NeilLup

I'm going to risk some serious flames here. That's OK.

BP supposedly proposed an additional point of the Scout Law "A Scout is not a fool." By this, he meant that a Scout does not let his following of the Oath and Law become so mechanical and rigid that his actions become predictable and others can take advantage of him by putting him into a situation where his following of the Oath and Law will work to his disadvantage.

Or as I learned very long ago in a college course in group dynamics, talking about collaborative and competitive strategies, "Applying a competitive strategy in a collaborative situation is cynicism; applying a collaborative strategy in a competitive situation is naivete."

Pack A was naive.

I have carefully read the Oath and Law and nowhere does it say that being a tough competitor is precluded. At one time, the words "a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout" were included. But those people I know who have brothers not uncommonly fight and compete pretty hard with them.

It was clear that Pack B was targeting Pack A. It also appears that Pack A chose not to defend itself against the attack.

That there were two Packs with totally different programs is a good thing. It gives kids and parents a choice. Sadly for Pack A, it appears that the youth and parents have voted with their feet. And from your description, it would appear that Pack A certainly looks more like the kind of organization one would see in training films, Boy's Life, Scouting magazine, etc.

That takes a lot of work and a lot of organization. Is it possible that it was becoming too much work for the next generation of parents. Also, is it possible that Pack A's leadership was perceived as less welcoming, less accepting and more "You vill do it dis vay!"

Finally, comes the saying "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!" If the leadership of Pack B played these tricks, Pack A should have tolerated it precisely once. After that, no joint activities, no joint sign up night and an aggressive marketing program both to recruit new boys and parents and to encourage boys and parents who were dissatisfied with Pack B to consider Pack A. With the program of Pack A, I can see how they could have been made extremely exciting to boys and parents.

But, and forgive me for saying this, it sounds as if Pack A thought that their program was enough and they weren't hungry and welcoming. And Pack B was hungry. And it sounds as if they still are.

Ready now for incoming flaming.

When I introduce myself to a youth, it is with my first name and second name. Whatever they call me is fine provided they listen.

In virtually every case, calling a person with title and last name has been acceptable. However, in one case, I consistently called the Sr. VP of a major customer of mine Dr. XXXXXX for reasons of respect. He later gave me a good job reference but a negative comment was that I didn't call him by his first name and so I didn't consider myself to be a peer of his yet.

Hello OGE,

I am not diabetic, but I know at least 2 insulin dependent diabetics who do serious camping. (On our recent Wood Badge Course, there were 8 diabetics.)

The one who is more thorough tests himself frequently. He said that when he is working hard in the outdoors, he can reduce his insulin requirement by half.

The other guy takes whatever insulin he feels like and titrates his blood sugar by eating candy bars. (DON"T do that.) However, he is late '70s and has been diabetic for over 40 years so he has been doing it for quite a while. However, two years ago, he went into severe insulin shock on a backpack and my wife had to administer appropriate emergency backwoods first aid. She later was told that she likely prevented severe problems and possibly saved his life.

I am not a physician and am very reluctant in a forum like this to list the many things that I have read and heard about diabetes and camping. However, there was a superb issue of the Wilderness Medicine Newsletter concerning diabetes about two years ago. I would suggest that you obtain it and read it thoroughly. I would also suggest that you make a more than trivial google search on this topic. There is plenty of good information.

If you are careful and learn your metabolism and your limits, then your outdoor activities should not be particularly limited.

Laurie,

Thank you for the information about wearing the uniform. That certainly can be addressed for Committee members by saying that one doesn't need to. To me, that's an excuse but then, I'm a lifer.

And let me make sure I understand what you've said. If a non-registered person shows up for BSA training in your council, they are actually refused the opportunity to participate! Someone actually checks registration and verifies it before training? Which training? Do you require registration before Fast Start? To me, requiring registration before training is rather remarkable.

This thread goes in an interesting direction but to me, it is somewhat backwards.

Why would you NOT want to have adults registered as leaders?

Here are some of the reasons I have heard that an individual doesn't want to register. For me, none of these are particularly good reason.

1) They don't want to spend the $10. Come on now! If it's that big a thing, I am sure the unit can help fund it. I know that some units pay the registration fees for all adults but, quite frankly, if that becomes a problem for the unit, let the adults pay. Personally, I think having the adults pay is a good idea.

2) They don't want to fill out the form. Hmmm. What information on the form don't they want to give which they wouldn't let the unit have anyway? There are some persons who don't want to fill out the form because they don't want the screening involved. Likely no problem at all but that's precisely why the screening is done. I know that some people are reluctant to give their social security number but, again, if a person is going to be around kids, handle money, etc., bypassing the national screening system is a POOR idea.

3) They don't want to commit to spending that much time with the unit. Fair enough but the original post spoke about the secretary and treasurer not being registered. Come on, now.

4) The unit or the sponsor limit the number of people registered to control who runs the unit. Well, I guess this is one way to be. It's not my way and it's a great way to drive off potential help.

Are there other reasons? I would like to learn them.

As far as benefits to being registered:

1) The safety and security of passing the National screening. If I'm a parent, I like the idea that the leaders have been screened.

2) Scouting magazine

3) Formally being part of the organization

4) Receiving information from the local council

5) A clearer situation concerning being covered by BSA liability insurance and unit accident insurance. I understand that a parent attending an event on a one time basis is likely covered. However, if someone was considered to be the "secretary" of the committee and wasn't registered, then the insurance company might have a very convenient excuse to try to deny coverage. Rather than leave that opening, why not be registered. (Eisley, I don't believe that registration status changes whether BSA insurance is primary or secondary but I could be wrong.)

Am I missing something? Why is there even a debate?

Most sincere congratulations, FloridaScout.

If you're a good student, do apply for the National Eagle Scout Association Scholarships. The application form can be obtained from your council office.

Welcome to the brotherhood of Eagle Scouts.

Hello Eamonn,

Your story is wonderful. Thank you for sharing it. The reason that each of is us active in the BSA is that someone recruited us and invited us to join, either as adults, as boys (or girl Explorers) or both. You did the most difficult and most important job of a District Chairman or other District level leader. You identified and nurtured a future leader of the BSA. I hope you are now nominating her for the Silver Beaver.

Having read the other posts, may I suggest the following New Year's Resolution for all posters on the forum:

For each minute that we spend posting, we spend one minute out personally recruiting boys or adults to join the BSA.

I plan to try to follow that resolution myself and I don't mean attending meetings or filling out forms or the like. I mean doing the hard, dirty work of getting to know people, asking them to join and facing rejection (or elation) with their response.

As far as the "my" business, I am reminded of a fraternity brother of mine long ago who argued that one should not congratulate someone for receiving an honor which one has received oneself. It looks arrogant and self congratulating. I understood where he was coming from, but it is so contrary to common usage as to be weird.

And so:

The BSA is my organization.

The Scout Oath and Law are my guide in trying to live my life

The person who tries to take those away from me had better come well armed.

But I am thrilled to share them with anyone who would like to share.

Hello Eamonn,

My understanding is that checking the "yes" box for a felony, etc. is not an automatic disqualification. However, in a case like this, the District Chairman and Chartered Partner should make sure that the council knows the situation before the applications go in and is comfortable with it. That should involve any embarrassment to anyone concerned.

If some judgement about the persons's suitability needs to be made, it will be made in the local council, so the key person is the Scout Executive.

Hello Eamonn,

My understanding is that checking the "yes" box for a felony, etc. is not an automatic disqualification. However, in a case like this, the District Chairman and Chartered Partner should make sure that the council knows the situation before the applications go in and is comfortable with it. That should involve any embarrassment to anyone concerned.

If some judgement about the persons's suitability needs to be made, it will be made in the local council, so the key person is the Scout Executive.

Hello Dave,

Since you asked about the wearers of our former council patch, some didn't do much, but some were real leaders in the former council.

The more interesting problem came when we had to "mothball" one of our two summer ( we have two fully equipped summer camps five miles apart and over a 2 hour drive from the council). Several of our units say they will never go to our council camps again. However, they were the ones most loudly complaining about the one camp before it was mothballed.

Hello SPL T15

I hope you had a good holiday.

The "by the book" answer is that you should be wearing the council patch of your current registered council. However, as a practical matter, when councils merge, patches from the component councils are worn for years by some persons and not much is said about it. In our council, which was formed by merger in 1992, a couple of leaders still insist on wearing the old patches as a "protest" against the merger.

However, if you want to keep your old patches for value, the less worn they are, the more valuable.

As far as BORs for Webelos Scouts, I too disagree. That is not part of the Webelos advancement program. It is not age appropriate. When the WDL says that the boy has passed, he has. A second "review" even a mock review should not be done.

As far as the boy freezing up at a BOR, this might be addressed by knowing the characteristics and needs of the boys a bit better. In my opinion, the BOR should not necessarily be just the three random committee members who show up that night. In the case of this boy, I suspect that his nervousness and stuttering were known. Could his BOR have been comprised of three adults whom he knew well and was close to, particularly for his first BOR. Could it have been adults selected to be particularly easy for him to relate to? (maybe this was done and he still froze; I have seen this happen.)

I have presented them everywhere you can imagine.

Council dinner, district dinner, Council Board meeting, roundtable, Pack meeting, Troop meeting, OA lodge banquet, WB staff development, WB dinner etc. etc.

Probably the most unusual was at 3AM on the front lawn of an organization called the "Committee for the Future" in Washington DC. The recipient was an Air Force officer leaving early the next morning for an assignment in Europe.

As DSteele said, they can be presented more than once.

And as others have said, it is up to the recipient, but as with most things involving adults in Scouting, it should be that which most benefits the Scouts. So if it means something for a Troop, Pack or Crew to have their leader receive WB Beads at a Court of Honor, it's a great place. On the other hand, if it motivates other leaders to take WB to present them at roundtable, it's a great place. Or both.

I do have a little reluctance to suggest that they be presented only at a WB Dinner. The reason is that it doesn't do anything there for boys and doesn't do anything to encourage other leaders to go since only Wood Badgers are present. It only makes the recipient and the other Wood Badgers feel good and, personally, I have a problem with Scouting activities which are only feel good for adults with no other purpose.

Hello Laurie,

You have gotten some great suggestions and advice. May I, for a moment, take the "50,000 foot view."

If you aren't getting new members, I believe it is for one of two reasons (or a combination).

1)The potential Cub Scouts don't know about your Pack

2)They do know about your Pack but don't like, aren't interested, etc. in what you do.

Make sure that you have the best show in town both for Cub Scouts and for parents.

Make sure that your best show in town is broadly publicized. Use your local newspapers, cable TV, a newsletter, e-mail, a web page and plenty of word of mouth. Put together a one or two page flyer for parents and potential members which is fun and exciting. Refer them to your web page which contains up to date information on how to join and when your next meetings are.

When somebody does join, make it a big thing.

Make joining easy and leaving difficult.

You'll have a great Pack.

Hello LauraT7:

Boy Scout Division of the BSA put together some recruiting material last fall although perhaps not as comprehensive as the Cub Scout material you got.

Did you get the Scoutmaster's packet which came in the shape of a backpack. There was a CD included. It was intended for boy-to-boy recruiting. Make a copy and give it to each Troop member. It provides a mechanism for them to invite their friends. Plus they then can get the recruiter badge.

Hello ScouterPaul,

Sorry that it has taken me a little bit longer to respond.

How do merit badge mill Troops justify their program? I think the answer is that their "vision" of a program which produces citizenship, character and fitness is one where meeting the letter of the law requirements of merit badges is something which needs to be done as quickly and efficiently as possible. If anything, they would say that their youth have met all the physical and mental skills required by merit badges and this is probably true. They do not believe that there is much benefit to having the Scouts go through the effort of arranging counselor meetings, etc. Besides making those arrangements is such a pain for parents, plus there is the matter of rides, etc. It is so much more efficient to do everything at Troop meetings.

I have run into a similar problem in my own council. We run "Eagle Week" at our summer camp which causes me serious problems. However, when I ask about it, I get several comments:

1)The parents and Scouts want it (certainly true for the parents)

2) If we don't offer it, camps run by other councils in our area do offer it and the boys will just go there (painfully true)

I wouldn't have a problem if "Eagle Week" were a JLT program to improve the boys' leadership. But, needless to say, it is merit badge week where it commonly is possible to earn 5-7 merit badges in a week.

The posts from Eagledad and BobWhite suggest that the districts care only about numbers. In some cases, that is true, but a more serious problem is responding to the desires of the "consumers" the parents and Scouts. They want this "efficient" advancement and expect it to be delivered. From one point of view, we can only hope that while earning these badges, the Scout is exposed to some influences which improve their citizenship, character and fitness.

What to do about it? Tough question. If the Scout truly has not met the requirement, one can always counsel him and have him voluntarily agree to slow down his advancement. But it his Troop is pushing him and one is only coming in as a district level member of his Board of Review, it's very tough. One then can just try to have better training on advancement done by the district and slowly hope to turn things around.

Hello Sturgen,

There actually is a group doing what you purport to want to do. They call themselves the Baden Powell Scouts. They exist in some countries (Canada, UK) and are starting up in this US. You might want to consider checking them out.

NJCubScouter

You are correct. Those are theoretical. As I mentioned, the youngest Eagle of which I have personal knowledge earned the award at 12 years, 2 months.

Hello ScouterPaul,

molscouter is on the track of the way I was thinking but let's take it a bit further.

I know a person who completed the 5th grade at age 8. That would have made him eligible to join Boy Scouts and, with the sixteen months you mentioned, would have had over 2 years to earn the Eagle and still be 10.

Or to take it a step further, this person finished the third grade at age 7 and skipped the fourth grade. Arguably, that means that he could have begun work on his Arrow of Light at age 7, completed it early in age 8 (six months after "finishing" grade 4) and, technically, earned his Eagle at age 9.

Likely? no. Good idea? I certainly don't think so. But, with a Pack and Troop which run badge mills and parents who would want their son to be a trained seal and in the Guinness Book of World Records, possible.

Another scenario and one which is becoming more common, involves homeschooled youth. The parents "certify" them as completing the fifth grade at age 8 or 7. Policing this is very tricky as who is to tell a parent that their child has not done what they say?

So these things aren't likely and I don't know of any cases where it has been pushed to such a ludicrous extreme (although I do understand that the envelope has been pushed pretty far in some cases.) But they are, at least in theory, possible.

Hello Sturgen,

Woodbadge robot production, eh!!

It would sound to me as if some of the leaders in your Troop have an industrial strength chip on their shoulder. Don't knock Wood Badge personally if you haven't tried it

Your Troop sounds pretty neat. Great program,etc. One of the problems that the BSA has is producing a program which everybody can be reasonably successful with. I suspect that the level of involvement and commitment in you unit's leaders is very great relative to most leaders.

I do have some problem with your Boards of Review as outlined. It could become Lord of the Flies and I'm not sure how it is an experience that is generally transferrable to other aspects of life. You know that it is contrary to the BSA Advancement guidelines, I don't need to beat that to death.

The youngest Eagle Scout that I have personal knowledge of earned the award at 12 years, 2 months. When he aged out, he had earned 4 Silver Palms (I believe), Hornaday Award, statewide recognition for some other projects, was a deacon in his church, etc.

Should he have been forced to wait? Tough question. I, for one, am reluctant to suggest age as a defining requirement for Eagle Scout because you may exclude young men like this one. On the other hand, I am very tired of hearing "I got my Eagle at 13, or 12, or 11. (Yes, it is possible to get it at 11 or even 10 under current rules.) I would suggest that the trick is to ensure that young men meet the requirements on their own with their own initiative. If they do, then if they can finish at 12, fantastic!

The problem, of course, is most often the parents who push and use the Eagle as another way station toward college and other things.

Enjoy your Troop. It sounds most interesting.

Ev asks this question " So we are to blindly follow a program the BSA says works but has no actual proof that it does work?"

It might be worth looking at how new BSA programs are developed. In most cases, a local council, or in some cases, an individual unit or person develops the program. It comes to the attention of the National Council, is judged reasonable, and is published for use in the field.

In some cases, National identifies a need and develops a program. This can be done by National pros, National volunteers or some combination.

As far as PROVING that something works, I know a bit about that because of my line of work. Actually proving something sociological like this statistically is difficult, expensive and lengthy. And other factors need to be removed from the testing like Hawthorne effect (the fact that the very involvement in the experiment tends to improve performance). And even if you have proven that it works statistically, that doesn't mean that volunteers will voluntarily choose to use it.

So rather, the BSA chooses to promote programs nationwide which seem reasonable. Normally, they have been shown to work in limited trials to make sure there are no obvious bugs (like a pioneering project in program helps a few years ago that would not hold together.) If Scout leaders like them and use them, they are used and continue. If not, they fall by the wayside and quietly die. There normally is a very limited number of promoted programs at any given time because there is only a certain amount of communication which can occur with leaders. And except for information in Boy's Life and in Scouting magazine and other literature, the local council is a gatekeeper and can decide that any new program won't be used in their area.

As far as First Class emphasis, when the revision of advancement requirements was done in the late 1980s, there were surveys of a number of success Troops and Scoutmasters about what they did. First Class emphasis was one item suggested. The New Boy Patrol was another. So these ideas were "proven" anecdotally but nothing like a serious double blind statistical study.

Do you HAVE to use them? No. You don't HAVE to use advancement, or camping or boy leadership. Those are strongly suggested program options, but there are Troops that don't use them. Very, very things are mandated and you have great freedom to create the unit that produces citizenship, character and fitness in the way that you most think is appropriate. There are some strongly recommended approaches, but you are the leader.

Campfire Fairy,

From what you have written, I am sure that quite a few young men are very pleased that you were born a girl

My wife is certainly the camper in our family. Last summer, we did the Grand Canyon rim to river and back 3 months after her surgery to repair a fractured collarbone which didn't heal.

Hello Dan,

I in no way object to the stones you are throwing. That happened a LOOONG time ago.

I had met with the SPL previously to try to set up the meeting. I had told him about the exciting opportunities that being SPL represented and the great leadership challenge that he had and how much he could learn and do. We talked about the planning meeting and how to run it.

The next day, he phoned me to resign as SPL stating that he didn't want to put that much time into Scouting. His father also spoke with me stating that his son didn't want to put that much time into Scouting and he supported that decision. The boy transferred out of the Troop soon thereafter to a Troop where we was a Troop Instructor.

There were LOT of problems with that Troop and its culture. It took awhile to get things going OK, but we got there.

But the lesson I learned, and I stand by it, is that the book is great if you have a well organized Troop with Scouts that have some idea of what youth leadership is who want to be leaders. However, if you take a random group of boy, or even worse, a Troop that is used to having the adults do everything, building youth leadership is a multi-step process and there will likely be some missteps.

I don't believe that we do nearly as good a job of telling you how to get from a Troop with poor or no boy leadership to one with good boy leadership.

Ok, Andrew,

If you want an I did it and it went wrong story, here goes.

As a new Scoutmaster, one of the first things I wanted to do was have the annual planning conference to lay out our activities for the upcoming year. I thought that we would get the PLC together and develop the plan.

So I got a flip chart, set it up, sat the PLC down and said "OK, we have the year ahead of us, what would you guys like to do next year?"

Silence

"Surely you have some ideas?"

Silence

After a period of what seemed like root canal dentistry, there was a plan but I said most of the words and had most of the ideas.

The lesson for me was that boy leadership needed to come in stages. We needed to have a JLT and I had one after a bit. But we probably should have started out with a "pencil" plan with the PLC changing it as they wished. It would have involved quite a bit of training and working to get them able to respond productively to the question I asked.

Hello Ev,

Thank you for this clarification. I have learned that there are likely as many differentiations of deafness as there are individuals who are deaf.

Our company tries to help both individuals who use assisted audio and those who use signing.

I hope I did not offend you or either of your children.