NeilLup

Hello Packsaddle, I believe that ketchome's original post said: At a recent mulit-unit outing the boy in question is supposed to have shoplifted an item and was caught. He wrote a letter of apology and the matter was "hushed." I have also heard but not confirmed that at a previous scout camp a similar situation occured. I am working on confirmation. The boy is 18" Key word there being SUPPOSED. I interpret this to mean that ketchome has no definitive information. Perhaps I am wrong. He is in a position of dealing with a situation where there are rumors and matters were "hushed." Absent a copy of the letter of apology or some other form of confirmation, I would say that he needs to deal with rumor and not with fact.

Agree, packsaddle, but of what do you inform the BOR? 1) The boy has been "caught" shoplifting? You better have photos, a witness or some other such incontrovertible evidence/data 2) There is a rumor that the Scout has been caught shoplifting? I'm not sure how I would react to that if I were the board? That's why I suggested my third option 3a) There is a rumor that the Scout has been caught shoplifting. We looked into it and to our satisfaction, it is only a rumor and appears not to be true OR 3b) There is a rumor that the Scout has been caught shoplifting. We looked into it and we are not able to confirm or deny the rumor to our satisfaction. The Scout and his family (did/did not) cooperate with us in attempting to address this rumor. What exactly would you say to the BOR? Neil

I'm sorry, Ed, but stating that if he was caught, that is confirmed is congruent with "guilty until proven innocent." That is not the American jurisprudence system. However, there is a catch 22 with the juvenile justice system in that the records needed to prove his innocence are sealed. However, we aren't talking about a legal procedure, we are talking about a great honor -- Eagle Scout. The Scout needs to prove that he is worthy, not the other way around and the committee can well take the position that it is the Scout's obligation to rebut reasonably reliable innuendo and information. So here is a possibility. Not necessarily a good possibility, but a possibility. Tell the Scout about the rumors and indicate that you would like to rebut those rumors once and for all. Ask him and his parents to waive the confidentiality of his juvenile records to document and prove that there are no shoplifting arrests or convictions on his record. If need be, tell him that the records will be reviewed by an confidential objective third party like an attorney who will simply state one of two things -- there is no indication that the reports are reliable or it cannot be stated that there is no indication that the reports are reliable. Tell the Scout that he can, of course, decline to provide this confirmation of the unreliability of the rumors. However, in that case, the SM and Board of Review will have to assume that there is some reliability to the rumors and will take that into account. If he or his parents make some noise like "innocent until proven guilty" you state that this isn't a legal procedure, it is a review for the great honor of being an Eagle Scout. For everybody's benefit, you wish to be able to eliminate any rumors clearly and cleanly. The BOR is forced to at least consider reports in the community and wants to do what can be done to address reports and other negative information. If they have some other way to address it, that's great, but it needs to be pro-active confirmation. Just stating that there is no confirmed negative information is not sufficient.

Your question about the new boys is an exceedingly good one. We "know" (at least extremely strongly suspect) that boys who go to summer camp their first year are much more likely to remain with Scouting and to remain with the Troop. If those new boys get priced out of going to summer camp, your Troop may pay the price in a year or two if many members that year group of Scouts are no longer around. How best to handle it is an interesting question. This is one of the problems that can come from allowing the older boys to decide where the Troop will go for summer camp to satisfy their desires and not take into account the needs of younger boys. Or from having the adults to decide to do something "more exciting." I can only suggest that you not allow your Troop to be too fixated on "fairness" when it comes to who earned the money. The older boys/parents decided that they wanted this exciting trip. It is appropriate that they pay or earn full price for it. It is not appropriate to have the younger boys and new boys excluded from summer camp because they didn't participate in the many fundraisers which were held before they could join or to pressure them to join before they are ready to participate in the fundraisers. I would suggest that the cost which each new Scout pays should be the cost of your local council's summer camp. The rest of the cost should be, in some way, covered by the Troop.

Hello, Experience is that telling a Scout at his last SM conference that he is not Eagle Scout material or having that happen at the Board of Review may well produce a situation where an appeal, if made, would be upheld. If he meets all the requirements in the next 6 months (pretty unlikely from the way you have described him) then things could become very difficult if the effort is made to reject him at the SM Conference or BOR. Actually, if you look at the wording of the requirements, one does not need to "pass" the SM Conference, simply participate in one. And it doesn't need to be the last requirement passed, simply some time as a Life Scout. One thing you can do is make sure that everything he does from here on out is do everyting by himself. No help from the Troop Committee, etc. Or refuse to let him have a leadership position or stand for election. But if he did get his tail in gear and get all the requirements done, it would be very, very difficult for a BOR to turn him down based on one incident involving his Life Scout Board of Review.

With deep respect, Firekat, methinks you do protest a bit too much. The James E. West knot is one knot. If someone "buys" that knot and wears it only, they will have one knot. If some newbie decides that someone is knowledgeable because of one knot that would be exceedingly unusual. Or let's say that the person has four "earned" knots and then receives the James E. West, they will have five. If a newbie would decide that a person deserves little respect because of four knots but measurably more respect because of five, that would be very unusual. And this would need to be a real newbie because someone with some experience would know what the James E. West knot is and would give it appropriate consideration. Was there some circumstance where you believed that you should have gotten respect and didn't relative to someone who has the James E. West square knot? If so, I deeply regret that but I don't think that it can be blamed on the James E. West square knot.

Hello troutmaster, I staffed Wood Badge Course R12-43 at Tahquitz in 1972. We had two previous scheduled camps for the course closed due to fire danger. Very pretty camp.

jmwalston, I believe it is New Mexico colors, probably yellow background with red knot. Mr. Boyce, I hear what you are saying. However (and I apologize for the Latin), I believe that the attorneys have a saying "post hoc, ergo propter hoc." The English translation can be correlation implies causation. It is logically incorrect. There are people who lord it over others. They have the biggest, shiniest toys, the nicest clothes, they make certain you know that they have lots of money and power, etc. (It can be exceedingly interesting to hear such people giving training on the topic of "Servant Leadership.") If they don't have square knots, they will use some other means to show their status and is Scouting doesn't allow them to show it, they will find some other organization that does. I have yet to see a person who points to their chest and says "Look, I have the James E. West square knot, aren't I special!!!" I do know of a number of people who have the James E. West knot who had it funded by others and who wear it to communicate that they believe that supporting the council financially is important. In short, I'm not sure that the problem, if there is one, is with the wearer or their actions relating to the knot. The problem, if there is one, is with the people who don't have the knot, see it, and feel in some way inferior because they can't afford it. Yet these people have no problem, for example, in going to Philmont. Let's face it, having a 150,000 acre honking big place named for yourself is a lot more in your face than a square knot. Yet that's how things are in the big giving charitable arena. If you want to get the big bucks, and if we want Scouting to continue as it has, we need the big bucks, you need to do what big buck givers want. And very, very often, they want recognition and legacy. Sometimes, it is gracious, sometimes less so but the result is, presumably, better citizenship, character and fitness for the next generations of youth.

I was young and foolish back then and had just turned 24 when I became a SM in 1969. Now, I'm just foolish.

Hello GKlose, May I suggest that some mentoring, coaching, even nursemaiding is appropriate in encouraging and helping a Scout become a good Scout Hiker and Camper i.e. achieve First Class rank. After that, let them be on their own.

I guess I'm a bit confused. The various knots look different. They can't be confused. There's no way that a Silver Beaver can be confused with a James E. West knot. So what harm does it do if someone gives $1000 to the council endowment and gets a James E. West knot? They wear the knot. Does that in some way hurt you or negatively impact your ability to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth? If you qualify for a knot and don't want to wear it, then don't. If someone else qualifies and chooses to wear it, how is that a problem and how does that hurt you? If it motivates someone to spend money that they have supporting Scouting and getting knots for doing it, why is that bad? Who is hurt? What points of the Oath and Law are violated? If someone has several knots and you don't, how is that a problem? What am I missing?

Hello Gutterbird, This topic is being discussed in another forum to which I belong and I will reiterate here what is being said there. You can't teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and it annoys the pig. If a parent does not believe that,at Scout age, their son should learn the financial responsibility of participating in fund raisers, etc. -- and some parents don't -- then trying to get their children to participate is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It's not going to happen in the culture of that Troop and that community. Your fund raiser should have at least three objectives: 1) Raise money 2) Improve the citizenship, character and fitness of Troop members 3) Have fun I would suggest that you concentrate on achieving those objectives with the Scouts who DO participate. If there is enough fun, the others will want to participate too. For those who don't, the committee does need to ensure that their financial obligations are met. Some people like selling. Some hate it. That's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

Hello Don, I received my Vigil from Walika in 1972 and as a SM took a Troop to Whitsett in 1970. I was the SM of Troop 141 at Edwards AFB. Later in June of 1973, I had the honor of directing Wood Badge course "Western 1" at Whitsett in June of 1973. Rather to scary to think that was 35 years ago!

Rightly or wrongly, you did hold the Board of Review and passed the boy. I believe that attempting to nullify that action by not sending in the form or other such action is poor form and would be immediately reversed on appeal if the boy chose to appeal. I would suggest that the question is now whether he becomes an Eagle Scout or not and whether you will go through a similar exercise or worse in 6 months. You need to decide if, based on his current actions, you believe that he will not be "worthy" of being an Eagle Scout. There are two requirements which he must be meeting at this time or he stands no chance: 1) Six months tenure 2) Six months holding a position of responsibility What is his current position of responsibility. If he doesn't hold such a position, for even one day during this six month period, he can't become an Eagle Scout. If you want to ensure that he will not become an Eagle Scout, he needs only be removed from that position of responsibility and his journey on the Eagle trail is over. Now lets look at that matter of apologizing to the Scoutmaster. It would seem that has become a real sticking point. This could be because: 1) He doesn't think he did anything wrong 2) He is too embarrassed to do it 3) He is non-verbal and is uncomfortable doing it 4) He is too macho to do it 5) Some other reason One possibility would be to "trap" him the way one would a six year old. One of the members of the Board of Review takes him aside to talk with him for a moment. The Scoutmaster then just "happens" to come by and the BOR member asks the Scout "Do you have something to say to Mr. XXXXXX." If the Scout says "I dunno." Then the BOR member asks "Weren't you going to apologize to him." Under those circumstances, the words "I apologize" may come out of the Scout's mouth. Whether he would mean it or not is another matter. Another possibility would be a very pointed counseling session and that is what I would recommend. In this, one of the BOR members takes the Scout aside and says "At your BOR, you agreed to apologize to the Scoutmaster. You haven't done it. What is the problem?" The Scout will probably say "I'll get around to it." Then the BOR member says "I'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it now. You've had plenty of time and plenty of reminders to do it. You haven't done it. Are you afraid to apologize? Do you think that you don't have anything to apologize for? Do you think that you did nothing wrong? Do you think that you had no choice? I truly want to understand and to work with you. What is going on?" You go from there. You probably will get some kind of apology and I would have the SM nearby so that he can make his apology right then if he so chooses. If he says "I'll do it," you ask "How 'bout if I get the SM right now so you can." You may hear that his parents are pushing him to make Eagle Scout and he really doesn't care about it that much. If possible, though, I'd not let it lie with the apology. You want to show and teach this Scout how adults handle this kind of difficult circumstance. You want to treat him like the adult which he will be in 5 months and now like a child. Whether he makes Eagle Scout or not is secondary to whether he learns from the situation.

Rightly or wrongly, you did hold the Board of Review and passed the boy. I believe that attempting to nullify that action by not sending in the form or other such action is poor form and would be immediately reversed on appeal if the boy chose to appeal. I would suggest that the question is now whether he becomes an Eagle Scout or not and whether you will go through a similar exercise or worse in 6 months. You need to decide if, based on his current actions, you believe that he will not be "worthy" of being an Eagle Scout. There are two requirements which he must be meeting at this time or he stands no chance: 1) Six months tenure 2) Six months holding a position of responsibility What is his current position of responsibility. If he doesn't hold such a position, for even one day during this six month period, he can't become an Eagle Scout. If you want to ensure that he will not become an Eagle Scout, he needs only be removed from that position of responsibility and his journey on the Eagle trail is over. Now lets look at that matter of apologizing to the Scoutmaster. It would seem that has become a real sticking point. This could be because: 1) He doesn't think he did anything wrong 2) He is too embarrassed to do it 3) He is non-verbal and is uncomfortable doing it 4) He is too macho to do it 5) Some other reason One possibility would be to "trap" him the way one would a six year old. One of the members of the Board of Review takes him aside to talk with him for a moment. The Scoutmaster then just "happens" to come by and the BOR member asks the Scout "Do you have something to say to Mr. XXXXXX." If the Scout says "I dunno." Then the BOR member asks "Weren't you going to apologize to him." Under those circumstances, the words "I apologize" may come out of the Scout's mouth. Whether he would mean it or not is another matter. Another possibility would be a very pointed counseling session and that is what I would recommend. In this, one of the BOR members takes the Scout aside and says "At your BOR, you agreed to apologize to the Scoutmaster. You haven't done it. What is the problem?" The Scout will probably say "I'll get around to it." Then the BOR member says "I'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it now. You've had plenty of time and plenty of reminders to do it. You haven't done it. Are you afraid to apologize? Do you think that you don't have anything to apologize for? Do you think that you did nothing wrong? Do you think that you had no choice? I truly want to understand and to work with you. What is going on?" You go from there. You probably will get some kind of apology and I would have the SM nearby so that he can make his apology right then if he so chooses. If he says "I'll do it," you ask "How 'bout if I get the SM right now so you can." You may hear that his parents are pushing him to make Eagle Scout and he really doesn't care about it that much. If possible, though, I'd not let it lie with the apology. You want to show and teach this Scout how adults handle this kind of difficult circumstance. You want to treat him like the adult which he will be in 5 months and now like a child. Whether he makes Eagle Scout or not is secondary to whether he learns from the situation.

From what I am reading, it seems not to be an Over-involved Dad as much as an over-clingy son. Let me suggest a possible approach. Have the Dad sign up as an Asst. Scoutmaster with the knowledge and consent of the son. Son will likely be proud, happy, etc. Father then explains that since he is now an ASM, he will need to treat all boys the same at meetings and campouts and that includes his son. When son comes to him, he says those magic words "Have you asked your patrol leader?" He keeps asking that as son comes back to him. Other adults look up the son and form relationship with son. This requires, of course, that the father understands that there is a problem and wants to work on it. It also represents a risk as it is a large bucket of cold water thrown on the son and on the relationship that he likes. He may say "I hate your being ASM and I want to quit Scouts now."

Hello Pack15, My post was based on data and my observations. I have observed that when a Webelos Scout earns all 20 activity badges, or much more, when the Den makes it a thing for all the boys to earn all 20 activity badges, there is an unfortunately increased chance that the boy/boys will not continue as Boy Scouts or if they do will drop out soon thereafter. I feel the same way about those boys who try to earn most or all of the merit badges. I believe that they are concentrating on one aspect of Scouting (merit badge advancement) and likely are not getting the well rounded, broadening Scouting experience which is unique. These kids know how to be stamp collectors and earn parental and adult recognition type attaboys. That is what earning all activity badges or all merit badges represents to me. I believe that outside of Boy Scouting, they have much less opportunity to be independent, be real leaders and masters of their own fate, etc. Done right, Webelos Scouting is a great program in its own right and they prepares and motivates them to continue in Boy Scouting which is another great program. Your experience and the experience of other leaders may differ. I am sharing my experience.

There's a rather puzzling element to this. This is NOT a hard requirement and takes virtually no time. Why cheat? It's almost simpler just to do the requirement. Something is missing here. Why would the boy cheat? Was he under some time pressure and being forced to wait a long time to get his turn? I remember many, many years ago when I was a Scout at summer camp, I failed Rowing merit badge because there were so many Scouts taking the badge that we never had a chance to practice some of the skills and then when the time came to do the rescues, it was "Hurry up, hurry up, we've got lots of people who have to do this."

I hit it and nothing happened. So I hit again and nothing happened. Finally, the system responded and put up 5 reps.

Hello Beaver III, Congratulations on your appointment and service as a Course Director. You'll have a great time. As someone who has directed twice (28 years apart ) and staffed about a dozen times, please let me suggest that the thing that will make the course very special is if you hold a great Wood Badge course and follow the course guide exactly as written. You don't need to add doo dads and bells and whistles to the course guide. For the participants, it is their first Wood Badge. Whatever you do is new and unique for them and they're the ones that matter. For the first time staffers, staff service is new and unique. If the multiple time staffers are getting bored and start to mess around with the course guide, it may be time for them to retire or to go to work on other training courses. Having said that, on a course this spring, we did something rather interesting. Whether it was special or not, I'll have to leave to the participants. Our SPL was very into silent signals. So a page out of an old Field Book on silent signals was included in the first Gilwell Gazette and there was a lot of silent signalling. The participants picked up on it very well and it saved a lot of voices Remember that you pledged as a course director to follow the course guide. That's your first, second and third priority.

One man's opinion here and it looks as if I am in the minority. I do have some experience in the Webelos arena. The Webelos 2 year experience is part of a journey. It is not a finish line (just like Eagle Scout should not be a finish line) You have missed an important part of your responsibility as a Webelos leader if the boys do not choose to become and actually do become active, enthusiastic Boy Scouts. I do not like the idea of having boys earn all 20 activity badges nor a recognition for that. I have observed that all too often, boys who try to earn all 20 activity badges either "burn out" as Webelos Scouts or else do crossover as Boy Scouts and then quickly drop out. There is too much concentration on getting badge after badge after badge and on those badges which are not in the prime interest area of each boy. Plus there is so much concentration on the activity badges that the relations with the Boy Scout Troop are not well handled. I would much rather prefer that the boys earn the badges that they need for the Arrow of Light, maybe a few more, but that there be plenty of good relationship building with a Troop and encouragement and excitement building for what Boy Scouting offers.

I would suggest a couple of things: 1) Look honestly at the agenda and what actually happens at a meeting and say "If I were someone marginally interested in the organization, would I consider my time here to be well spent?" If not, ask why not and remedy it. If you aren't sure about it, or even if you are, ask some of the members how the meeting might be improved. 2) If the meeting is a series of one-on-one conversations, you might ask whether the meeting needs to occur or whether those conversations can better be held by phone conversations. 3) Ideally, a district meeting has the functions of keeping the group together (morale, spirit, collaborativeness) and getting the job done (functions and tasks and projects to help units, leaders and Scouts.) The reason to have a meeting is to encourage and enable collaboration among several leaders and several committees and to produce a better product than any committee can achieve on its own. It's also to produce a certain amount of positive competitiveness (I see that the Camping group is really doing good stuff; our training group had better get on the stick and do some good stuff too.) It also should help leaders feel not alone in their jobs but rather feel encouraged that they have help. 4) The District Meeting should not be a grump session, nor a place where the DE or District Chairman harrangues the District Committee. Why come to a meeting to be made to feel bad? In my experience, good District Committees and District Meetings are relatively rare and occur when the District Chairman is someone who is very positive, a good cheerleader and who makes people feel good about themselves and good about Scouting. I believe that it is more important that people feel motivated to do something than necessarily to cover everything in the meeting. Have a great time as District Chairman.

Thank you, FScouter. Just to reemphasize that LIFE SCOUT IS NOT A FAILURE!!! and that advancement is not the only thing that matters in Scouting.

Hello Jaxvol, Good thread, good discussion. However, I respectfully suggest that the discussion is missing what I believe is the most important point. We're in this game to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth. Not to award Eagle Scout badges. That's a means to an end. I believe that the boy will not be awarded the Eagle Scout award. He did not complete the requirements. I believe that will be upheld on appeal. More significantly, one of two things will happen: 1) He will believe that he got screwed, his parents will protest and believe that he got screwed, the Troop, District, etc. will believe that they are protecting the "purity" of Scouting. Everybody will become angry. He and his parents may end up hating Scouting, hating the Troop, hating the leaders, hating the chartering organization, blaming everbody in sight including Al Qaida except himself and feeling and taking no responsibility OR 2) He will understand and accept what has happened and understand that matters were in his control in the months and years before his 18th birthday. He may not be happy, but will understand that it is totally as a result of his actions and non-actions that he is not an Eagle Scout and never will be. He may resolve that he may have missed out on becoming an Eagle Scout but never again will me miss out on something that he wished because of his own delays and failure to act. He will feel good about Scouting that he was treated fairly and with respect. If he chooses to appeal, the Troop will help him with his appeal and will help him present the information in the best possible light but help him to understand that his appeal is asking the BSA to contravene explicitly stated procedures. His time in Scouting will be honored and he may be "graduated" with a nice ceremony. If appropriate, he may join the Troop as an ASM. He may become a Venturer and continue as a "youth" member of Scouting. 3) Something between 1 and 2. The question, as I see it, is not whether he will become an Eagle Scout. It is how the Troop and District arrange outcome 2 which will be, in my opinion, to the greatest advantage to the Scout and to everybody else concerned.

Interesting thread. Sometimes, we hear of parents who put their kids on "vacations" from meds for summer camp. Then, they don't mention this on medical forms, etc. When the kids goes bonkers, they are sometimes asked"Why didn't you tell us?" and the answer is "If I had told you, you wouldn't have taken him." In this case, I might ask not what we would have done if we were the BOR but rather what we would have done if we were the kid. The choices would seem to be 1) Not put the burden on the SM and take the very large chance that the Committee would say "Sorry, you screwed up, we won't hold a BOR for you." 2) Lie a bit and put a bit of a guilt trip on the SM and the Committee. There is always a chance that they still won't hold the BOR or will flunk me for Life Scout. But in that case, I haven't really lost anything relative to case 1). Either way, I'm out of luck and don't have any chance to make Eagle Scout. No one, not the Scout and not the Committee, knows what would have happened if the Scout had lied about asking for the SM Conference. It would seem that if the Committee had really wanted to "teach a lesson" about being Trustworthy, the only way would have been to fail the Scout and tell him that if he hadn't lied, he would have passed. Would I have done that? I don't think so. I don't believe that advancement and Eagle Scout is the be all and end all of Scouting. Here was a teachable moment in another extremely important part of the Scout Law which, in my opinion, in today's society is very often ignored, trampled and considered a sign of weakness and wimpiness. That point is "A Scout is Kind." The Committee was extremely Kind to the Scout to hold the BOR, to consider him and to pass him. I would not play any games like the one with the clock (although I do think that is rather brilliant.) I wouldn't jerk him around but I would be very straight. In retrospect, I would say something like "We have considered things carefully. We are very concerned about your violating "A Scout is Trustworthy." You may have felt that you had no choice if you wanted to be an Eagle Scout, and perhaps you are right. In that vein, you need to decide if you truly have what it takes to be a Life Scout and perhaps to be an Eagle Scout. You are the one that needs to prove to yourself that you are worthy. We definitely think you can do that, but it is up to you. But we want to lay upon you an obligation concerning another Scout Law. In making our decision, we considered, as adults, our obligation under the Scout Oath and Scout Law. We particularly considered another Law -- A Scout is Kind. We have decided to be Kind to you. We do this to enable you to go forward but also to set an example to you. The obligation we lay on you is the following: At times in the future, you will have power and rights over people. You can make decisions to grant them something they want and to deny it. You will certainly have that right over your children if you are a parent. You may have it in business, in Scouting and in other places. Times may come when you have the right to deny something. At moments like that, we obligate you to be Kind. To be Friendly. To be Courteous. Not to be formal and only to think of the law. Most important, if being Kind requires you to take some kind of personal risk and to risk criticism not of the person but of yourself for being Kind, still to follow that difficult Law "A Scout is Kind." (Depending upon your political beliefs, you might add) You will see examples of the opposite in "zero tolerance" policies and procedures. There is no mercy shown and no consideration given of the person, of motivation, or of circumstances. Zero tolerance makes it easy for the person in charge. The person in charge can be a coward and hide behind the zero tolerance policy. And a Scout cannot be a coward. A Scout is Brave. A Scout is Kind. This, among other things, is now your obligation - A Scout is Kind. Will you accept this obligation?" At least in retrospect, I think that's how I might have handled it.