once a year or even once every two years because they wanted their full training Troop. That is another misinterpretation.

We need to be the ones to make it fun and most importantly, to ensure that what needs to be done at the local level to make real, effective training happens is occurring. Fun is hard to package from National, particularly at the Boy Scout level.

One suggestion I might make for an SM approaching a Pack. What can you do for them? Can you put on an exciting demonstration? Can your Scouts do something exciting.

Are there any boys who would like to be Den Chiefs, particularly Webelos Den Chiefs? Be ready to offer that service to the Cubmaster. But don't offer a boy who could be problems, offer someone who will be a good example of being a Boy Scout. Possibly an older Scout. Remember that Den Chief is a position of responsibility for advancement through Eagle Scout.

Hello Lisa,

I am stunned by one thing you wrote "Your DE will not allow you to have a list of Packs and Cubmasters."

So here are some suggestions:

1)Do you have a unit Commissioner? If so, ask your Commissioner to help you get those names.

2)If not,contact your Asst. District Commissioner and/or District Commissioner. Tell them that you are trying to recruit graduating Webelos Scouts for your Troop but that you don't have the names you need of the Packs.

3)Contact your DE again. You really don't need the names of all the Cubmasters and Packs in the District, just those in your area. Ask your DE politely for that information.

4)If that fails, consider asking the DE's boss, the Field Director, Director of Field Service or Scout Executive. Tell them that you want to recruit graduating Webelos Scouts but are having trouble getting the names and contacts for local Cub Scout Packs. Ask them for help.

5)Consider going to the District Cub Scout Roundtable. Ask for a moment to speak and tell them that you need some names and help. Possibly some of those Cub Scout packs are at the Roundtable and there you are.

6)Ask your District Chairman if your District has a Webelos to Scout Transition person. If so, get in touch with them.

These should get you started.

By the way, Webelos is always written with an S at the end whether singular or plural.

WE'll BE LOyal Scouts. And it is an adjective

So

Webelos Scouts

Webelos Books

Webelos Leader

Or, to add to the question of TwoCubDad, suppose that, at reregistration, a person changes jobs. All the ASMs become MCs and all the MCs become ASMs. Presumably that starts another 12 months.

You can't legislate goodness.

Plus, I hope that your Council Training Committee is going to go out of its way to make training available when and where people want it. If they play the common game of "We want to run a perfect training Troop and we won't run it without thirty participants" and combine that with "We won't reregister you if you don't complete training" it could be very interesting and possibly very ugly.

The bottom line is that Scout Leaders will be denied the opportunity to continue to serve. It will be very interesting to see if the result is better or poorer Scouting.

However, it IS possible that if the culture in the council becomes "of course you go to training. If fact, we feel so strongly about it that if you don't go to training, you are saying that you don't want to continue as a leader." then the result will be a lot more trained, good leaders.

Here is what I found in the 1920 issue of the Chief Scout Speaks:

"APRIL 24, 1920

THE ELEVENTH SCOUT LAW

How many laws are there in the Scout Law? Ten.

Well, if there were an eleventh law it would be this:

"A Scout is not a fool. He thinks a thing out for himself, sees both sides, and has the pluck to stick up for what he knows to be the right."

A fellow who is a backwoodsman is never a fool, because he has to look out for himself on all occasions; while a chap who lives in a town gets everything done for him. If he wants water he goes to the tap instead of having to notice where a valley runs down between hills and brings you to a stream.

If the town boy wants light he switches on the gas or electric light, which is made for him by someone else, instead of having to cut for himself a slither of pinewood or a roll or birch bark to make a torch.

A woodsman does not trip over the tent ropes every time he goes near a tent, he does not nick his toe with his axe when chopping wood, he does not capsize a canoe in getting into it-he is not a fool; he does things neatly and well, and he uses his wits. That is the Scouts way.

"It is a disgrace to a Scout if anybody sees a thing before he does." That we know from our book, "Scouting for Boys."

It is dangerous for us to try to overanalyze something written 84 years ago. However, I am very comfortable with "He thinks things out for himself, he sees both sides and has the pluck to stand up for what he knows to be right."

That is certainly consistent with what BW wrote. I don't think, however, that it is inconsistent with my interpretation.

NJCubScouter:

I believe there is a separate rule for "family outings." However, I believe you can't go halfway on that. In other words, if it is a family outing, every child that goes must have at least one parent or guardian going also. Normally, this alternative is used in Cub Scouting.

I suspect this alternative would be available for the Venturing but having a full complement of parents might not be thrilling for the members.

This does pose another interesting question of a sort which normally comes up in connection with two deep leadership. Let's say that a Venturing crew with female members goes on such a camping outing with one female leader present. No problem. The female leader gets a call from home and has to go home. Do the female Venturers have to go home too?

Now a bit of a variant. Is a Boy Scout Troop permitted to go camping with only female adult leaders? Or do the female adults make it a coed activity meaning that at least one male leader is needed. (I'm not talking about good ideas here, only about what is required.)

For the Boy Scout, absolutely. This is called showing the flag. A dear friend of mine was my 18 year old ASM when I was a very young SM. He had just moved into the area but told me about his previous Troop. He said that one time, they needed new members and he (and other boys) were invited to a Pack meeting to do recruiting. So he went in full Eagle Scout uniform, merit badge sash, medals, etc. and said "Join our Troop, work hard and you can look like me!" He got them all!

For the Cub Scout in the Boy Scout meeting: Probably. The only problem would come if some of the Boy Scouts (probably younger ones) would make fun of him for being a Cub Scout. You need to make sure that doesn't happen.

For you - For Cub Scout events or district/council events, absolutely. For Boy Scout events as a parent, probably not. Of course, if your are representing the Pack at a Boy Scout meeting, then in whatever uniform you choose.

Don't know how many kids you have, Eamonn, but in the blink of an eye, you will wish that you could go on skiing trips with your child. And then, except for very special circumstances, it will be too late.

Go. Enjoy. Go as a parent or as an interested adult. And be thankful that the temperature isn't zero as it is outside my front door or -20 as it is in my place in NH.

Scoutldr,

Your frosting suggestion is essentially what my wife did in the situation I mentioned. Actually, the man, at her insistence, had brought a tube of glucose gel which is probably a better idea as it is designed for this purpose. When she was unable to rouse him at 4AM, she slowly introduced it into his mouth and it took over an hour to achieve some consciousness.

She later learned that this is not a trivial matter and both she and the man in question were lucky. Introducing anything into the mouth of a person in this kind of shock can cause them to aspirate the material into the lungs and suffocate. However, one of the principles of wilderness emergency first aid is "You do what you need to do."

There also is an emergency glucogen injection which a diabetic can take to address shock emergencies. However, I understand that any one of these treatments should be immediately followed up by a trip to the emergency room.

As the other posters have said, there are many types of diabetes and many presentations of it. Don't feel that what others do or can do will be right for you. Talk to your physician, read, learn and experiment with your body. But experiment gently and gradually. And don't feel that your situation necessarily is static. Your situation can change with time also.

"Now for the why, these need to be addressed.

Lest say 2 scouts from a troop that does not follow the methods, grow up have a family and when there son or sons go into scouts, they had a great time in scouts (a great time does not mean they learned anything from the program) so they become leaders and run the program just like their SM or DL ran it."

Hello Dan,

This quote of yours raises such a good point and I want to address it a little. Your conclusion is good but I fear the way that you got there is very different from my experience.

When anyone with Scouting experience first becomes an adult leader, whether they were from a good unit or from a weak one, they do NOT run the unit the way that their unit was run as a youth. Rather, they run it the way that THEY THOUGHT IT WAS RUN, LOOKING THROUGH THE EYES OF A BOY and that is a very different thing.

This can be a real problem with Eagle Scouts becoming leaders. They are used to a boy run unit. They are also used to being the boys who run things. So they often keep running things.

Similarly, what do these people think the purpose of Scouting is? FUN!!! They're looking through the eyes of a boy.

That is, to me, why getting people to training quickly is so important. We need to give them the ADULT view on Scouting and show them all the backstage activities what were happening while they were being boys. They need to understand the goals of citizenship, character and fitness and of successful failures.

Otherwise, they'll continue to view it the way they did as boys and likely, as leaders, behave as superannuated boys. And also, just regard Scouting as another youth activity and nothing special.

I believe that George Will is close but not quite right on the mark.

I believe that there is a very clever, well calculated and well timed marketing program to coordinate, market and maximize the impact and revenue from the following:

1)Pete Rose's book

2) Pete Rose's interviews, public appearances, etc.

3) Pete Rose's potential admission to the baseball Hall of Fame

I believe that the "apology" is designed to maximize the revenue from 1 and 2 and, if possible, make 3 happen. I do believe that Mr. Rose is in almost complete denial.

I have heard it suggested on local radio that the book, apology, etc. were timed this year for a reason. Apparently Mr. Rose and his advisors believe that he will get a favorable HOF vote from the baseball writers. That is the group who votes on him for 2 more years. After that, it is the veteran's group including all the current members of the HOF. The thought is the veteran's group is much less likely to vote Mr. Rose in while he is still alive.

Message for Scouts?

1)Publicity doesn't mean character

2)Being the best there has ever been at something society thinks is really important and rewards greatly doesn't mean character and doesn't mean happiness

3)Possibly - you can run but you can't hide

Contrast Pete Rose with Dennis Eckersley who was recently voted in:

1) Very serious problems with alcoholism which he overcame. Lost family, etc.

2) Very good starting pitcher, then when he lost some of that skill, reinvented himself, learned a new skill and became, arguably, the best high pressure closing relief pitcher in the history of the game.

3) Very open, honest, enthusiastic and humble guy. A real pleasure to listen to.

A Scout is Friendly.

A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.

There are many "liberal" Scouts and Scout leaders.

May I respectfully suggest that our movement and our country are better served if we attempt to create an organization where all Scouts and Scouters are welcome and can enhance their citizenship, character and fitness and pursue life, liberty and happiness.

I'm not sure how it is Scoutlike to be essentially sitting around in a circle saying "Yup, liberals sure are condescending, aren't they?" There might even be some people who think that conservatives nowadays can be arrogant and self-righteous

BW, thank you for the information. I would like to read that myself, if you don't mind, to be sure that I understand it correctly, so is there a place you can refer me.

I went through something like the Pack A/Pack B situation in my first adult Scouting job. I was a new lieutenant on an AF Base. There had been one Troop and one Pack, each about 150-200 boys. About 3-4 years earlier, they had decided to split each into 4 Troops and 4 Packs. There also was a formal assignment of feeder Packs where Pack A would feed Troop C, Pack B would feed Troop D, etc. A boy could choose to go to another Troop, but this was the expected alternative.

About a year earlier, the Pack which fed my Troop went out of business. I knew none of this history when I agreed to serve.

I tried talking to some of the other SMs about rethinking the feeder Pack arrangement and the response reminded me of the old joke with the punch line "We had twins, mind died." There were plenty of Cub Scouts to go around, but they, needless to say, liked the arrangement and tough noogies for us. One Troop, in particular, was the strongest Troop and was fed by the strongest Pack. They were going to do everything they could to keep it that way.

It took a lot of pulling on the oar to turn matters around and get our Troop to stable situation. We had to do a great deal of marketing and recruiting since we really didn't have Webelos Scouts available. When I left, our Troop wasn't the best, but we were the second best and all of the Troops were very good. We did get an occasional Webelos Scout but not too many.

At one time, Scouting was strong enough that we could pick at each other. Now, Scouting is in a challenged situation so that we don't have the luxury of picking. The competition (or enemy if you will) is not each other, it is other youth activities, the tube, pro sports, etc.