BadenP

Beav IMHO your argument seems to be, I get nothing out of it so why bother. I didn't know that you personally set the standard for the whole BSA, lol. Look I agree some of the services I have been to were weak, mainly because there are no real guidelines to developing a really strong program, which is the main problem. All I can say to you is don't attend, but don't come across as some kind of naysayer just because it suits your own ego.

"I can not think of any interdenominational service that was worthwhile" "So why do it" - Beavah. To try to answer your questions Beav, most Christians in the USA go to church less than once a month, many not at all, according to a recent study done by some Christian focus groups. For many scouts the Scouts Own may be the only exposure they may have to a scout is reverent. Thats the why of doing it IMHO. Worthwhile, hmmm, what does that really mean? Did the boys come away with a new perspective on an issue facing them? Did they learn that anger or violence or just giving up on something important in their lives is never the answer? We adults as we get older become more jaded and unbending in our faith practices and not open to alternative methods. Many go to church to be entertained instead on really focusing on what the real purpose of being reverent really means. As a Christian minister I have witnessed and experienced some very special and spiritual moments at interfaith gatherings. Maybe some of you need to help guide or train, or even be a part of your Scouts Own teams in creating a meaningful and worthwhile experience. There are enough jaded naysayers and negative people in the world today, my way is the only way philosophy has no place in any form of showing reverence for those things we are grateful for in our lives.

Bando To answer you, because the Scouts Own was never meant to be a substitute for your normal Sunday practice of worship, if you want that invite a chaplain from your faith tradition to hold a service at camp. Its purpose was to give all scouts from all traditions a time for private meditation and prayer, and to hear a positive, not doctrine, message in the beautiful surroundings of nature. For Catholics and Jews with their ritualistic orientations, and yourself wanting a mini Christian scriptures service defeats the purpose of what a Scouts Own is supposed to be.

Beavah I think you miss the point, a Scouts Own service is not supposed to be a true religious service or a replacement for any denominational service, that was not why they were created. It is a method/opportunity for scouts of many different faiths who are away at a camp or wilderness on a Sunday to get together and to reflect on their God and the beauty of the creation around them, and to quietly reflect on being reverent in their own particular style. The readings should be positive,motivational, and uplifting, but not from any particular religions sacred texts. The term worship service is also a misnomer as well because then it becomes a Protestant, Catholic, Jewish service for example all of which worship in a very different and not really in a compatible way. To try to develop a combo one size fits all faiths worship service that is true to each traditions beliefs is nearly impossible, as the Catholics, Jews and LDS will never accept it as a replacement for their own denominations services.

pack What OGE stated is correct. Scouts Own is supposed to be an all inclusive, non denominational service giving reverence to what each scout holds to be that higher power associated with their particular faith. If all your camp services are just Christian only in its orientation and content then you do a great disservice to all those non Christian scouts in your units. Just because attendance is voluntary does not negate that disservice.

Look at it this way, if a boy decides to put a few coins in to contribute to a worthwhile cause instead of running to the commisary to buy a load of candy after the service then more power to him. Part of scout training is to teach them responsibility and making the proper decisions.

Schiff Read my post I input both the old and current numbers, current number was fine, the old number where I did the two different WB's, SM, CM, and Webelos Leader training etc, all that training is gone. I still have my old record cards so I guess I can update my current council training record. That always having the same id may be the case currently but not 10-20 years ago, same thing for SSN. Rant back at you, lol.

info I had my old number and input it, came back no record, of course that council has since been absorbed into another one.

I pulled up my record and got 3 pages of training classes, several with wrong dates, you just got to wonder about the councils inability to input correct information, lol. I used my venturing crew id #, I also tried inputing my name only but all my training prior to this council is gone?(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Barry Once you see and feel these new shirts you will quickly change your mind, they are cheaply made crap, pardon my french. I went back to my scout store and talked to the manager and he agreed with me, however he said the old shirts are out of production and these are all that will be available. Time for all crews to select their own uniforms and boycott these new poor excuses for a uniform shirt, sending National a very clear message.

Deacon Lance and BDPT Using your own philosophies about boy scouting then there should also be no women leaders allowed in the boy scouts or the OA, and yet there they are and getting more numerous every year. The boy scouts have changed the rules in these two instances why is the OA any different? Do you propose all women boy scout leaders and OA members should be removed? Doesn't this really all boil down to an all or nothing scenario?

Merlyn You are really something you attack Beavah and then run to OGE crying foul when he gives you a taste of your own medicine. What goes around comes around, you have taken what was an interesting thread about Taoists in scouting and corrupted it with your own personal agenda. Your tiresome unchanging rhetoric really does get irritating sometimes, if you want examples every one of your posts on this thread is off topic and irrelevant, as well as plainly false. I for one think having Taoists, Shintoists, and Buddists adds a much needed and a wonderful new dimension to Scoutings understanding and appreciation of different religious traditions. A scout is reverent.

Well Eagle 92 and jhankins After reading your posts it became obvious to me I was DE years before you guys, the good old NEI training days. Numbers, Money, Manipulation were the key words then, but it sounds like it may be a little better these days. Unfortunately it still sounds like the keywords I mentioned are still the focus today, just a little more sugar coated. The most troubling thing I read is that the corruption within higher level professional scouting is worse than ever and it is impacting our organization as a whole, loss of numbers,councils, camps, programs, poorer training, etc. I always likened being a DE to being like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills and trying to reach that unreachable star, still I do really miss parts of the job.

Merlyn It always surprises me that when someone else, as in this case, shoots down your argument and proves your premise to be false that you swiftly turn your energy to attacking that individual instead of providing evidence to support your statements. This was a thread about Tao boys joining boy scouts, the correct answer was given so instead you turn it into your usual atheist biggoted hogwash.

You know that boys will be boys and just because they are wearing a uniform doesn't mean their very nature is transformed miraculously. Yes they should be respectful, but any of us who have raised kids know how hard that is sometimes. A long boring train ride through the southwest desert you just know something is going to happen with a bunch of teenage boys on board.

BDPT If the shoe fits...... You are very welcome to your opinion as are we all. This is a discussion forum where different sides of an issue are presented and commented on, this is not arguing, it is debating.

scoutdad What a great post, very valid points and very well stated. As far as getting blasted by others just look at them as badges of honor, it means you made them think about the issue, even if they disagree with you. Welcome to the lions pit, lol.

Who here really can judge impartially what is or is not a true religion. All organized religious institutions were created by human beings who are imperfect and flawed and logically so is the all religious doctrine, which has already been pointed out in this thread. So before we judge someone to be an atheist or a member of an illegitimate faith maybe you need to do some reflection about your own faith and how you choose to live it.

You know an old mule gets pretty set in his ways and when he doesn't want to move sometimes he just needs a good ole slap on the ass to get him to see that stubborness is not to his benefit. Reminds me of some people.

Thats why I so am glad my crew is going for 1-2 days as visitors, they may not get to do all the activities, but they will at least get the feeling of the event. Better yet we are going to be staying at some nice little inns in Fredericksburg and Richmond, no hassles except for traffic to the jambo. By the way I think Kahuna offers some sound advice.

Some great idea have been given. You know one factor that might impact this process is in our high tech devices driven society I have noticed many youth have really lost the ability to use their imaginations to their full potential. You hand them some blank paper and they just look at you like you gave them a blackberry that was broken. So as an adult leader you need to help them tap into that potential, focus on the task of creating something from nothing, without the benefit of a computer device doing it for them. Food and rewards are definite factors in motivation.

Here is one possible solution, redesign the Eagle knot with a small Eagle head superimposed in the middle of the knot. This might make SM52 and some others happy, and maybe give the knot a little more significance, just my 2cents.

shortridge It is not as difficult as you make it out. The SM in this case wanted to hold firearms training at his scout meetings, at the church, the CO is within its rights to say no since it is their property and that is within their rights. Now if said SM was to hold those classes offsite, say at a gun club, then the CO, IMO, would probably be okay with it. I can support a church CO saying no guns on church property for obvious reasons.

John is correct if the CO/Church says no guns its no guns period. However I think you should have a heart to heart with the pastor, if he says he just doesnt want guns on church grounds fine, ask if it would be all right to hold those classes elsewhere, say a gun club. It might be the fairest solution for all concerned.

scoutnut I think that the word advancement is really misused in reference to Venturing, you don't become a Ranger Venturer or a Silver Venturer, you are always a venturer who may or may not have earned these awards, they do not give one venturer senority over another, and do not even need to be used in the crew program at all. Many crews are hobby oriented like reinactment groups, or career oriented, yes and not LFL either, medicine, search and rescue, because the flexibility of the venturing program enables a crew to be organized around ANY interest the group may have.(This message has been edited by BadenP)