BadenP

Barry It is not only WDL's but for most pack positions arm twisting is a part of getting the pack off the ground since the adults are for the most part new to scouting and the least trained and experienced. You make my point that the WDL training from National DOES NOT do much to properly prepare them to train the boys for boy scouts, in addition the WDL's time committment is much more than a regular den leader which many are unwilling to give. The result is that in most packs the weakest links seem to be the Tigers and the Webelos. and both have high dropout rates.

CNY For one thing the UC is there to help a unit, especially ones in trouble. Many unit leaders look at UC's as council spies and so that makes their job even more difficult. To have you ask that units families for money will not make you a welcome visitor, and you will always be viewed as the guy that asks for money rather than the UC there to help. The DE and district committee should select key people to do these presentations, such as someone well known in the local community with a scouting background and who can bestow how the virtues of scouting helped him/her to become successful. Those types of presentations tend to bring in much better returns than someone unknown giving a canned presentation. A UC should be a units friend, not someone who is there to ask for something from them.

Barry The problem with your scenario is that it is not what happens in the real world. Most WDl's are not trained well enough these days to make the Webelos program work. The personal time restraints, and lack of desire in many cases prevent them for going to the more advanced training classes that would help them be successful. WDL is one of the hardest jobs for a pack to fill because it requires even more time for preparation than a regular den meeting. As a DE I saw in many packs how the Webelos den was suffering because the WDL was someone they had arm twisted into taking the job, and that the person was undertrained, to say the least, and was in over their heads. This resulted in boys leaving in the first year in large numbers. The DTC and I developed a special, intense WDL training course that we held during RT each month. Those leaders who graduated from the program had huge success rates with their Webelos programs, eventually we got all WDL's through the program, the dropout rate went from 60% to less than 10%. My point is that we had to go beyond the book resources to a viable,and proven working model of how to make the Webelos program really be successful, something National training programs have been unable to do.

Lisabob M.Y.O.B.

moosetracker I just bet you were the one that started and ended that war without ever talking to the crew advisor even once. Venturing crews are not in the business of stealing boys but to give them additional or alternative scouting experiences, your lack of understanding with the venturing program is painfully obvious. Your typical MO of attack first and ask questions later makes you more of a liability than an asset to your unit and your district.

Beavah is correct this is a free country and this is far less worse than people buying military awards such as a Purple Heart, Congressional Medal of Honor, Bronze Star, and many others and portraying themselves as former service members. As was discussed in another thread in most National scout stores you can buy restricted items without any proof or paperwork. I know of one case where a non scouting person, adult, went in to the scout store and bought a Eagle award presentation set because he thought it "looked cool" and he had it displayed in his home during a party. When I asked him when he was in scouts he said,"I never was in scouts but I always wanted to be an Eagle scout." I told him he was not entitled to have that award since he never earned it and he was committing a fraud claiming it was his. He looked at me and said "it's no fraud I paid for the dam* thing, so it is mine." If someone wants to be a pretender and dishonest they will be and there is not much you can do about it.

All these reasons, some valid and others being a real stretch aside, the real problem is the Webelos program itself. A two year program doing the same thing each year and expecting to keep older boys interested is not very realistic. I was a WDL during the transition from a one year to a two year program so I know the merits and pitfalls of both. If you want the boys to be ready for a troop you better have good relations with at least two troops that offer different styles of program for the boys to choose from otherwise your transition will fail. Some boys like the gung ho all outdoor dominate troop while others prefer a combination of camping and diverse activities, and getting the right boys matched with the right troop is 90% of the battle. I know so many Webelos dens who never go camping outside of a backyard den campout and have virtually no troop contact before the transition and then the den leaders and parents wonder why their boys drop out of boy scouts during the 1st year. Next the second year of Webelos is supposed to be about learning the skills and preparing with a focusing on becoming boy scouts, but too many dens just keep working on activity badges and focus only on the cub side, and then are surprised when their boys are ill prepared and some downright scared to go into a troop. Part of this problem is the WDL training, while better than it used to be, falls way short of showing proven methods to make this transition a rather simple one. I have had three years as a WDL and all of my boys went into and stayed in boy scouts, 80% of them were awarded their Eagle. I have led WDL training classes and have even trained some of my former Webelos as WDL's. For a two year Webelos program to work and for the boys to successfully transition and do well in a troop the pack, and WDL need to follow a program that really prepares the boys, unfortunately many do not and the horrible statistics are the proof.

Not at all moosetracker, I have read your posts and your intent is quite clear, to rile up both council and committee members to view things your way when in fact you are not in any key position in the district at present. You are going into battle without any ammunition or backup which is a guaranteed disaster. I am not mad at you at all just not in agreement with the aggressive way you approach this problem. If I were the district training chair or one of the district Key 3 this would give me ample reason not to have you on the dist. committee. While your intent may be good your methodology leaves much to be desired.

I never said she should not take WB John, don't put words in my mouth either. This started out as a general question about committee members and WB, for some reason you decided to make it personal, and no I never claimed to speak for anyone other than myself, unlike yourself.

Two peas in a pod and both wrong. Listen committee folks need better training in what and how a committee functions and what it supposed to do, and stats show most of them never get any training because there really isn't a good training program for them. WB requires a lot of time and money during and after the course, and the content really is of little benefit to committee members functions. With volunteers time and money being in short supply these days WB is hardly the best use of either for committee members, unless they have aspirations to become a SM or CA someday, and most of them do not. So Barry and moose, I say again if a committee member fully understands the committment and still wants WB then fine let them take it, however don't try to tell them it will make them better committee members, it just is not true. You two sound like you are trying to relive your youth scouting experiences or lack of youth scouting experiences as adults, and I just bet your uniforms are just covered with all kinds of patches and knots that proves it.

From the very good points others have brought up I think it is pretty clear that a 2 year Webelos program is too long to hold a boys interest and needs to be totally revamped, this is not a race to the arrow of light which too many webelos leaders make it. If the transistion stats are ever going to improve National has to rethink the two year Webelos program. First idea maybe the boy can not be eligible to earn the AOL until the 5th grade,second, maybe in year two emphasize more activity with the troop so they can enter the troop with not only the AOL but with the scout rank badge as well, both of which should be restricted to fifth grade WebII scouts. Boy scout membership nationally has been on a steady decline for over 10 years now, cubs are not transitioning into troops like they should, and National remains clueless how to solve this problem. WDL's need much more support, a better thought out program, and specialized training from both council and National if this trend is ever going to reverse itself.

moosetracker Once again you seem to have trouble either reading or comprehending other posts. I stated very clearly that if a committee person wanted to take WB they should. I followed up with stating that in my opinion WB would not necessarily make them a better committee members because the traing has a very different focus, and that WB requires a lot of time and expense to fully complete.

Moosetracker If you decide to make it a contest between you the DE and other committee members you are going to end up on the losing end and probably removed from the committee. You need to learn how to work with people with different approachs than yourself. IMHO you seem to have an agressive my way is the only way attitude and that will not help the situation, just make it a whole lot worse. You are in a very tenuous position right now, kind of on the committee but with no real position or duties, sounds to me like the committee has you on probation to see whether or not you will be a good fit. Going after the DC, DE, and other committee members will give them cause to boot you off the committee and probably all district responsibilities in the future.

Sorry moosetracker but you are WAY off base here, I am a COR/CC of a venturing crew and our committee gets along very well thank you, and it is obvious you did not read my post very throughly. You are new and obviously untrained in the ways of scouting as this and your other posts just make very clear. Instead of stirring up trouble here with crazy assumptions and in your committee(other thread)try listening and learning the proper procedures to follow and you will become a better scouter. Your approach seems to be to stir up and create trouble rather than solve problems.

Moosetracker Eamonn gives some good advice, however since you are new and without a specific position I would add to get one or more of the experienced committee members to go with you for support and to give the history to the council president. Going alone to complain may get you left out of committee decisions or even getting tossed off the committee, I have seen it happen before as a volunteer and DE. Make sure you have a solid game plan in place before you take action. Good Luck!

ACCO & Scoutnut The illogic of your statements is quite humorous, why would any COR remove anyone without reason, can they is not even relevant to the discussion at hand. Most COR's are intelligent and logical enough not to interfere with a smooth running unit or for a personal vendetta. Apparently some forum members have trouble following a logical thought process through, instead relying on illogical innuendo to make their point.

Scoutnut Did you even read what you posted? If a COR has a reason to remove a volunteer, he can, but the clue is there has to be a good reason to justify it otherwise he is just handicapping the unit. You need to have some logic in your post so it will make sense, yours and Acco's did not. Gunny gives another good example, you could learn from his scenario.

Scoutfish, I find your argument to be full of human emotion and highly illogical, however you are only human so you are subject to emotional outbursts of irrational thoughts.

Eagle92 Part of the problem is the inconsistency nationwide, when I was visiting a large Texas city I stopped in their large scout shop and I was admiring a special council issue restricted item, the sales clerk told me I could buy it if I wanted no paperwork needed. In my experience the large national run shops DO NOT seem to be too concerned about the rules on restricted items, rank badges, scouter awards,knots, WB beads, OA items, etc. If they are not concerned why should we be.

If you are in a bigger council with a National scout shop and you identify yourself as a scout leader they have never once asked for an advancement report. Only in the smaller council scout shops do they ask for one, but even there if you forget the form they will still let you buy the badges if you agree to mail the form in, "A scout is honest". The big National shops carry so much inventory and could care less about advancement forms, all they do is throw them away anyway. I went in to our National shop,not in uniform, and bought three Eagle badges, five Ranger awards and four Silver awards and they never even asked what unit they were for or for any paperwork, go figure.

ACCO Why would a COR remove a volunteer without cause or reason, that makes no sense just like your post. Need to think before you write dude, lol.

This has pretty well been beaten to death, look the CC is the head of the committee and whose purpose outside of voting in committee is to break a deadlock when one occurs. The SM/CM reports to the committee monthly on the progress/program of the unit but does not work for them. The COR is a rep of the CO who signs off on volunteers or can remove them with cause. You guys do realize that the only adult dual registered position in the BSA is the CC/COR, which indicates the CC is more than just a committee member. Now for a reality check, how many committees ever see the COR at their meetings, very few if any I bet. Ego's do get in the way of effective unit leadership, and sadly committee members tend to be the least trained in any units adult leader roster. All adults are there to give the kids the best program possible, any of them who are there for personal gain or glory should be removed ASAP plain and simple. No one works for anyone else, each adult has a specific function to perform and working as a team to keep the unit program flowing smoothly, period.

But ED you could be Luke Skywalker to Merlyns Darth Vader to see whose force is the strongest and destroy the evil Death Star once and for all, lol.

SctDad This seems to be a growing problem in the OA nationwide, after being inducted into the lodge only a small handful want to be ACTIVE and PARTICIPATE in events outside the NOAC. IMHO the idea of SERVICE is lost on most of the boys. Maybe the interest in the OA itself is just wanning among the scouts of today.

My feelings are kind of mixed on this, if committee members take WB I can just imagine all the debates at the meetings as to what is best for the program, what their instructors told them, bragging on their ticket projects, and the members who do not go feeling out of place and looked down on. Would WB be good for them, probably, would it make them better committee members, probably not, just more program knowledgeable. If any members really understand what is required and want to take the time and effort and frustration of going through WB then more power to them.