Mike F

Kamakamelian, Welcome back to the campfire! As I once heard Gen Norman Schwarzkopf say, "When put in charge, take charge!" You're doing that. Your troop has a mess on its hands and you're the perfect guy to help untangle the ropes. I would have a chat with friendly Unit Commissioner so you can let them know you are working this challenge. You might have the UC be there for your first Troop Committee meeting. The UCs and District Staff don't want units to fail. They will help you. I would also begin immediately to sign up any other possible members for your committee. Perhaps a few of the folks who served with you in the past. With kids off to college, maybe they have time again. Let them know it is a short term commitment - maybe just a year. You need some level heads in there to help balance the bluster. Consider not starting with a Committee meeting. Perhaps immediately start attending - or at least day-visiting - a few campouts so you can get a good feel for the status of troop program and health. This also allows you to better bond with the other adults who are in this with you. Perhaps a social gathering of like-minded people to talk over current affairs and options for moving forward. I would do this in a place with no youth so the discussion can be frank. Rather than saying the troop's top priority is dealing with these adults, consider naming recruiting as top priority. In truth, they go together, because getting this toxic problem resolved is key to creating the positive, dynamic program which attracts new members. Since you're sitting at such low numbers, you may very well be in danger of losing your charter if don't have enough at the time of recharter. If some drop after you complete recharter (which seems likely), you have a year to get your numbers up. Since your recharter is due in a few weeks, I think I would just recharter the whole family (assuming dads meet training requirements). If dads don't meet requirement, it's not your fault and you don't have the option, but it doesn't have to be adversarial. You can politely say it's out of your hands until they complete the training. In the meantime, you'll be working with your group of like-minded folks to see the importance of controlling toxic attitudes in the troop. Good luck. The trail ahead is rocky, but the mountain tops are calling!

Moose - darned forums - it's hard to hear the tone of voice! #26 has a definite element of truth to it, but I would phrase it differently. Your story is sad. Hope prison scared him straight.

Eagle732, I have to disagree with your last recommendation: "Where does the WDL say we should go? Then that's where we should all go!" Just as every boy has his own personality, so does each troop. When there is a good match between a boy and his troop, he is more likely to stay in scouts. I know his Cub/Webelos friends seem important now, but there are many adventures and changes ahead as he moves from 5th grade through the end of high school. He is going to be making many more friends. Some boys do great in a large troop where they like the huge events and general high level of noise/interaction. Other boys get overwhelmed in that environment and would be much happier in a smaller troop. Sensitive leaders can help steer boys to the troop where they will be most likely to prosper.

I have taught lashing and pioneering skills for many years. This is very cool - THANKS!

In the troop I serve, when a Scout earns First Class, he's earns the right to wear whatever sheath knife he wants to strap onto his belt. Many will start with something huge and later figure out that small-medium works fine for almost everything and is more practical to carry. When I carry one, it's a big honkin' one made in Russia. They also know that if any scout - much less a First Class or above Scout - messes around with a knife, then he's in big trouble. We have never had any trouble. There are some BSA camps which don't allow them. Fine - our guys keep them packed or leave them at home. I respect the fact the camps can set their own rules.

Ours are held periodically on a meeting night. All scouts are expected to be there and most show up. Getting parents there is another challenge. Keep it snappy. Don't let any leader (youth or adult) get long winded. Consider special things like slideshow from the last few months of activities. Parents and boys love to see this and it includes all the guys - not just the ones getting awards that night. Snacks and social time are a great time to recruit more volunteers to help with a little project to get them involved.

DeanRx, You may decide not to promote it or include it in program in any way, but if a scout earns it, it absolutely should be awarded to him. If you decide to withhold it, at the same time you are required to tell him his options for appeal to the District Advancement Chair. If they press, you will lose and draw into question the methods you are using in your unit. It's not worth it. Give the kid his belt loop. Maybe after he gets that one, he'll be inspired to add more.

Cut and paste error: I wrote: "Large Troop PROS - Lots of guys potentially lots of friends. - Can provide lots of different opportunities. - With fewer resources, finding volunteers for merit badge counselors, etc. can be a challenge" That last one should be: - Bigger troop has more resources, typically more MB counselors and opportunities for experts and involvement.

rj, My opinions to your original question follow. (You can search on similar discussions in the past.) Small Troop PROS - More individual attention, boys don't get lost in the shuffle as easily and have a greater sense of belonging - Complexity of running the troop at all levels is within ability of many experienced scouts - Level of chaos is lower (few boys = fewer problems and less noise. Many things get exponential with size.) - Easier to mobilize the troop for activities (number of vehicles/required adults/campsites/etc.) - Attrition: In my District I have data for 5 years to show the smaller troops lose less than half the percentage as compared to the big troops. The larger the troop, the greater percentage of scouts who decide after 1-3 years to drop out of scouting. - In my experience working with troops of both sizes, the smaller troops have a higher attendance at meetings and all activities. Small Troop CONS - Fewer opportunities for different activities. With small troop, they will likely only be going to one summer camp and if you can't make that one, you're out of luck. Most big troops I know will do more than one. - Might be more dependent on few dedicated leaders to provide vision and guidance. Transitions can be a challenge. - With fewer resources, finding volunteers for merit badge counselors, etc. can be a challenge Large Troop PROS - Lots of guys potentially lots of friends. - Can provide lots of different opportunities. - With fewer resources, finding volunteers for merit badge counselors, etc. can be a challenge Large Troop CONS - Chaos and confusion goes up with numbers. - Its easier for a young scout to get lost in the crowd and slip through the cracks. - Complexities of size can exceed youth abilities to lead, requiring much more adult work. - In my experience, higher attrition rates and lower participation rates. - Challenge to mobilize troop (gear, huge trailers, campsite issues, etc.) Im pretty transparent. Having extensively served 5 units through the years varying from a start-up with 15 to a monster with 135, I have a profoundly strong preference for troops in the 25-40 scout range. I would add another question to ask of the troops or your District, but nobody will answer it for you: How many of the scouts who joined you 3 years ago are still registered? They will say they dont know, but I know every troop keeps rosters of all members and you can bet someone has them from the last few years. District doesn't easily have the numbers by year group, but they do know how many scouts decide not to recharter every year. I don't know if it's a National thing, but in our Council we are required to submit information on dropped scouts. There is always rationalization these dropped for sports, these dropped due to school/band/family issues/etc. but the truth is that if the boy (and family) believe they are getting value for their time and effort, scouting takes on a higher priority and they stick with it to a greater degree. With the exception of the statements about attrition (which are based on actual records from my District), all of the above are opinion. As always, your mileage may vary.

Platypus, First of all, congratulations! You are a leader and it sounds like you're a wise and experienced one. The fact that your official position in the troop is OA rep does not mean you have a small voice and responsibility as a member team. Your troop and your friend need you to stay engaged - and you're doing just that. I was in a similar position many moons ago - even had to break in my new SM. Your friend is the SPL and he has access to SM by virtue of his position that others don't have. Don't let the chatter get to him. He should set up regular, weekly tagups with the SM to discuss the troop, upcoming plans, staff progress, leadership challenges, etc. Don't start dumping on the other guy too much at first. Work with SM and give them both a chance to learn to work together. As SM gets to know SPL, he'll also begin to see how SM needs to assist him - maybe by helping run interference. My preference as SPL was to go over to SM's home on Sun evening. With my SPL today we do more via email, but meet in person periodically. SPL should come to these short meetings prepared with ideas - not just blank sheets of paper. SM will respect the heck out of that. Try to diffuse it away from SPL versus disgruntled scout. Rather than arguing about how well the troop is running and why, just grab hold and run it while seeking advice and guidance from SM. In truth, they will be learning together. Hang in there!

To answer Cubby's question, yes, the troop I serve limits recruiting to keep our numbers at about 33-35 scouts. We do it by putting out the word how many we have room to take. Those who are interested find us early. It's not a Frat Rush process (or don't think so - never experienced that), but I have recommended a few guys check out another specific troop if I think it will be a better fit for him. If they come back a week or so later, we've held the spot for them. We're blessed to have 7 troops in our immediate vicinity, so there are lots of options. Every boy has a unique personality as does every troop. When they're a good match, the boy is going to be happier and more likely to stick around. Our retention is very high. We've only had one scout drop out of scouting in the last year. We already have our "limit" for the Spring because we have 3 brothers joining and they'll push us over the brink. Having said all that, when that "just one more" boy shows up the week of his crossover and has his heart absolutely set on joining our troop, we always make room for him. A reasonable question is WHY? There are multiple reasons: 1. Facility - we already max out our CO's available space. 2. BP's recommendation on troop size. 3. Many things can be summed up as "we know our limits" as ChaiAdv wrote (which is also essentially what BP said in his discussion about troop size). I have served a mega-troop with 135 scouts and it is not my desire to do so again. http://www.entertonement.com/clips/rnhqrfsfzd--Know-his-limitationsClint-Eastwood-Harry-Callahan-Magnum-Force-

Eagle732, It sounds like you have all the program stuff in place and you are actively working on outreach, so Id like to probe more along another line of thinking. Do your guys really want to recruit? Do they want to grow the troop? Are they ready, willing, and able to take on a bunch of guys without experience? Are the willing to go through that initial phase with lots of enthusiasm, but immature outbursts? Do they look after the troops newer guys right now as if they were younger brothers who they like? If any of these are no, you need to work on a culture shift first. I have seen recruiting efforts hampered by older boys in the troop who didnt want the hassle of new guys. They didnt actively run them off; they just ignored them and/or clearly showed their annoyance.

Stosh, I feel your pain. Our local mega-troop has horrible retention numbers, but those are ignored because they are - well - big, therefore must be successful and have a lot of stroke at District and Council. Instead of digging in to understand some meaningful measures of merit, like percentage of 3rd year boys remaining who recharter, or percentage who join who eventually make Eagle, we publish (publish!!) total numbers of Eagle by troop. "Troop A has 150 Eagles, they must be good!" Nevermind that 15000+ scouts joined that troop and didn't make it to Eagle. Cripes - it's not about Eagle - it's about growing young men. But they keep going back to the Eagle number. Boys leave scouting for lots of reasons. The biggest is a value choice they make between scouts and band/sports/cars/girlfriends/X-Box/jobs/drugs/homework/etc. If the scouts (and parents) think we offer time well spent, they make their choice accordingly.

Eagle732, Get all of your guys to buy in and engage. They have friends with no scouting background who would love some dangerous adventure. These have been some of our best recruits. (We're closing on another one to help fill in gap from low-recruiting years.) All the best, m

Eagle732, Sounds familiar. Were holding strong at about 30-32 with 3 patrols for years, but recruiting slowed for a few years. We hadn't had any internal problems and retention was very good. It burned me to see local mega-troop bring in literally 30-50 boys per year, then lose most of them. Our 3 patrols shrank to 2. Then those two patrols were getting pretty slim with about 14-15 members in the troop. We got into a discussion about the future of the troop during semi-annual Troop JLT. Through discussion, the guys came to understand if we didn't change some things, there wouldn't be a troop for their younger brothers. They got really animated and started brainstorming ways to reach out better. They set a specific goal of recruiting enough new guys within one year to reform our third patrol. Through the guy's initiative, we started doing the following: - volunteering at District events - SPL and a couple others started attending Roundtable and chatting up Webelos leaders - Every visitor to troop meeting was openly welcomed and immediately included in the action (boy action - not adults - and probably the most important by a lot) - inviting friends who were interested in outdoors, but never in Scouts - inviting Scout friends who were on the verge of dropping out of mega-troop Parents got in the act and started keeping their radar up. We had moms recruit new members while standing in the checkout line at grocery store. Dads were stopped in parking lot at work when someone asked about their "I'm proud of my Scout" bumper sticker. The guys decided another way to get attention was to stand in the winner's circle at district camporee, so they pushed hard to get and keep everyone's basic skills strong. They immediately starting winning most of the top awards - to almost everyone's astonishment. Our numbers had grown enough in 11 months to reform that third patrol. Today we are holding steady at 32-35 members and have the opposite problem with recruiting. Bottom Line: Engage the guys and see if you can get them to accept growth as a top priority. Help them understand every contact is an opportunity to include another good guy in their awesome troop.

Welcome back to the campfire, Bluejacket!

I've seen it done such that SPL and ASPLs stayed in original patrols for meals and some activities, but it's a mistake. Definitely need to keep senior leaders (SPL/ASPLs) out of PL's hair. Senior staff tents in same area as SM Staff, eats with SM Staff, etc.

Once upon a time, we had troop tents and liked the uniformity, neatness and sharing of parts. We had all the problems you mention and it was a big headache - mostly for adults. We transitioned by telling the older guys they could bring their own tent if they wanted to use it instead of troop tents. They loved it, found ways to buy their own or asked for them for birthday, etc. Younger guys started getting their own, too. As the number of functional troop tents decreased, so did the demand. After 2 years we had 2-3 experienced scouts using troop tents and most of the first-year guys. After 3 years, only a few first year guys. This week - after 5 years - we just made the decision to give/throw away the last remaining troop tents which hadn't been used in over a year. New guys are simply bunking with older guys in their patrol until they get their own to share with a buddy. With beginner tents so cheap they are practically disposable, things have changed a lot. Most start out really cheap. Older boys definitely enjoy moving up to a higher-end tent as they move up in scouts. Guys definitely take better care of their own tent. And it they don't, they live with the natural consequences. This is one major headache gone forever.

Irsap, Beautiful! But don't resign from the troop too quickly - they need good leaders too - just give your son room. Maybe take off a few months to let him get used to you not being there. Then go back and help those other boys - perhaps some without a dad at home. I tell my leaders on campouts two things: 1. We have no parents on campouts - only leaders who are there for all the boys. 2. A casual observer should not be able to determine which boy goes with which parent. Boy Scouting is not a parent-child activity and parents on campouts are not there to be parents. They are there to serve all the boys in the troop. OK - it's really the same thing in two different ways. Gets the point across. And have fun with the Webs too!

The troop I serve brings in transfer scouts every year. As SM, I meet with them first to make sure they seem like a good fit and I talk to them about the program they are leaving as compared to ours. Some jump in without missing a beat. Some struggle to catch up with troop norms and appear on the outside to stagnate a year or two. I know they are growing to catch up. If parents will trust us, we will get them there.

SSS - thanks - I am laughing out loud. All - thanks for clarifying my thinking. It's time for a cup of camp coffee. (But Earl Gray works, too!)

Thanks again for your insights. When they originally left, I didn't broadcast the reason. None of the boys and minority of the adults knew the full extent of the behind the scenes drama, nuclear emails, etc. About 2 months ago, I received an email from one parent about visiting with intent to transfer back after Eagle. After agonizing for days, I told them NO its not in the boys best interest to transfer back and forth. I found out last night they have made several visits to recruit for the upcoming Eagle project and chum around. These visits all took place when I was out of town. When the parent showed up last night with some other family members and started talking about how much they looked forward to coming back in a few months so they (yes they) could enjoy our program, I pulled parent outside alone and said NO again. There was just too much drama and hard feelings the last time. Were not opening ourselves up to this whole scene again. After the meeting, I gave senior youth leaders the condensed version. Scoutmaster Staff is now fully informed. CC will quit the day this family walks in our door as members. We are going to batten down the hatches as we prepare to take some heavy rolls. At least the storm will be on the outside of the ship.

I appreciate your thoughts. More info. There are two big issues. 1. Family was highly combative about any perceived issue with scout. One parent served on TC and drove off a number of other volunteers with harsh attitudes and outbursts. Actually seemed clinically psychotic at times. When parent quit TC in a rage and email barrage, continued to come to all troop meetings and stalk angrily around the parking lot spewing anger to any who would venture near. Over the course of time, I spent 40-50 hours on the phone and in the home of this family trying to calm them down and re-explain how the Scouting program works. We tolerated it while they were there, but all of the adults in our troop breathed a sigh of relief when they made the decision to transfer. 2. The number one reason they transferred: The parents made the decision because they were dissatisfied with his rate of advancement in the troop I serve and were adamant he must earn his Eagle before turing 16. We use the book elect/select program for PORs and expect increasing levels of responsibility as he climbs the ladder. This lad sought several positions, was trained, monitored, and coached, but refused to follow through and do anything, so he didn't get signed off and didn't get the rank credit - the first time - but we continued to work with him to help him understand and grow. Simply put, the family moved to another troop which they had heard was much more liberal in the way they run their advancement program. The family told me last night the boy hates the new troop, has only been on one campout in 17 months, and rarely participates in any other activities. It's hard for me to understand how it would be possible in this situation for him to have advanced from 1stClass to Eagle in that time without participation. They want to come back because we run a dynamic, fun program. One parent told me flat out last night that now that he had his Eagle knocked out where he could get it done quicker, he wanted to come back to run our troop since he would be the highest ranking scout. "Nope - that's still not the way it works. Just like that wasn't the way it worked when your son was the highest ranking boy in his patrol and couldn't get elected to PL because the other boys all thought he was lazy." OK - I didn't say all of that. I was glad to work with this scout when he was with us and endured a lot in the process, but that's what we do - put up with a lot of guff for the boys. Now I feel like I've lost a year and a half of working with him, yet he comes back with lesson that there's an easy way out. Here we go again.

We had a scout transfer to another area troop over a year ago. With many problems at home and in his past, this lad desperately needed Scouting. Unfortunately, his time with us was filled with problems with parents hateful emails, late night phone calls, angry public outbursts, and formal complaints to Council. Most of the problem centered on our advancement program. Since leaving, the family has been vocal about son not liking the new troop, wants to have nothing to do with them, and has only been on one campout in a year and a half. The scout has come back to our troop to recruit help for his upcoming Eagle project. Tonight his father came by our troop meeting to talk about their transfer back to our troop as soon as he finishes his Eagle in the other troop. Wow that floored me. What would YOU do?

We have had a few scouts transfer to other units and I always give the receiving SM a call to fill him with my insights - both positive and negative. I am always clear these are my impressions and I hope the boy finds the new unit to be a better fit. For boys with a history of problems, I believe this information could be very useful for the new SM to help the scout family (scout + parents) adjust into his new home troop. If he was expelled from the troop I serve for something serious, like violence, I would personally consider it negligence if I didn't let the new unit know. The scout deserves an opportunity to start over, but the SM deserves the heads up so he can keep an extra eye on things in order to better help the transfer scout and protect the ones he already has. Indeed, his first priority is to protect the existing members of his troop. After that he has to decide if he can handle the new challenge. In order to do this, he needs information.