MattR

Talking about what a leader is or does still seems a bit murky. I've seen scouts with lots of charisma (other scouts just want to be with them) but their only vision is to get scouts to follow them in a social setting. I've kept in touch with a few and they still haven't grown up. I tried hard to get them to use their talents for doing something besides screwing around but it didn't work. What I have also seen are people with a passion for something. Some scouts want to organize fun campouts or campfires. That leads to confidence, and people tend to follow. I have a scout in my troop that

Boy scouts is all about scouts learning to make decisions so never solve a problem a scout can and never make a decision a scout can. Also, set clear boundaries as to who makes what decisions and make sure everyone knows them and everyone defends those boundaries (scouts adults and parents). Separation. Trust goes both ways between scouts and adults. It takes time and is fragile.

Stosh, I like a lot of what you've written but your idea that leadership is bottom up and management is top down doesn't match what I see. I agree that bad management is top down. But leadership goes both ways. Sometimes a leader needs to tell a scout something he doesn't want to hear, such as "no, you can't go play, it's time to wash the dishes." There's give and take. The leader's responsibility is the group as a whole. Not only that but sometimes a vision has to grow from one person, usually the leader, to the whole group. Take the whole subject of boy led from the SM's view as leader and a

40 scouts. Suburban. Money is becoming more of an issue, but that's mostly because HA trips are going up in price. Lots of adults sign up but there's a natural culture to back off, as they're all busy. I have few adults that work with scouts. After what I've read here I should count my blessings. Two years ago I made a big push for boy led and am now seeing the results. As I said in another thread, our NSP is roughly March to June and we have two troop guides per patrol. They are at least 15. The process of selecting them is usually one of Jedi mind tricks. I usually walk up to a couple of

Too many labels. The term NSP seems to mean many different things. It would cool this whole discussion down if people would define what they mean by NSP. How long, who the leaders are, that kind of thing. My complaint with the one particular NSP was primarily with the idea that a scout couldn't leave until he was first class. That's dumb. We have something we call a NSP patrol that has two older scouts as PLs, only runs for about 4 months, and gives the new scouts a chance to figure out who their friends are and learn a bit about the huge change between cub scouts and boy scouts. The a

Word of advice from someone that's been there: understand the difference between what the committee does and the SM/ASMs. Sounds like you're getting sucked into doing the committee's job. Fundraising is not your domain, nor is rechartering, advancement records, collecting money for summer camp, .... I used to do all that and finally said no more.

Yep. 3 scouts - stay as a patrol. 2 scouts - their choice, but they are visiting the other patrol and the patrol must have room. 1 scout - find a patrol, they must have room, you're visiting.

Really? I've never heard of this before blw2 mentioned it. It's insanely wrong. Maybe this is how grumpy old SMs are created. I'm becoming one of them. The dark side, the ring. I can feel the pull.

The issue I see is all the PLs will likely be inexperienced. That's expected at that age. There are a few things I can think of that will help those PLs. First is train each entire patrol in what a patrol is, what it does, and what the leader does. It will be easier on the leader to have scouts that know what teamwork is. Also, if a PL is struggling someone may just help him, or maybe a scout with natural leadership just steps up. With everyone the same age and young, things might be very fluid, which can be good. Second, smaller patrols are easier for a new leader to manage than bigger pa

@@blw2, this is similar to Billie's problem. Ask the scouts. Talk about how important it is for new scouts to have a friend and how patrols must stay reasonably sized, then trust them. My guess is there are options once all the details come in. If the 10 scouts in the third patrol are active then that's a lot for a PL to handle. Ever cook for 10 on those cheap stoves? One option is split that patrol. Maybe they aren't all active. Or maybe some will be aging out soon. Or maybe some are busy with sports. Or maybe there will be more scouts, a lot more scouts, and a NSP is really only good for

Wow, I picked too busy of a time to put this topic up as I can't respond to everything, but I'm happy with it anyway. It's interesting that the idea seems so simple once you get it but it's so hard to describe. Anyway, that's why I like a simple, concise description. I've noticed that BSA training is always positive in that it always mentions what we should do but not what we shouldn't. Telling the adults to not make decisions for the scouts is more direct than let the scouts make their own decisions. @@JoeBob raised a very good point that is not getting much attention. I don't know fo

Thank you everyone for your responses so far. The reason I picked a thousand is not that I want all of them at once, I just want a way to replicate it. Ideally it would be to work with a patrol size at a time. Several of you said this is a hard problem, and I agree. Maybe that's why national can't figure it out either. Stosh, I suspect if this method were explained well it would also explain all the others (except for possibly uniform) as they all work together. And maybe that's a good point to make. Several of you have said it's also difficult because too many scouts just want a patch.

How would you teach the patrol method in less than a day to a thousand people? We know how poorly the patrol method is implemented. We know that the BSA does a lousy job explaining it. The same goes for districts and councils. Consequently, that leaves it to the volunteers. The target audience is a parent with a new scout. He knows there's something wrong with his troop. He is time poor (so no wading through arguments on this website). He likes the outdoors and appreciates what scouts can do for his son. His only experience with boy scouts is cub scouts. He wants succinct, useful infor

But here "The Patrol Method" is just another label. For those that haven't seen it, that phrase could just as well mean there are scouts that wear patrol leader patches. It's the same as boy led, everyone says their troop is boy led. It's just a label that has no meaning. Maybe the real problem is nowhere is there a description of what patrol method or boy led is not. Given the subjective nature, describing what something isn't is just as important as describing what it is. Since nobody can distinguish between what it is and what it isn't, obviously everyone is doing it the right way and n

Regarding babysitting, I've seen different sources. One is the parents taking care of the younger scouts, so the older scouts never had to. When they finally did they didn't know how. We used to have that problem. Second is, after 3 years of not taking care of anyone but yourself, the older scouts that are selfish at home figure that's the way to do it. I take to heart everyone's comments that taking care of other people has to start right away. I don't push that hard enough. Regarding not taking charge, interesting idea, that might just play out in a case I have. I have a patrol that last

Maybe what would help the adults the most would be to spend less time putting labels on it and more time explaining it. Leadership is primarily learned by doing it. A scout can't possibly lead while an adult is talking to him, much less telling him what to do. Even just being there will have an impact. Adults do have good experience to share with scouts that can help them learn, it's just best shared before or after the scout needs to use it. That all said, the biggest challenge I see is getting a scout to confront a problem with other scouts that are about the same age. Maybe

Maybe I have a different view of this, but when I read adult association I understand it as some form of teaching. In this case the skill is leadership and the style is of a master and apprentice. I don't know of any effective education process that consists of the master telling the apprentice "just watch me and you'll learn." Certainly that's part of it but there's more. The master creates problems the apprentice has to solve. Failure is part of the process. For PhD's and trade schools this is how it's done. I think Stosh's complaint is that the master won't back off enough to let the sc

I figured we were close. Yes, my examples are over the top. But I have a couple of clowns in my troop that have suggested such things just to see my SPL's response as well as mine. My SPL went berserk because he didn't recognize it was a joke and I just smiled. They know there's a boundary and as long as it's very clear what the boundary is the scouts are happy with it. Maybe the difference between leadership and management is whether the guy above respects the boundaries he has set for those below. If the boundaries are constantly changing then nobody below will take ownership, and then t

Stosh, I knew you weren't going to like this. I suspect we're really not too far apart. The idea of pushing decisions as low as possible is not mine, but can be seen in the military, agile computing, and in manufacturing, to name just a few. Groups make decisions within boundaries. If the boundaries don't make sense then they can try and change them, but those above do have final say. Wisdom from above is important in setting boundaries. If the scouts decide to have a lock in at a strip joint, does the SM have the right to say no? How about tubing on class 5 rapids? If your answer is n

I think you're preaching to the choir here. That's why we talk about what the relationship is between the different leaders. The original question is who's top dog, or ultimately in charge? For the boy's program that is the SM. End of that discussion. The better discussion is the relationship between the SM, all the PORs, and the scouts. In a nutshell, decisions should be pushed as low as possible, but along with that are boundaries on the decisions and the right to step in if those boundaries are crossed. If a PL says his patrol wants to do something different from the rest of the troop,

Note to self, ask ages and numbers before getting into all of this. It sounds like you have a young troop. Regarding NSP: "Once they get First Class, they move up." Ouch, may I suggest that's wrong. A scout could be in the NSP for years, unless every meeting is advancement. Scouting is not about advancement, blah blah blah. We keep new scouts together for about four months. The goal is to get them ready to be in a patrol. They learn to listen to older scouts and learn to help on campouts. No more whiny I have to go to dad, or mom to solve my problem. The NSP is the transition from cub

I'm wondering if you're solving the wrong problems. The best way to get the scouts to buy in to any change of patrols is for them to decide. If their decisions are based on greed then there will be problems. If the scouts are truly looking out for everyone in the troop then they will come up with something better than you. I would trust them, with some reasonable discussions. You need to set boundaries and then let them go. You also mention getting older scouts to step up and help out. Again, this gets back to scouts looking out for everyone in the troop. That might be the underlying p

I think a better question is what is the relationship between the various leaders in a troop.

There are different reasons why scouts are unhappy and leave. If it's ever a power struggle with dad I've never been able to come up with anything that will bring the scout back, and yes, those scouts can really bring things down. At the same time, plenty of other scouts that have been stagnating and not really getting anywhere are the easiest to turn around. For them, it's not that they don't like scouts, it's more that they haven't figured it out yet. Another issue is how much time do you have to spend with a scout. I'll try with any scout but after 3 years of getting nowhere it's time to cu

Maybe I'm just slow and stupid but none of the training I've seen clicked with me. This forum, and all the arguments and discussions, has been worth much more. The training seems to assume you have a working unit so you have an example to reference. Just for fun, switch the term boy led with duck, and assume you've never seen a duck before. "Well, an important method to a troop is having a duck." "What's a duck?" "Everyone knows what a duck is. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck." "Sure, I've heard the term duck, but what would it look like if it were in my