NeilLup

I too agree with not making the criteria too specific for the awards. General criteria give the selection committee the freedom to do their job.

As an additional award, I know of Districts that allow each unit to name a "Scouter of the Year" who will be recognized at the District dinner. That honors the Scouter and helps build attendance. I also know that one of our Districts presents advancement awards for units who have done a good job in advancement.

I am reluctant to post credentials because I believe that a post should speak for itself not because of the person posting. However, maybe a few credentials here would help.

I took Wood Badge in 1970 in what was then Region 12, now Western Region in what was then the Scoutmaster's Course.

I staffed in 1971 in what was the first Leadership Development Course in Region 12. Staffed again in 1972, 1973, 1978, 1986, 1992, 1997, 2001, advisor in 2003 and am scheduled to be advisor in 2004. I directed in 1973 and 2001. This represents 2 Regions, 4 states and 9 councils. I have had the honor of being faculty on the WB Course Director's Development Conference of the Northeast Region several times and was, for a period of time, on the National WB Task Force. I mention this just to illustrate that I do have some personal knowledge of what WB was and how the changes have occurred.

It is very interesting to me that some of the exact same complaints about 21st Century WB are the ones that were made about Leadership Development WB when it was first introduced. In fact, back then, the complaints were much louder and the words "This is still a pretty good course" were not heard. Now, it is considered the "old" course and the "right" course and the "gold standard."

I won't get into some of the detailed reasons why WB was changed in the way that it was unless you wish. To summarize, evaluations suggested that participation in old WB did not particularly correlate with running an outstanding Troop. Plus putting on the old WB required a LOT of time and effort on the part of the staff so that in many councils there were WB cliques who did nothing but run WB. Plus, the management styles and philosophy of the old course was considered obsolete and not to fit the needs, characteristics and expectations of today's parents and young adults. Groups of people do change. The styles of Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" are different from the Baby Boomers and they are different from Gen X/Y.

There clearly is less emphasis on outdoor skills. It would be difficult to have a course for ALL leaders (Boy Scout, Cub Scout, Venturer, District and Council) that had as much outdoor skills as LD Wood Badge because the level of skills to be taught is so different in each group. Perhaps for Boy Scout leaders, that is a substantial deficiency that needs to be remedied with some other training. That is being discussed. If so, it likely won't be Wood Badge.

Undoubtedly, WB will change again and other trainings will be developed. That's why it's important to let your council and National know what you think is needed.

The intellectual property fee goes to the Blanchard organization to pay for license to use the Team Leadership Model, Team Development Model etc. plus a fee to the producers for showing the movie "October Sky."

There was a lesson learned there. When the new JLT comes out nationally, scheduled for summer of 2005, the material will be BSA developed and, I believe, there will be no intellectual property fee. At least, that is the plan now although it could change.

Wood Badge is run in essentially every country in the WOSM. We had a staff member on our last course (great guy) who had taken WB in the mid '80s in Norway. He was a teacher on one year exchange to the Boston school system from Norway and still an active Norwegian Scouter. He wore his blue Norwegian uniform througout the course. He said that the population of Norway is about the same as that of the greater Boston area (4.5 million) and there is one woman who runs Wood Badge for Norway and one staff. We were pleased to send him home with his third bead.

Some countries are big enough to develop their own course. Others use courses developed by larger countries. But each country decides what WB is for them and how it will be done. As an example, we understand that England recently eliminated 3 and 4 bead Wood Badges. Everybody wears two beads. But there is no world wide Wood Badge superstructure to my knowledge.

Hello Andrew,

Congratulations and thank you for taking this important job. You'll have a great time.

You have received some great advice from others. I'm going to suggest an idea now which I haven't seen done formally but I believe would make a big difference.

You have been to 21st Century Wood Badge. So you know about values, vision and mission. I would suggest that you think a bit about what your personal values are and then about what your vision for the Troop is. You have the vision of being a great Scoutmaster and having a great Troop. What does that mean? Not just nice words but reasonably specifically. Does it mean great advancement, lots of campouts, special trips, youth doing everything, winning camporees? You likely can't do all of those, particularly not at once.

They identify the mission to achieve this vision and the tasks involved. Will you run a Troop JLT and maybe get some boys to council JLT of even NJLIC? Do you need some ASMs or more committee members? Do you need more Troop equipment? Do you need more members? There are ways to get those.

Next, share the vision, the mission and the tasks. First with the PLC if you have one, ASMs, the old SM (if possible and appropriate) and the committee. Then with the parents and Scouts. Get them fired up and build their enthusiasm for the vision, the mission and the tasks.

Finally, work the plan. Every three months or so, review it with the committee and the PLC. At least once a year with the parents and Scouts and present an updated mission and tasks. The vision should remain pretty much the same.

If you remember the session on Values, Mission, Vision, you remember the statements of JFK, Martin Luther King and Margaret Thatcher. That's your job now. Set the vision. Set the mission. OUtline the tasks.

Do it quickly and what you do at the beginning is a unique opportunity.

My company works with this population. There are at least three identifiable groups.

The Deaf

The deaf

The hard of hearing

The Deaf (big D and that is how they are referred to) are largely individuals who have been deaf since birth and communicate largely by signing as with American Sign Language. There is a very strong Deaf culture.

The deaf are substantially individuals who are late deafened. They communicate significantly by lip reading and other simulated audio techniques.

The hard of hearing are individuals who have some residual hearing and communicate with assistive audio.

We have an Eagle Scout in our council who is deaf and also is legally blind. A truly neat kid. His Eagle project was to organize and put on a prom for the special needs youth of the Boston school system. He arranged for donations of tuxes, formals, flowers, food, the hall, etc.

So the young man is or isn't the first deaf Eagle Scout. So what? He is an Eagle Scout and he is deaf. That's pretty special.

Off the topic a little but to respond to TwoCubDad, I attended a meeting a little while ago where one of the attendees was a Cherokee from North Dakota. He said that the preferred term among individuals of that ethnic group is "Indian" or "American Indian." He said that, at this point, almost all of us are Native Americans.

He also said that the term "Indian" is a corruption of the Spanish "In Dios" or "With God" which was a term that Columbus used to describe the people he found meaning their spirituality, closeness to nature, love, etc. It was and should be regarded as a term of respect.

If you look at the most recent Cub Scout books, you will see the term "Indian" appearing again. It was a result of the comments by this gentleman.

Frankly, in new and weak units, it is not at all uncommon to have people "double up" on jobs. It is not according to the book and you are not registered but it certainly does happen.

Technically, you cannot earn the Den Leader award if you are CC. However, there is an award for Pack Committee people that you CAN earn which also gets you a square knot for recognition.

You should do what you wish, but a solid Pack needs a Committee Chairman. From the CC job, you certainly can support a den and even attend every den meeting as unofficial "assistant" Den Leader if you choose.

And I agree with Twocubdad about the Tiger Cub Den Leader Award. It should have been awarded. It is regrettable when sometimes people become so powerful in their "kingdoms" that they forget why we have the Training Awards -- to encourage training, performance, etc.

Excellent advice from CubsRgr8

I only believe one item is incorrect.

Fast Start training is indeed on the national web site, but it is not available through the national web site. You can only access it through a local council web site.

So go to your local council web site and look for Cub Scout Fast Start training. It likely is there.

If not, go to my local council web site www.bsaboston.org. We do link to the national site.

I know that it is there.

It may be reasonable to expect that the Pack leaders are better organized, etc. but likely, they are patents and volunteers just like you shoveling as fast as they can. To find out about training, etc. contact your local council office and talk with the District Executive for your district. Let him or her know what you want and what you need. Their job is to see that you get it. But if they don't know about you, there is nothing they can do.

If you don't know which is your local council, that information IS available on the national web site. There is a search for council by town, zip code, etc. function.

Dave, Laurie and other posters make some very good points. But here may be an interesting exercise to put us in the point of view of "them" rather than "us"

Imagine, for a moment, that you have been appointed to the BSA National Sex Education Task Force. Your mission and that of your group is to write a sex education training for all members of the BSA. But, here are some of your ground rules

1) It must be acceptable to ALL chartered partners within the BSA ranging from some very conservative churches to some secular groups to some rather liberal churches and other groups

2) It must be comfortable for the leaders, otherwise, they won't do it as they are volunteers

3) It must be acceptable to a very large fraction of parents of Scouts and unacceptable only to individuals who would be considered a radical fringe

4) It must survive scrutiny and publicity by the press including individuals who want to do their best to make the BSA look bad

5) There won't be much money for surveys, consultants, etc.

Think for a couple of minutes about that challenge and you'll see why the BSA ended up where it did. Sex and sex education is such a highly charged topic in the US and there is such a diversity of opinion that anything the BSA would say would either be Pablum or else would run afoul of some significant group within the BSA. Even stating that Scout leaders can discuss matters with Scouts can run afoul of some parents who think that they and only they are the ones who can give information to their children, particularly on sex.

It's different even in the Girl Scouts where churches, etc. have an advisory role but basically, GSUSA owns its units. But in the BSA, the units are OWNED by the sponsors. The sponsors are considered by the BSA to its customers.

So this is one where one of my more favorite Scouting sayings comes into play. "We are chartered to be leaders, not to be robots." We receive guidance from National, but in very, very, very few areas are those directives. Ultimately, the individual leader has to do what they think is best. And you won't always be correct.

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Hello Ev,

I respectfully suggest that it may be 20 years or more before be can say whether he was a role model or not.

If you mean that we should not encourage other boys to impregnate their girl friends, I agree, of course.

On the other hand, if we should encourage them that, finding themselves in a difficult situation, they handle it with responsibility, dignity and in accordance with the Scout Oath and Law, then he might be an excellent role model.

And WE are supposed to be role models too. One trend which I greatly deplore in society over the last 20-30 years is the "Throw the bums out!" attitude toward disagreement, difference in political or personal philosophy or lifestyle or mistakes in one's actions or character. WE are communicating to the other Scouts "You better be perfect. If you make a serious mistake, you're gone. Better conceal it, try to bury it or blame it on somebody else." I am much more comfortable if WE present the attitude "If you make a mistake, we'll try to help you do better the next time. If you want to and you really try."

I don't think that the Scouts in a Troop need to see an older boy expelled to know that they shouldn't have sex or that we disapprove of it.

Hello Ev,

I erased several flippant responses I wrote to your question before posting this.

The young woman is now impregnated. The young man will be a father. Nothing we can do will change those facts.

The young man now has an incredible challenge before him to "do his best." Many, many men and women fail in that challenge as parents. Perhaps we, in Scouting, can help him to meet that challenge if he is willing to accept the challenge and accept our help.

The alternative would appear to be a shunning or else a broken sword ceremony like at the beginning of the old TV program "Branded" where the boy is formally expelled from the Troop. It is hard for me to see how that is of benefit to anybody.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

Exceedingly interesting, exceedingly powerful thread.

I did see a post on another BSA mailing list a couple of years ago about whether it's appropriate for an 16 year old Eagle Scout's girlfriend and their son to attend his Eagle Scout Court of Honor.

In all the posts here, I don't think that I've read about conversations with the one person most involved -- the Scout himself.

Scouting, particularly Boy Scouting, is a kid's program. By becoming a father, this boy removes himself from the status of "kid" from many points of view. But not all. He still is an adolescent, still immature, and in particular need of help with citizenship, character and fitness over the next several days, months and years.

I would consider carefully what my community and sponsor would accept because it isn't fair to anyone to make an arrangement with the boy and then have external pressures force me to renege on it.

Then, I would hold a Scoutmaster's Conference with the boy. He is probably pretty scared, feeling very lonely, very ashamed and feeling that life is exceedingly unfair because he "got caught" while his friends that do the same thing (or at least brag about it) have no penalties.

I would talk with him about his changed situation and those things that he can now control and those that he cannot. I would talk about the Scout Oath and Law and his responsibilities, particularly now that there is a new life for which he will have lifelong responsibility.

I would discuss with him how he plans to discharge those responsibilities and try to lay out with him a reasonable plan to enable Scouting to be a meaningful influence in his life. I would talk with him about what being a leader now means to him, in his life and in that part which is Scouting. I would talk about his responsibilities in the Troop and what they now should be. He could, for example, be a Troop Instructor if that is appropriate.

It isn't exactly like a person convicted of DUI having to give talks, but I could see this young man being a powerful influence when older boys in the Troop begin to talk about sex and he quietly says "Believe me, you don't want to do that."

He has made a serious mistake and also, quite frankly, was unlucky. But if we ostracize him, we are sending a message to all concerned about how mistakes are handled. To me at least, that is strongly out of line with "A Scout is Friendly" and "A Scout is Kind."

We had a young woman who was a superb Wood Badge staff member who had become pregnant unmarried at 17. It was exceedingly powerful when, in the discussion of meaningful experiences, she discussed why it happened and what it meant to her.

Give the boy a chance and help in chart his own path which now will be very different from what he had expected. Don't be surprised if he needs to redo his plans a number of times as his life proceeds. I suspect that all of us who are parents were stunned at the change in our life and expections which becoming a parent represented.

Scouting is for all, not just for the perfect.

It may not be possible to make Quality District or Quality Council every year, but you can come close. We likely will miss Quality Council this year because of finance. We have lost over 10% of our council budget from foundations who say "We love you guys dearly, but because of our investments, we just don't have any money." We have been a Quality Council the last 5 or 6 straight years.

My Scout Exec and I joke about winning the "most improvement" award every other year.

Actually, there is a problem with the way that Quality Council membership figures are handled. Since the standards are based on the previous year, one is motivated to get just enough membership to meet the standard. Otherwise, if you have a great year this year, NEXT year, you have a much higher bar to jump over.

This is a VERY difficult year for membership nationally and in most councils so don't feel alone in being in a tough position.

Only once have I seen a problem in a co-ed activity in Exploring (which was the program predecessor of Venturing). It was at summer camp and involved a provisional Explorer post formed to accomodate any teenager who wanted to come to camp for a week.

The Exploring exec told me that he had to do "chastity patrols" every evening and have the "breakfast club" every morning.

However, this was NOT a standard Post (which would now be called a Crew.) It was a group thrown together just for this camp.

All the other coed Crews (or Explorer Posts) I have been involved with were outstanding and had no problems. Including the one where my daughter was a member.

Dave, thank you for keeping me from being the top man on the curve.

58

And I hope to get my 50 year veteran's card in 2005 and attend the 50th anniversary of my troop's founding in 2006.

Knots are fun and represent a physical skill that older youth can teach younger youth and then the younger youth can do and use.

I think the greatest knot teaching idea I heard was to take the teaching ropes and dye them with several different colors of food dye/ magic marker or whatever. That way, when doing a complicated knot, the individual strands are easily visible.

One of my favorite SM Minute stories which I use for adults (too heavy for youth) relates to something I saw on the Discovery channel.

The ancient Egyptians believed that a person did not die but still lived as long as their name was remembered.

In that spirit, Gil Buffery, my WB Scoutmaster is there whenever I am on Gilwell field.

My Scoutmaster, John Duley, is with me whenever I am at a Scout campout.

And my dad is there too. He wasn't much of a camper, but he put up with it for me.

In that same spirit, your Scout group is alive as long as you remember it and as long as you do your best to live the Oath and Law.

Thank you for sharing the story of your Scout group.

Hello Scouter659,

You're fortunate that in your time in Scouting you haven't seen this before. You're very fortunate that your Troop apparently operates as such a well oiled machine.

I will run the risk of having other posters call me an amateur psychologist.

You have a problem with this woman and the problem is called "agenda."

You indicated that she in a divorce situation. You indicated that former husband was an active Scouter, Wood Badge, trainer, etc. That right away can suggest that she will be finding fault with Scouting.

The risk is that she really isn't necessarily making complaints about things that have to do with Scouting. She rather is attempting to find a venue where she can exert some power and control and having her son involved may increase the "value" to her of having power and control in Scouting.

In person, over a suitable beverage, get me talking about the situation in a previous life where I had to handle a Scout leader accused of witchcraft. It was a messy divorce situation.

It was suggested that she may be right 10% of the time. ANYONE is right 10% of the time ( "XXXXX made the trains run on time.") You are neither required nor expected to be perfect. If you have reasonable rules reasonably enforced, then you should not be expected to cater to individualized parental complaints to be enforced on an ad hoc manner.

However, as I think about possible solutions, they are tough. If I am right, and this is a power agenda on her part, then you won't be able to satisfy her and all you will do is make things less fun for you and put sand in your gears. One possible answer would be to establish a formal procedure for parental complaints (absent safety matters, etc.) There would be one person to whom she would present complaints and that person would consider them, look into them and make a response. Her own personal ombudsman, if you wish. However, I'm not sure who would want that particular job.

The other thing to do is to invite her not to come so frequently. You risk losing her son this way, though. That's a tough choice, but remember that you are volunteers. You can't save every sick puppy and ultimately, if doing Scouting becomes a chore for your Troop leaders, everybody will suffer.

Talking to her might help, but if it is a power agenda item for her, then it is not a rational matter.

If I can come up with something else, I will post it. But don't let trying to satisfy this one person (which may, by definition, be impossible) make matters miserable for everybody else.

We veterans are pleased to be able to return the salute.

Hello OGE,

Feel free to question it to yourself. Feel free, if it were in your District or your Unit, to question the adults in the Crew and Troop. Feel free to suggest to the youth that he discuss the matter with his Crew Advisor.

But, in my opinion, it is improper for an adult Scouter to question a Scout or Venturer or suggest improper advancement using the impersonal mechanism of a message board when that youth's adult leaders are not present and/or participating. It is the adults in his unit who are empowered by their chartered organization and chartered by the BSA to carry out the Scouting program in THEIR UNIT. It is not the responsibility of any of us. We risk interfering with their unit and I am sure that none of us would appreciate anonymous questioning of the youth in our units.

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To my adult colleagues:

It is very appropriate for us to provide guidance to and even comment on and criticize the actions or opinions of each other.

However, concerning our 15 year old Venturer colleague, may I suggest that his Crew Advisors, district and council personnel are the appropriate persons to give him guidance on what is and what is not proper advancement procedure. We do not have all the facts and for us to suggest or even hint on an internet message board to a youth that his advancement has not been properly earned is, in my opinion, not appropriate for us as responsible adults to do. We perhaps can suggest that he review the matter with his Crew Advisors but, I believe, no more than that.

The program exists for youth and each of us has responsibility for seeing that the interests of each and every youth are protected. Even on an internet message board.

Cub Scout - Bear Our 12 den Pack went defunct then because it had a waiting list. The pastor of our parish supposedly said that if everybody who wanted to be a Cub Scout could not, then nobody would be a Cub Scout. I always wondered if we were getting the full story.

Boy Scout - Eagle with one Silver Palm. It was a bit tougher then because the tenure requirement was six months for each palm.

Current Scouting Job - Vice President for Operations for my Council -- plus a couple of other things

May I suggest that anyone who wants to suggest changes to a Merit Badge should write to the Boy Scout Division in Irving Texas and lay them out. I know of a couple of cases where a single letter from the field caused changes to a requirement or to a manual.

As far as the six foot "rule", I hope that a certain amount of common sense would prevail. If a prohibition is in the summer camp standards, then, as was said, it pertains to summer camp. The BSA knows how to make changes to G2SS and if it isn't there (yet), then I believe it is not a BSA wide rule. However, it could, of course, appear in an upcoming revision.

I was a loquacious Bob White from course R12-25 in 1970.

Our course director from our council's last course was a Raven. That name was fairly common from large courses in Western Region in the past.

Northeast Region still occasionally has a professional Wood Badge. Personally, I believe that a pro should take Wood Badge earlier in their career and it should be in their home council. However, I have had pros tell me that they are uncomfortable doing WB with volunteers, particularly if their outdoor skills are less than great. I can understand how a Scout Executive or other very senior professional would feel "snapshotted" every moment of a course in their home council. Personally, I think that such a person should go to a local council or cluster course but not at their home council. And it may prove less of a problem with 21st Century WB which places less of an emphasis on expertise in outdoor skills.

Exploring Wood Badge used the names of famous explorers as their patrol names -- Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Kit Carson, Jim Bridger.

We had a Woodbadger from Norway as a staff member on our most recent course and he was a Woodpecker. So he proudly sang "I used to be a pecker." And occasionally you will hear other names from other countries.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)