MattR

Sanders, that's really great that you want to do a good job. As others have said, the SPL handbook is a good place to start.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you are responsible for the calendar. That's a big part of what the PLC meetings are about. You shouldn't just decide what it is but help the PLC decide. I'd suggest you talk to your SM about what servant leadership means. With that in mind, focus on qwazse's question of what do you want to do? What does the rest of the PLC want to do? What would make your troop a better troop? More fun? New skills? More just hanging out with friends? More service? More scouts?

If the previous SPLs have not done much then my guess is your troop is just cruising along and likely doing the same old thing over and over. One thing that's really hard for scouts to do is understand that they can do something different. One thing you should think about is doing a review of your previous calendar. Ask the PLC what they really liked, what they'd like to do more of, what they didn't like. It would be great if the PL did this with his patrol as well.

So, to answer your original question, the first meetings of the PLC should be about figuring out what the calendar will be. Often that's a long meeting or even a campout. Once you have your calendar figured out then each PLC meeting is figuring out the details.

Good luck and let us know how it works out, both good and bad.

A cub scout, a boy scout, and a venture scout. You should have lots of questions.

Welcome.

The original statement was that an EBOR would not be scheduled without a SM reference letter.

Yeah, I see your point.

It would add to the BOR if the SM wanted to write it, but if it's required then it might not add anything positive, so pushing it is a mistake.

I am curious about how large some of your troops are.  Our troop is on the small side with about 20-25 Scouts in it and it's almost a given that our Scouts can become an Eagle Scout if they want that to happen.  Not all do but when you have a smaller troop, everyone has a fair chance to get all the rank requirements done because when you go on outings, there are ample opportunities.  And, there are plenty of opportunities for leadership too.  ....

Hi @CA Scout Mom. You seem to be implying that larger troops have fewer opportunities for leadership. That certainly isn't the case in my troop and probably not most. I currently have about 45 scouts and have been as high as 70. As the troop grows the number of patrols grow and the number of PORs grow. It is more closely related to the number of patrols. There are also PORs outside of the troop, such as Den Chiefs. The 4-6% rate of Eagles is some mythical number as far as I can tell. It might include any boy that has ever been in any scout program. So the tiger cub that decided he was not interested in scouts and dropped could be part of that number. Anyway, I once made a rough guess of the percentage of scouts who filled out an app to join my troop and eventually got Eagle there and it was in the high 30s.

But, I think the point that Mashmaster is making is that advancement is not the sole purpose of scouting. I think a better indication of how good a troop is is the number of scouts that stick around until they're 18. That's just a metric and so please take it with a grain of salt.

I'm betting that's a district practice, not a council one.  I've seen quite a few backwards districts, but usually when it gets to a council level things are more per BSA GTA direction.  But then again, I'm in a very large council.  Some councils are the size of some of our districts.  

 

As for the practice, it's just wrong and a waster of time.  The SM has signed the eagle project and the eagle application.  If the SM won't sign those, there is a well written process to pursue rank under disputed circumstances.  Requiring a SM reference letter is just a weak, ill-defined, dead-end, non-BSA process.  Did I mention wrong?  

I don't know about calling it wrong. I can see redundant, not to mention extra work for the SM And yet every time I sign off I think about a scouts pros and cons. I've already thought about the basics of a letter of recommendation. Those insights would always be positive (or else the SM would not have signed the app) so it could help the BOR get to know the scout.

But then again, our EBORs are fairly easy going, compared to the extremes I've heard about here.

Mashmaster, I can relate. I'm stepping down as SM and I told my committee I will stick around but the one thing I refuse to do anymore is sign off on anything. If a scout wants to learn a skill then I'll bend over backwards to help him out (or more likely his patrol). When it comes time to getting it signed off, that's for someone else. No eagle projects, no PORs, no rank requirements. Maybe MBs.

After having talked to a lot of parents it's clear there's a wide range of views on advancement from "make them earn it" to "my son needs this now." I think part of the solution is to do better training up front, for the parents. Advancement is a method, it is not the aim ....

I wrote up the aims and methods in much more detail than what is found at BSA and I also added some details about how my troop does things and the people in my troop that have read it have said things along the lines of oh, I never knew that. They honestly did think Eagle is the only purpose and they didn't understand the point of all the campouts. I think it's Eagledad that said he spends as much time teaching the adults as the scouts. It's hard to fit it in but most parents are receptive. Not all, but maybe you can reduce some of the pain.

Having had the pleasure of sitting on quite a few Eagle boards, I sometimes have wished we could on occasion publish letters with the candidate or writer's  identification. ... I suspect a really inspiring book could be compiled, or likely a number of them over time.

I think you can, after a bit of work. I just sat in on an EBOR and the scout asked if he could read the recommendations. The answer was no, but if he really wanted to read them then he just had to ask the people that wrote them to send him a copy. Once he has it, he can do with it as he pleases, including giving it to anyone.

I marked @@SSF's reply as the best, and an honorable mention to @@The Latin Scot. Essentially, they are relatively new here and I'm more interested in what they have to say. For all of you that have 1000's of posts, asking you about this forum is like asking an alcoholic about the benefits of wine - no new information to be gained.

I'd certainly like to see more new people here. I really like scouts. I think it's more important to encourage people to join us than hash out every detail. It seems like there are not many people posting the majority of the posts. Furthermore, the bulk of the posts are off in the weeds. It doesn't seem that those posts are encouraging anyone to stick around.

@@Sentinel947 started a good-news thread and while some of you mentioned that all the feel good stuff doesn't add anything, I think it does. Maybe different people respond differently but knowing scouting works is a lot more encouraging, especially to the newcomers, than knowing where all the problems are.

I agree that there are multiple ways to solve problems and rooting out those methods do a lot of good but it sure would be nice to see a bit more acceptance of other people's approaches. How about a FAQ that includes a section for any of the usual arguments?

However, it seems a lot of you are okay with the threads that go on and on. I won't get in your way.

I got back from a great campout this weekend. The scouts came up with a mash up of hide and seek with a first aid competition - once you find the hidden scout you had to render first aid. Then we brought out half a dozen axes of various sizes and the scouts had a bunch of fun splitting a lot of wood. With that wood there was a fire building competition and then everyone cooked over the resulting fires. All this just so we could pack up quickly and get back for any Easter activities.

At the parking lot when we got back there was a mom of a scout that had joined just a few months ago that a few adults were talking to. Her son did a great job at everything and was all smiles. So we told the mom. She was so happy. Her first language is not English but her broken English, smiles and thank yous were more than enough to convey her message. The other adults left and I just hung around and kept talking, more to be polite than anything else. The mom said the thanks were from the bottom of her heart. She was getting a bit emotional. She finally told me that her husband had passed away several years ago and she knew her son needed more men in his life. That explained everything. It also left me a bit speechless and, I don't know, maybe just content. In some tiny little way we helped out and made the world a better place. It was good. It wasn't great. It wasn't going to make the news. It obviously wasn't bad. It was good.

I look back at the past week or so on this forum, with all the discussions about Wood Badge, lack of volunteers, screwed up units, and all the other sources of angst, and I just wonder why there's such a big disconnect between what I see and what I read here. It's not that my troop doesn't have problems, it certainly does. But rarely does the drama in my troop ever get close to what I see on this forum. I'm not trying to point fingers because I'm just as guilty as everyone else, but scouting is supposed to be some sort of big camp fire where people can get away from the daily grind, drama, and confrontation. Where helpful and friendly are as important as solving a problem. For this mom and me it is. I'm not so sure about this forum.

Is this forum really helping anyone?

I'm empathetic to Sentinel. There's no doubt that because I'm now the old codger people are more willing to listen to what I have to say. Every new leader has to go through some of this but I could see it being worse for someone young. Some parent telling Sentinel that since he doesn't have kids he doesn't know what he's talking about is likely.

But, as Skip says, the old codger being replaced can do a lot to smooth things out. When I stepped up I had to fight every battle on my own. When I'm replaced I'm going to let everyone know that the new guy only wants to hear 4 words from anyone - how can I help. I'm going to be there and back him up. There's a learning curve to getting comfortable and confident with running a scout troop. Once he has that the new SM will do fine.

Sentinel, I think you'd do fine as well. It might take a bit longer than someone older but not that much. Part of the respect you're talking about is your own confidence in talking to parents about their kids. Everyone has to learn that. Either telling a parent their son can do more than the parent believes or less than the parent wants creates conflict with the parent and that's a skill to learn.

While you said you had credibility that no other parent could have, is it possible that your credibility didn't come from your age so much as that you cared about the scouts and you knew how to help them? If you listen to them, let them know when they do a good or bad job and help them out, then you will gain their trust. I doubt if that will change, even as you get older.

Now, weather you have the energy to continue this, or just need a break is a different issue.

Best of luck on your decision.

Maybe I'm just naive, but I just don't see getting sued over sexual abuse as the only reason to get sued. You're taking someone's child on a campout. All sorts of things can go wrong. Cooking bacon, climbing on rocks, throwing rocks, campfires, weather, bears, alligators, the list goes on. Not only that but we're encouraging them to do things on their own.

Now, how many scouts have died in the past 10 years? How many have been sexually molested? How many scouters have sued, been sent to jail, or for some other reason been caught up in the legal system over these tragedies? Is the probability higher or lower than being hit by lightning above timberline?

This is a big boogie man. People don't volunteer because they don't want to spend their time with children. There are lots of reasons but the folks that say they don't want to be sued are the same people that shouldn't be working with scouts anyway because they'll never let the scouts do anything fun.

Skip, the comment section at the bottom of any media website is a place for people to vent. I stay away from them like the plague.

I assume you have something like 2 deep leadership. It's possible people don't understand it. More likely is that it's an excuse. Sure there's a risk. Life is a risk. I also think the "I don't want to fill out paperwork" excuse is pure nonsense. I have a background check done for the BSA and also my CO. It takes all of 5 minutes to fill out the paperwork.

Not having time is certainly an issue here. My guess is that what you're seeing in your unit is more common than anything you're reading in the comment section. I could see how getting adults to volunteer where they don't have kids in the program is a challenge. We (the US) probably do that worse than you (UK).

If nobody knows then nobody should complain that it's in the wrong place.

Honestly, your son received an award so encourage him to enjoy it. If someone can prove he's wearing it incorrectly then fix it. Either way, congratulations.

I think two very different but important problems are being discussed here. @@Eagledad mentions that there are a lot of units that have no problem-solving skills and so they just tear themselves apart. @@Col. Flagg is saying that a better description of the program is needed. Both of these points are very valid. Both of these skills are needed in any challenging environment; how to solve problems and an understanding of the underlying domain.

Granted, if you have a troop with a bunch of engineers that solve problems all day professionally then the WB approach is not such a big gain. But there are plenty of units out there that are not run with scouters already having these skills. Some of the things I hear about how units are soap opera drama shows is truly amazing. So I agree with Eagledad's view that this type of training would help many units. But it's not enough. While the BSA assumes their SM specific training covers the underlying domain, it's the equivalent of "Teach Yourself Java in 21 minutes."

I finished the first 3 days of Wood Badge last weekend.  I went into this experience with an open mind.  I left a distrusting skeptic.   I didn't know leadership skills would be taught thru manipulation and deception.  The Game of Life and debriefing were less than satisfactory.  The facilitator brazenly said "the best part about Wood Badge is being able to come back as staff and do this to other people".  I haven't started to write my vision or ticket.  I am not sure I'm going back.

 

I might be a bear.

Hi @@just a scout mom. Welcome to the forum.

Since you've already paid for the course, you did the first part and you're not sure you want to go back, and you think the win all you can game was really obnoxious, we share a lot in common. That was my feeling as well after having gone to the first half. BTW, that game was supposed to make you upset. Either you watched in disgust or you got caught red handed acting in a rather unscout like manner.

Despite what everyone else has said (and I do agree with quite a bit of it) there were some benefits for me. The syllabus was disappointing but the enthusiasm from the staff and the people in my patrol was very encouraging. We're still in touch. We still encourage each other. It's just knowing there are people out there that want to improve things and not just do the bare minimum that gave me a lot of confidence that what I wanted to do was worth reaching for.

I'd say stick with it. Try making lemonade from lemons.

Very good points by all, regarding the lack of patrol method.

But ... go back and read the bottom line of the last bunch of posts (other than Skip's)  It's kind of like a dysfunctional patrol. Everyone knows why it won't work but nobody seems to believe it will work.

I certainly don't have an answer but you guys are in a rut. What would you do if your PLC sounded this negative?

You have an advantage over a new PL in that you have a lot of experience. And maybe that's also a disadvantage. Didn't someone say it's harder to change the older scouts because they're set in their ways? So what's that mean if you're, like, older than dirt?

One thing you have going for you is you have the same passion as a new PL. You believe in scouts. If you had a new PL or a new parent come and ask for help you'd get all excited. Be that.

Maybe you guys have answers but you just don't see them yet.

So, think young. Be positive. Believe in it. Help each other out. Have fun.

... first with the rule that the honest SM can block awarding the MB if he determines it could not, in fact, have been earned...

Tell us more. It's always a struggle.

BTW, @@SSScout, Fortran is still very much used and has been continually updated. It's widely used in scientific computing, especially on big machines (roughly 1M cores, 10's to 100's of Teraflops, Megawatts of power.)  Granted, there are no more card decks.

The truth is, to make a program as large as and like BSA to work, you are going to have to have some ambiguity in place and trust that the volunteers will do it correctly. Will there be abuses of that trust? Yes, we talk about it all the time on this board.

 

But the alternative is generate reams of rules, regulations, requirements, and other beauracracy on top of what we already have. The amount of and irritation from national about these kinds of things is already a topic on this board, also. Imagine if they had to right everything to eliminate all the ambiguity in the program? Look what it did for MB requirements and how we already complain about that.

 

So, I think it is just something we are going to have to tolerate and understand that not everyone will agree on what that means.

I don't think tolerating lousy training is so great, mainly because we've been doing that and it's not working. At the same time, scoring something that's subjective will just encourage people to game the system. So I understand where you're coming from, I just don't like it. But maybe there's another way to look at this.

For any change there needs to be some passion before any rules or guidelines. Passion leads to understanding. Understanding leads to being able to use the guidelines. Look at JTE. We gots rules. What we don't have is an understanding of the underlying ideas that, to be honest, are very subjective. My guess is that JTE has not budged many units to better usage of the methods of scouting. There is just no way to create any understanding in this situation with rules and guidelines. Telling someone that they have to have regular PLC meetings might just result in time for the PLC to regularly hang together and watch stupid youtube videos.

Back to passion. Passion is what makes the world go around. In scouts it's the passionate scouter that will fix a unit. But it also has a dark side. Look at this forum. People on this forum bleed green because they care. They care so much that it seems that they can take any silly little thing and turn it into an argument. This forum is not unique. I've seen lots of scouters quit in anger. Probably a lot that used to be on this forum as well. This passion has also driven parents with no experience in scouting away from scouts.

This dark side, in my opinion, is one reason why the documentation is so bad. Look at advancement and religious principles. Lots of passion there so we end up with very lawyerish documents. At the same time things like the patrol method are just flat out ignored because, well, there are different ways to do it so why pick one. Pick them all by not describing anything. It's kind of like just letting the scouts do what they want. Some guidance is needed.

Here's my idea. Scouters really enjoy telling stories. Stories are also a great way to illustrate ideas. Start with the aims and methods and create a set of ideas that cover them. For each idea write a bunch of stories that illustrate different aspects of that idea. If there are different ways of doing things, or different challenges based on the size of the troop or what it's like then put in more stories. An important idea is that the stories need to be real. If something worked then go ahead and put it in. But hunches are best left out. Think of it as a set of case studies in scouting, only a lot more fun. In the process of having fun while reading the stories, some scouters might learn a few things, and hopefully gain some passion of their own. Put the important stuff up front and then it's okay to slowly read it.

If this all sounds too far fetched then consider the Bible. While there are rules and guidelines there are a lot more stories. It turns out there are no simple rules or guidelines for how to create a community but there are many stories describing how to do it. Communities can be age based or mixed

But that's just my opinion.

and recently, I really liked what Clarke Green had to say on this topic of recruiting

http://scoutmastercg.com/scoutmaster-podcast-342-recruiting-scouts/

In a nutshell, to save you 10 minutes, what the guy said was ask your scouts and the parents of your scouts to talk to their friends and invite them on a campout. Skip the webelos, skip the pamphlets, skip the special meetings, skip all the meetings for that matter, skip the email. It's all about getting friends to go camping. It doesn't need to be anything special. Skip the paperwork, too. My take is it's more about making it personal and working with smaller numbers than shotgunning everyone. People get enough advertising that they just tune it out.

We do something similar. We invite webelos to camp with us. We're going to try something different this year. We're going to partner with some webelos dens and invite them to join us once a month starting this summer.

Since you're the district guy this gets harder. But it sounds like rather than selling scouts to random parents it would be best to sell this to units.

Now, for a bit of tough love. If you had some webelos visit and none of them joined then it might be time for some reflection. When my son joined boy scouts it was obvious where he wanted to go. It was the one troop that didn't put on anything special, but treated him special. He walked in the door and the SPL grabbed him and took him off and put him in a patrol. He joined the activities for the meeting and I finally got to see him again at the end. Ever since then I strongly encourage the scouts to treat visitors as special. When you're 10 years old visiting a troop with 11 to 17 year olds it can be intimidating. It has to be more than fun. It also has to be reassuring that you will fit in. As for parents, we also make sure there are plenty of parents in the troop that stop by and say high, answer questions, ask about the boys and what they're looking for. Parents want to know about how we run our troop and we will talk about it. We won't push it but if they ask we'll talk.

I hope this helps.

Sounds to me like the real issue is that this scout is not enjoying scouts. My guess is that a lack of fun with friends is the issue, not advancement.

Phrogger, does he have friends in the troop? Just my opinion but finding something fun to do with other scouts should be the focus. Friendships are important.. Are there other scouts roughly his age in the troop? Does he do anything with them? If the older scouts are doing cooking MB, what is the program for the younger scouts? If there's really no program for the younger scouts then I can see him being bored.

Just a thought, but if there are other young scouts that are bored, and there is not much for them while the older scouts are doing camping, why not get them together and have them pick one MB that they'd like to do. Take your son to the scout store and show him the rack of MB books. Flip through them and show him the pictures and see if he gets excited about them. Have him pick 3 or 4. Get the scouts together and have them pick one. Help your son make the call to the MB counselor. That gives your son some ownership, helps create a fun activity between the boys (somewhat similar to cubs), and, most importantly, might create some friendships.

If he has friends then he'll likely get more interested in camping.

If the issue is burnout then maybe we should ask that question. In all honesty, adding or subtracting a year of cub scouts will not make much difference in a 5 year cub program plus a 7 year boy scout program.

How about each pack make a season they do cub scouts? Limit it to 6 months a year total. I tell scouts to take the 3 months off for a sport, or robotics, or band. They usually come back eager.

Another idea mentioned above is meet less often.

At the cub level I don't see an issue with taking a season off. At the boy scout level friendships become more important so I can see trying to have a longer season, but maybe having a short off season isn't such a bad idea. Boy scouts get burned out as well and this push to have campouts every month might be detrimental, given the duration of the program.

My plc just set up a discord server and it is working out great. I'm not sure why but they communicate more when there's an app involved. It supports being goofy and limits it because they can only type so much.

As for making a huge scout server the idea sounds cool. Being able to make new friends in far away places is what ham radio is all about. You're just trying it with different technology. But I'm wondering about the details. With 100k users it might be hard to keep a thought in focus. Once in a while I watch this giraffe in NY and there's a stream of messages flowing on that I can't imagine anyone being able to comprehend. There's also the issue of people using it for reasons you don't want - spammers, trolls, phishing, etc. I think it can be solved but it is a big deal and it needs to be solved.

How about this: start small and grow it. Set it up, go to round table, announce it to the troops in your district. Let it grow. See what the problems are and fix them. Find other districts. Repeat. Picking districts far away from you could be a fun way to find out about new places to go on high adventure trips.

I'd be interested in knowing how it goes.

I haven't read it. Just doing a good turn today.

He turned this speech into a book:

by William H McRaven

https://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Bed-Little-Things/dp/1478969679

From what little I know, the advancement part sounds similar to girl scouts. It's mostly by age. I wouldn't like it either. I can imagine that submitting a 6" binder, and then wondering whether 4 years of work is going to be accepted or not is a lot worse than what we complain about.

Is leadership among the kids, within the unit, part of the program? I guess what I'm asking is there something similar to the patrol method? Or is that what you are adding because you have the flexibility?