NeilLup

Hello John, Not sure if what I will recommend here will work, but I think it is what I would try. Sit down with the Scout and with a calendar. Point out what the requirements are and by when he needs to do them. Then tell him that what happens next is up to him. Say that he wants you to bug him and remind him, you will be happy to do so and together, you will set the times for it. If he doesn't want you to, then you will not mention it again until and unless he brings it up. But point out to him that it is HIS Eagle. If he gets it, it is his. If he doesn't get it, it is his Eagle that he didn't get. And it is. It's not yours, it's not the Troops, it's not his parents' And advancement is only one of 8 methods of Scouting and the Eagle is only a part of advancement.

There are a couple of new Units of Supplemental Training posted on the BSA web site. www.scouting.org then Boy Scouting>>Adult Leaders>>Training>>Supplemental Training They are Mentoring and Supporting Scouts with ADD/ADHD. The ADD/ADHD unit is a lesson plan/course guide posted along with a PowerPoint presentation. You can obtain the lesson plan by clicking on "doc" under that section. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

Actually, dluders, depending upon how things are interpreted, I am pretty comfortable with your Troop policy. I believe that you said that your Troop policy is that a boy is "expected" to have a particular level of attendance. If that is regarded as a guideline and not as an ironclad rule, I think it could be pretty workable. If the boy makes that standard, he has some concrete data when he goes to the Board of Review. If not, it's not an automatic rejection, but gives the SM in the SM Conference and the Board of Review a concrete place to start saying "This is our expectation. You didn't meet this expectation. Tell us why. Tell us why, in spite of not meeting the expectation, you should still be advanced." Then the ball is in the boy's court and if it is possible for him to answer that question and be advanced, it's an interesting approach.

You have gotten good advice. However, regardless of what all the posters say, your wise action as a BSA leader is to follow the official BSA literature. May I suggest that you obtain a copy of a manual which, I believe, is called "Advancement Policies and Procedures" or else the manual for District Committees. Both speak to advancement, particularly as it relates to Eagle Scout advancement. I believe that the manual explicitly states that percentage requirements for being active and for position of responsibility are not proper. However, don't take our word for it. Look it up yourself in the official literature. Among other things, this gives you powerful ammunition in dealing with your Troop Committee in changing policy. I would also comment that I can I can understand your reluctance to deal with the boy's father. However, that's why you get the big bucks You should counsel with your Troop Committee, etc. and have them by your side, but if something needs to be done, it needs to be done. Sometimes "A Scout is Brave" is the toughest point of the law for Scout leaders dealing with parents. We wish you well. Most of us have been there at one time or another.

I'm tempted to add my "ain't it awful" to the chorus. I have observed that many parents and families have a TV set mentality about Scouting. Meaning that, just like turning on a TV set, they want there to be an outstanding activity well planned an carried out if they plan to show up. However, just like a watching a TV set: 1) They want nothing to do with the planning or organizing 2) They want to make no commitments to participation or non-participation 3) If something better comes up at the last minute, they want to be able to do that something better 4) If the weather is bad (or good) they want to be able to decide to do another weather dependent activity at the last minute 5) They expect to be able to complain loudly and long if the quality of an activity is not what they want 6) They want to pay at the last minute 7) They even feel free to leave (change the channel) when their son's activities are finished As far as your crew activity, you may or may not teach the lesson that you want at this early stage if you cancel the activity. It depends on how personally they identify with the Crew, it's leadership and it's activities If they identify strongly, then cancelling the activity will teach a lesson. But if they don't, they they'll only say to themselves and to each other "See. We told you that the Crew and Venturing don't work. They cancel their activities and are poorly planned." The question then is whether you are cancelling THEIR activity or YOUR activity which they may attend if they don't have something better to do. And this pertains to parents as well as to the youth. This isn't saying that you shouldn't cancel the activity to avoid being taken advantage of yourself. But unless you hold a pretty serious reflection, you may not be having the learning experience that you desire.

Hello dluders, Per your post, if the Scout made Life in February of 2005 and was active in the Troop until October of 2005, he has met the "active" requirement for Eagle Scout. If he held some position of responsibility during that period, he has met that requirement for Eagle Scout also. Nowhere in the requirements does it say or imply that the 6 month active service must be immediatly prior to his Eagle Board of review. If he is nearly 15 in April of 2007, then he made Life Scout at TWELVE! That's pretty doggone active. Someone was really pushing -- the Scout, his parents, your unit or some combination. Is that someone now pushing him to do other things for high school, college, etc. (Do I hear the gentle whoop, whoop of the blades of helicopter parents in the background?) As was said, if he is attending 1/3 of the meetings, either he likes something about Scouting or else he is doing just enough to not be considered dropped out. What to do? I believe that National policy is that IF you reject the boy based on some percentage attendance at meetings or campouts, particularly after he did meet the requirements while a Life Scout and IF the boy would appeal, the appeal would be upheld. A couple of ifs there. Appeals are rare. Do you know what the boy is doing and if it truly precludes him being more active? I would imagine that if, for example, he were a national calibre concert pianist and had concerts and recitals every weekend, this would be considered an appropriate use of his time and not attending campouts would not be a problem. You certainly can and should have a Scoutmaster's Conference with him. You can discuss with him the need to display Scout Spirit and state that if he attends no campouts and few meetings, it is difficult for him to show Scout Spirit in a way that the Troop can notice. You can have a frank discussion of why he is not attending more and see if some resolution can be worked out. The Scout himself can always say that he needs to do more and not apply for the rank. But if the Troop takes this action precipitously, the Scout can appeal. If so, the worst thing that happens is that the boy is passed by the appeal group. That does not mean that the Troop's policies would not remain in place until the next boy appeals. You need to create the policies that you think are appropriate for your Troop and if an appeal happens, it happens. Another important principle is "no surprises." It would be highly inappropriate for the this Scout to be turned down at his SM conference or Board of Review with no prior warning that he is not meeting expectations. You need to talk with him and perhaps with his parents about what those expectations are. They then can do what they consider proper which could mean complying with your expectations, dropping out, finding another Troop or appealing.

Not to be too confusing, but there is no requirement at all that a boy be 10.5 to earn the AOL If he completes the 4th grade at 9, he can start on AOL then and finish at 9.5. I know a person who finished the 5th grade at 8, so it can happen. Not at all a good idea to have boys going that fast, but it does meet the letter of the requirement. The other challenge has been the homeschooling parent who says "Well I certify that my 7 year old has finished the 5th grade, so of course he can be a Boy Scout." It is grade skipping and homeschooling that caused the firm age 10 requirement to be instituted. The most important thing is "What's best for the Scout?" That can get very different answers from a parent and from an experienced Scout leader. To answer your original question, by and large 11 year old boys do just fine in Boy Scouting. I would encourage those boys to become Boy Scouts.

You've received some great advice. I do have a couple of thoughts: 1) The tenure and leadership requirements need to be met while the boy is a Life Scout. They do NOT need to be met in the time immediately before he meets the Board of Review. If he met those requirements while he is a Life Scout, then the requirements are met even if he was less active for a substantial period of time. 2) It is his job to convince you and the Board of Review that he has met the Scout Spirit requirements. It is not your job to prove that he didn't meet them. It is very appropriate for you to outline for him what he needs to do to meet the Scout Spirit requirements the "easy way." However, I believe that you then need to tell him that if he chooses not to be active in the unit and display his Scout Spirit in that way, then he will need to convince you and the Board of Review that he is displaying Eagle Scout level Scout Spirit elsewhere in his life. As with all such conversations, it is important that there be no surprises and you are well on your way to that having no surprises. If you and the Scout reach an agreement on what is expected, I would suggest that you (or he) write it up and you both sign it. If you don't reach an agreement, I would suggest that you and the Committee Chairman write up what you told him about expectations and hand or send him a copy with a copy to his parents. He doesn't get a free pass on the requirements. But he should be able to chart his own path in how to meet the requirements.

Hello Treasuremom, For youth who are legitimately "special needs" or have other disabilities, the age requirments can be completely waived. There are eople who are Cub Scouts who are in their 30s and 40s because that is their mental age. Similarly, there are people who earn the Eagle Scout in their 40s and 50s because their mental age puts them in the Boy Scout range. This is a very formal procedure and tequires participation of the unit, the chartered organization and the local council. But it is possible. Contact your local council.

Hello Tucker, First a question to consider. Why did the Scout do this? Does he feel tremendous pressure? Is he overscheduled? Are there very substantial parental expectations? Is this out of character for him, or does he normally cut corners? None of these necessarily excuse his actions, but they may help explain them. If he was responding to pressure that he felt insurmountable, then hammering him might only make things worse. He needs help to address the pressure. But if he routinely cuts corners, that's another matter. Cheating in schools is becoming more and more common. One of the reasons is a very high level of perceived pressure to succeed. If, for example, you simply bring matters to his parents and it is their pressure that caused it, it may only increase the pressure on him. As was said, depending upon how long he has before he turns 18, it can be desirable to enable him to slow down. What does he think is appropriate? How does he think he can make things right? If he is only trying to get his Eagle as fast as possible, he may feel that his problem was getting caught rather than fudging the signature. So, to summarize my thought, I believe our objective is to end up with a Scout who is able and willing to accept a lower level of objective accomplishment in order to continue to be trustworthy even in the face of extreme pressure and expectations to perform. I don't think it is possible remotely to decide how best that should be done. You need to decide that and you run the risk of being wrong. But your prime considerations should be the boy and the other boys in the Troop.

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/ I believe that is the link your referring to. I stumbled upon this about a month ago, when I was looking for boy scout geocaching resources You're correct. However, I noticed that some new units have been added. That happens every so often.

There are a couple of new units of supplemental training that are on the National web site. Go to www.scouting.org Then hit the icon for Boy Scouting >>adult leaders>> training and support>>supplemental training The new units are: 1) Recruiting Quality Training Staff 2) Promotional power point presentation "National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience (NAYLE)" Best wishes, Neil Lupton

I understand that this week, every Scoutmaster in the USA will be personally mailed a copy of the 2006 Recruiting and Retention Tools packet. In addition to the recruiter's patch and the recruiting video, there is also a DVD with each of the Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class skills videos now available on the National web site. One can play them from the DVD, make copies of the DVD to give out, download individual skill items to an iPod for podcasting, etc. This should be a powerful new tool for skill instruction, and by that, for improving program and enjoyment of Scouting by youth and adults in Boy Scouting. And that should give better membership and better retention. Copies of this should also very soon be available at local council offices. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

Hello Aquila, I directly solicited money from one of the Troops in our council. This very large Troop has an annual budget well over $50,000 and has a "war chest" in the bank over $20,000. They do not do popcorn and refuse to attend our council's camp instead going to and supporting the camp of a neighboring council. They "generously" contributed $200 to FOS and refused to allow us to contact parents directly. I suggested that they were getting a lot more than that from the council and that either they should permit and support a FOS solicitation among all the parents in their unit, or else should attend our council's summer camp or else should contribute generously from their war chest.

Hello MaScout, I don't have a copy of the Application for MB form here and apparently it is not downloadable, so I am sure that the form is exactly as you have described it. However, the SM signing the "applicant's record" is, as I would understand matters, essentially a receipt. It allows the Scout to prove that he has turned the form in. However, it does not represent an after-the-fact approval or confirmation by the SM. I am 100% certain that if a Scoutmaster refused to sign a card which the SM had previously approved and which was signed by a registered counselor, the Scout could appeal to the district (wouldn't needing to do THAT be a pain) and the merit badge would be awarded. If you disagree (or agree) with any of the rest of my post, please do say why.

An interesting thread. First, MaScout and Lenape, I believe that what you have said is inaccurate. The SM must approve the blue card BEFORE the Scout goes for counseling stating that the Scout is ready to go to the counselor. After that, if the Scout is approved by a registered counselor, the SM and Troop have no prerogative to stop the awarding of the Merit Badge. There is no signing of the card AFTER the badge is awarded. If the Troop believes that a particular counselor has done a poor job, they can tell the district and the person can be removed from MB Counselor status. But that doesn't change the approvals that they have already given. Second, the SM and CC can decline to sign the application. As ScoutLdr has said, the Scout can then contact the district and request a Board of Review. This board should definitely take into account the refusal of the SM and/or CC to sign, but rejection of the Scout is not automatic. I believe that I would contact the District Advancement Chairman and discuss the situation. I would find out why they had scheduled a board and ask that a Troop representative be present. Then, I would see that a detailed letter is written outlining the the pluses and minuses of the Scout and his travelling of the Eagle trail. In particular, I would outline in detail places where the Scout's performance has been been judged deficient, he has been given courses of action and milestones to prove himself and he has failed to do it. The principle is "no surprises" and you need to show that the Scout knew long in advance that he was not meeting the standard, knew what he needed to do and didn't do it. I might suggest that you end the letter, if you wish, with a recommendation to the Board of what further action the Scout would need to do to be considered worthy of being an Eagle Scout. In the letter, acknowledge that the Scout will be travelling until he is 18 and this may mean that he will not earn the Eagle. However, in light of his performance, you do not think that it is fair to anyone, including him, for him to be awarded the Eagle at this time. Be sure that everything in the letter is accurate, fair and objective and opinions are stated as opinions. (I hate to say it, but lawyers do get involved when pushy parents and "piece of work" Scouts are involved.) Talk to the District Advancement person about the letter. I would suggest sending the letter to the Board of Review with a copy to the Scout far enough advance for him to prepare a response. The letter either can be signed by the SM and whomever else wishes, or there can be several letters documenting information. You then have done everything you can. If the boy still is approved, as others have mentioned, he likely would have a lightly attended Court of Honor.

Hello frznpch, I regret the mess that you are going through. I have seen a few of those in the 50+ years that I have been in this "jolly game." We have a saying in Scout training "Send a monkey to training and you'll get back a trained monkey." There's a corollary to that "Put a Scout uniform on a jerk, and you'll get a jerk in a Scout uniform." Just because adults (or youth) are involved in Scouting doesn't change their basic personalities. I would like to think that we do a lot better than average but we are far from perfect. You have said that you are disappointed with the Scout hierarchy. Referring things to the chartered organization IS the Scout hierarchy. The Chartered Organization owns the unit, not the BSA. The DE's job is to to keep the old unit happy, keep you happy, keep the chartered organization happy, etc. The idea of a mediator is excellent. A good Commissioner should be able to do that job. Is your Unit Commissioner, if you have a good one, or District Commissioner aware of this problem. DEs can be pretty junior and inexperienced. But is sounds as if the formation of the new troop occured rather acrimoniously and there is something of a "over my dead body" attitude about the boys going to camp. If the leaders of the old unit consider formation of the new unit to be a personal attack or personal insult or repudiation of them as people, it can be very tough. As a final thought, if you need a camp with space, my council's camp has space. We'd be happy to have you.

The Gray Areas document was written, as Kudu's site outlines, by Doug Fullman who is Assoc. Regional Director for Program of Northeast Region. The Gray Areas document is found, among other places, in the Wood Badge Staff Guide which is an official, approved, reviewed, National BSA document. The information is presented as training which is to be given to leaders at every level of the BSA. Eagle Foot, if you believe you were blown off by the camp staff, I might be inclined to have a friendly conversation with my Scout Executive (not District Executive; the top guy.) I would frame it in terms of a question saying "I understand that in Scouting, we are trying to be very careful in Gray Areas and in not doing anything in campfires, skits, etc. which can be denigrating to anyone. At campfire at summer camp as such and such a time, there were some skits which seemed to be way over the line on Gray Areas and the skits were run by staff. When I mentioned this to the staff, they really didn't pay any attention. Am I the one who is wrong here and worrying too much, or am I right about these Gray Areas? If I am right, could you please mention this to them as they probably will pay attention to you." Give the person who has responsibility the chance to do something about it. I suspect that the SE has no idea that this is happening. But perhaps I am wrong.

Hello, When I was SM for a Troop on an AF base, we dealt with this many, many times. I presume that the boy came with a transfer form which was approved (signed) by his outgoing council. If so, as I understand matters, that is sufficient documentation for all advancement listed on the transfer form. The procedure was that the unit would fill out the form, send it to the council office, they would sign it and then the Scout would take the original with him and our unit would keep a copy. If he didn't have a transfer form, or if the transfer form wasn't approved by the local council office, then things could get a bit trickier. I'm not sure how picky your local council office is for Eagle Scout, but if they want to be ultra picky, they could decline to accept advancement based just on having cards for merit badges, etc. After all, some councils just hand out blank merit badge cards and the unit fills them out. So if a boy or the boy's parents go down to the Scout Shop, get a few merit badge cards and fill one out for the Goat Roping merit badge, then what's to say that he really earned it. The answer is, or at least is supposed to be, that when an Eagle application goes in, the local council checks the official advancement form filled out by the unit for each merit badge to make sure that it actually was earned. If they have records on-line, so much the better. Things were entered there based on official advancement forms. That's also supposed to be what happens when a transfer form is approved. The council goes through the advancement records and verifies that everything listed on the form is accurate and has been sent in on official advancement reports. So when you get an approved transfer form, that has supposedly been checked against advancement records. The transfer form also confirms his current registration What to do if you don't have an approved transfer form? You can check with your local council, but one alternative might be to have the Scout fill out the transfer form and send it to his former council with the explanation that he is going for Eagle and needs to have his advancement there confirmed. Maybe your local council has another suggestion.

FScouter makes some good points about not being hidebound by precedent, but I respectfully disagree. One of the areas for which we strive is fairness which, to me in this case, means that all Scouts are considered equally and on their merits without consideration of family, being liked or not liked, or other such factors. The opposite of fairness to me is arbitrariness or randomness. I would be EXTREMELY troubled if a Scout wanting help in the funding of his Eagle project could not go to his Troop committee and say "You gave help to Scout XX. Here is my case which is equally good. Will you help me please" and the Committee didn't feel obligation to do their best to help all equally. The case made for the Scout mentioned seemed, as described, weak. The boy seemed not to have planned costs well, he allowed scale creep to happen, he failed in his planned fund raising and there was ugly parental pressure. If the Committee were to deny a second Scout, what reason could they give (other than we don't have the money now) except the coin came up tails or else your parents didn't complain the way that his parents did. I am very surprised by the dismissal of precedent (and by implication to me, of equity and fairness.)

There would seem to be two factors at play here: 1) The fact that the Scout needs $1000 or so for his project and is asking the Troop for it 2) The fact that your Troop seems to have problems with the Scout's family and they have problems with you I might ask if the Scout and his family were the Troop's and the Troop leaders' strongest supporters, and were always there pitching in, would you even ask about the $1000 contribution? Having said that, to me, one element of Eagle Scout project planning is being realistic about funds and about raising funds. If the Scout can't get the funds, then he should think about a different project. It may be appropriate for you to kick in funds if you have the money but if so, it should be the last $200, not the first $200. Do you have enough money to pay this if every Eagle candidate asked for it (and they will now.) How do you feel about Tenderfoot Scouts raising money for the Troop and having it go for someone elses Eagle Scout project? To me, this should have been asked in advance before the Eagle project started and the Committee should have considered things then. And the boy's mother should have been asked to leave or should have absented herself when the discussion was occurring.

Most sincere congratulations to you both. Well done!

I must disagree with Scoutldr. I believe that the advancement procedures (I don't have the book here) say that if the SM or CC refuse to to sign the Eagle application, the Scout can still insist upon a Board of Review. The board would, of course, want to know everything imaginable about why the SM/CC refused to sign. This to keep the SM from blocking a boy's advancement and to ensure that a personality conflict between the SM and the Scout or a spat between the SM's family and the Scout's family does not permanently ruin a boy's Scouting experience. Please check it out in the advancement rules and regulations book.

Congratulations to you, Eamonn. And congratulations to your son too. The gift will be yours also. I believe that one can take until 21 to reach Quartermaster in the Sea Scouts, so there is still some additional time. Who knows, maybe he will try for the Silver Award also and go for the trifecta. Happy father's day. The only father happier than the one who has an Eagle Scout son is the father whose daughter is dating an Eagle Scout

Check out the units of supplemental training at www.scouting.org. Go to Boy Scouting>>adult leadera>>training and support>>supplemental training There is a unit on Scoutmaster's Conference and one on Board of Review.