MattR

Deaf scouter, these all get down to who solves what problems. Yet one of the main points of scouting is to teach scouts to solve problems. That leaves us with the idea of don't waste a problem that could be a learning experience. So, while we say let them fail, what we really mean is don't steal the opportunity for them to learn. It will be much easier dealing with type A parents if you use the latter words.

There are different types of problems.

The first is a fairly innocuous one where a scout makes a mistake and the impact is only on himself and it's not that big a deal. Eg: a scout forgets to bring eating utensils or Friday night dinner for himself. The adult response to this should be "bummer!" Or even "why not go ask your patrol members for some help." The worst thing that can happen is that he gets hungry. The best is that he learns not to do that again and also his patrol might learn to look out for each other. It's a good trade off.

Next, a scout forgets his sleeping bag and it's a winter campout. Depending on your definition of winter camping this could be a very serious problem. Here the trade off between the worst and the best that can happen leans a lot more towards the worst. I wouldn't let him go to sleep without enough insulation around him but I'd encourage him to ask around before I helped him out.

These cases are easy to figure out because the impact of a scout's problem is on himself. The scenarios that cause the most angst is when a scout does something that impacts other scouts. Eg, a scout forgets to buy lunch for his patrol. If hypothermia weren't an issue I'd say Bummer, start scrounging, maybe we have some oatmeal for you. The benefit here is that possibly there's an opportunity for a patrol to learn about better communication. "You said you were going to buy lunch." "I never said that!" If the adults get involved in this one then the scouts miss an opportunity.

Next, some scouts are treating some other scouts poorly. The parents want to jump right in and remove some scouts from the troop or at least change all the patrols around to "split up those bad kids." The opportunity is for scouts to learn how to bring up tough issues. Here's where "they need to learn how to fail on their own" probably doesn't convey the right thing and parents will go ballistic. Rather, the adults need to get the scouts to talk in a respectful manner about real problems. I think this type of problem is getting harder to deal with than it used to be just because adults are not allowing the scouts to deal with people problems. I have the most upset parents over things like this and also the most growth with scouts once they learn to find their voice.

Next, some "scout leader" drops the ball and the rest of the patrol, or even the troop, is sitting around with nothing to do. Again, adults will want to jump in and solve the problem, fire the scout leader, or who knows what. Now we're getting closer to boy-led issues. If the scouts don't know how to solve other types of problems then they won't know how to solve problems related to leadership. They need to talk, they need to plan, they need to be able to adapt, and they need to learn how to do all of this while they're doing it. This is where the rubber hits the road with respect to living the ideals of scouting. It's easy to say you're cheerful, but not when someone else forgot lunch.

Okay, I replaced two sections

Number of scouts in patrol at end of 6 months. (25pts): (Best: have 6-8 active scouts, Better: 5 active scouts, Good: 4 active scouts. The PLC defines what an active scout is.

Treasurer: (25 pts) The patrol has a treasurer. Good: The patrol treasurer ensurers that expenses are handled for at least 50% of the campouts. Better: The patrol treasurer ensurers that expenses are handled for at least 80% of the campouts. Best: Same as Better but there is also a budget that has been approved within the first month.

Eagle94-A1, I've had a few patrols earn the national honor award. I like it but it doesn't do that strong of a job of encouraging the patrol to take care of its members or develop leadership, One patrol leader decided to do it and he just drove the whole process. When he was done it was over and they went back to where they had been. They did stuff as a patrol but they didn't share any of the responsibility.

Thanks blw2 and NJ.

The point of the patrol size is to get the patrols to take on some responsibility to help recruit scouts. I agree it is sometimes out of the scout's control.

I would not count a scout that has only gone on one campout in 6 months as active. What I'm trying to get at is that there are 6-8 scouts that are interested in scouts. We seem to have one or two scouts every year that are officially on the books but not the least bit interested and it just screws things up. Maybe a better way is to let each troop define what active means and leave it at that.

About the budget, good point NJ. I just want a patrol that worked hard to get the recognition they want. Some want pizza parties, some want new gear. As for having a patrol treasurer and they deal with their own money, I like it! Obviously I didn't think of that, so thanks.

Here's my idea for Patrol JTE. I'm sticking with the Troop JTE Bronze, Silver, and Gold. My apologies. The scoring is a bit confusing but it's similar to the Troop JTE and not worth the words to explain it.

Please be constructive. I'm going to have my patrols do this.

Patrol JTE: done over six months, (twice within the year for Troop JTE)

Number of scouts in patrol at end of 6 months. (25pts): (Best: have 6-8 active scouts, Better: 5 active scouts, Good: 4 active scouts. An active scout is one that has gone on at least one campout.

Camping (250pts)

-Long term camping: same as troop JTE (100pts)

-Short term camping: same as troop JTE, with the addition that a minimum of campouts are by patrol (cooking and main event) (80%: Best, 65%: Better, 50%: Good) (100pts)

-Challenge campouts: A percentage of campouts are a challenge: backpacking, hiking, snow, water, desert …. (Best: 50%, Better: 30%, Good: at least one) (50pts)

Service: (125pts) Have at least half your patrol participate in a number of service projects that include:

-Your community (25pts per project, 75pts max)

-A pack (at least one) (25pts)

-The CO (at least one) (25pts)

Advancement: (100pts) Each scout decides what he wants to accomplish for advancement during the six months. Score based on the patrol teaching 1^st class skills, MBs being done individually or groups within the patrol.

-Good: at least half the scouts meet their goals.

-Better: 2/3 of the scouts meet goals and half the 1^st class skills taught within the patrol.

-Best: 80% of scouts meet goals, all 1^st class skills taught within the patrol, at least half the MBs earned individually or by a group within the patrol (not at MB fair))

Patrol Meetings: (100pts) Have a plan for each patrol meeting that has been reviewed by the PLC at least a week before the meeting.

-Best: 80% of meetings run this way

-Better: 50%

-Good: 25%.

Patrol Development: (100pts)

-Everyone has a job: (50pts) For every patrol based campout every scout has a designated job and is trained to do it or is trained while doing it. At least half the jobs will give a scout an opportunity to lead his patrol. (Best: 80% of campouts, Better: 60% of campouts, Good: 50% of campouts)

-Reviews: (25pts) After every patrol event the patrol gets together and reviews the event and also how the patrol worked together. (Best: 80% of events, Better: 60% of events, Good: 50% of events)

-The APL acts as PL for at least one campout and all meetings related to that campout and has taken a troop level patrol leader training (25pts)

Budget: (25 pts) The PLC and troop treasurer decide awards for each patrol for accomplishing overall Gold, Silver, or Bronze. This is done within the first month.

Scoring:

For each category: Best: earns all the points, Better: half , Good: quarter

Overall: Gold: earn 365 pts, Silver: earn 185 pts : Bronze: 100 pts. (out of 725 possible)

You don't think everyone doesn't already tell them what's about to happen? Tell them all you want, make charts and graphs and all sorts of wonderful aides, and it won't make a difference. A lot of scouts have to learn the hard way. This is likely the first time they've ever had to figure out a schedule so they really don't understand what it means to fall behind. Think of it this way, once they go through this they will better understand the next time, which will likely be much more expensive if they're late.

The best quote I heard related to this: A project becomes months or even years late one day at a time.

Hmmm, all I knew was our patrols were week. I had no idea how to change that or what it might look like. The adults were happy doing a lot for the boys so it didn't help. The SM handbook was a complete bust. My commissioner was of no help either. Not that he was bad, just that he didn't know. Interestingly enough, there were two adults that also wanted to make the patrols stronger, but they didn't know how to say that. Simply put, we were all clueless.

@@blw2, I might have been in the same place as you. My patrols would cook on their own, but that was it. I think the biggest challenge is convincing the scouts they can do more on their own. Giving them fewer choices seems to help. Multiple choice is much easier than free form. Another challenge that seems to be getting harder is separating the boys that want a challenge from the naysayers. One scout can easily convince 5 sitting on the fence that the challenge is too hard. That's my frustration now.

@blw2: Yep. The training is fine as an introduction for someone that knows nothing about scouts. It would be much better if there was a follow on course related to the things you mention. Focusing on the patrol method for a whole day and how to transform a troop to using it would be great. That's what I was looking for and never found it. Philmont might have something useful but that's not practical.

"A snow camping experience" is the question.... and I can think of all sorts of extreme weather, different, and situations with lots of variety that are absolutely NOT snow experience in any way.....

My point was that if there's enough snow to go snow shoeing then there's enough snow to call it snow camping and too much for most scouts to do anything else on that list. So I'd say their definition of snow camping is that there's enough to need snow shoes when you go for a hike.

I don't think they're interested in extreme weather as they just want scouts to try something other than what they're used to. They picked water, snow, biking, and mountains. Camp and enjoy one of those. That's the choice.

This is a requirement where the scouts have to do something as opposed to describe, explain, or discuss. I like it.

This is why I preferred the space ship, wind up the prop, let it fly, watch it crash, rebuild it, and repeat event. It was all for the boys and they enjoyed it because they got to do it over and over and over. It was pure fun.

The pinewood derby will always bring out the worst in adults. I saw it nearly 20 years ago with parents using CNC machines to hollow out the wheels so I don't think it has changed. Fortunately it's just the pinewood derby. It sort of reminded me of the win all you can game at wood badge.

It's all relative. The goal is to try something different.

Look at the list and notice that you have to do two things and, if you don't have a mountain nearby, nothing else matches going snow shoeing or skiing. The list really is do one of go on the water, go biking, go in the mountains, or go in the snow.

I think the Constitution is beautifully written. It's all cursive.

I write in cursive because it's easier on my hands. Printing is carpal tunnel just waiting to happen with my hand going up and down so much. It is slower and requires more concentration, but it helps me think before I write.

Hi @@Ryota,

The morse code idea is clever.

Do you have a set of English words? Lemonade I know, Pertolangan I can't even guess.

sorry, but no. I guess that's what the :'s are for. Good luck.

... when a father, who knew he was going to die from ALS, asked that our troop be a part of his memorial service.

... when a scout told me that although he loved his father very much, he was very thankful for the adults in the troop.

... when my son, at age 20, told me "now I get it" (so jjlash, you were doing well to get a response at 17)

... when I see scouts having honest, pure, fun, without a care in the world.

... when a parent told me he has two sons, one in scouts and one not, and the one in scouts is a much more well rounded person.

... when I see an older scout telling stories or leading games or teaching skills to younger scouts that look up to him in awe.

... when a friend, after he saw the scouts working on an eagle project for his church, came up to me and said he was going to put his son in scouts.

... when a scout does something completely selfless because it was the right thing to do, without any prompting.

... when a scout comes up to me a few years after he leaves the troop and says hi and is polite about reminding me what his name is.

... most Saturday nights on campouts, after everyone is asleep and I walk around enjoying the stars above and the warmth inside, knowing that I had some small part to do with a good campout.

Yeah, it's all cheesy stuff. And I can't explain to anyone why it's important. All I know is that if I just keep plugging away someone will eventually do something good and I'll be all warm and sappy again.

In a situation like this where everything is getting out of hand and plans are failing left and right, stand back and remember you're not getting paid for this and it's all about the scouts. So, ignore the adults, what do the scouts need? As others have said, make it simple and put some really loud cheer or something in there to make it fun. In this case they should be recognized for completing cub scouts and joining a troop, and they should have fun doing it. They don't care about the content of the ceremony, only that there is one.

I've gotten to the point that adults not helping out or doing what they said they'd do is just part of the job. The longer term issue is dealing with some of these adults in the future. I didn't quite follow who said what to whom but it sounds like there are big egos involved. That will grind you down over time. Take care of yourself and focus on the good moments, like when a scout comes up to you and says thank you.

Have you tried, because we have been doing this for 20 years. You might not get the activity you asked for, but the camp usually tries to be accommodating. 

 

Barry

Unfortunately, I have. I've asked for time for patrols and my troop at several camps. We've brought our own climbing gear only to be told we can't use it on camp property. Last year we went to a camp with what I thought was the best staff I've ever seen. The camp director didn't understand why I wanted to find time for patrols but when I talked to the camp counselors they thought it was great. They are told they must complete MBs but they'd much rather make MBs a by product of having fun.

This camp does, however, have a separate camp that is patrol based and everything, including MBs is done by patrol. I'd like to go there in 2018.

Troops don't realize how much independence they have at summer camp. You can use their facilities to do just about any troop program you can dream.

I agree with most things you say except for this. At least at the camps I've been at most resources a fun activity might include are booked for merit badges. Rock climbing, shooting, anything on the water.  Another problem is camps are getting away from letting scouts schedule their own merit badges. You tell them what merit badges you want and they tell you your schedule. So if you want your troop, or patrol better yet, free in the afternoons it's just luck of the draw.

Next year we're going to a camp on a big lake that is all about water. The following week we're going backpacking. So, MBs only if the scouts want them along the way.

I thought this was nice.

http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Refugee-youths-find-safe-haven-in-Boy-Scouts-of-America-409302415.html

Yah, if yeh think an 8-year-old is actually seekin' surgery without that notion bein' strongly encouraged by adults in his or her life, you're out of your mind.

 Agreed

I need more coffee, life is too short to focus on the wrong things.

Agreed. As to your math, NJ is right, don't design planes. But as to a metaphor describing people it's okay. Maybe a better version is everyone's glass is half full. Nobody's is full, nobody's is empty, but everyone's is half full. Look for the goodness and accept the problems.

Not really related, but remember when Clinton, the Bill, said "It's the economy, stupid." Again, the BSA is pulled off its message. Well, I guess we don't know what its message is so any incident will do just that.

The idea of adding a 4th level, the patrol, is good. Grade each patrol and the troop score is based on that.

The patrol method seems to hinge on whether the scouts look out for each other. I just don't know how to score that. Asking the patrols to come up with their own calendars seems to be the default but if they don't much care about the others, or just don't have much enthusiasm on their own, their calendars will be junk and then bad things happen. Anything that would help with this would be worth a lot. It doesn't need to be JTE-like.

Some random thoughts, because the family is around:

What about something to encourage feedback within the patrol? Not sure how but it seems boys just stew over problems rather than bring them out. This might not be the place to teach it, but if there were a simple metric it might be useful to teach the scouts and the adults that the scouts can and should solve their problems rather than the adults.

How about borrowing the troop membership metric and applying it to the patrol. Keep 6-8 members in your patrol. Actively recruit for your patrol. Many of the troop wide metrics might work at the patrol level and make more sense. Not all, but some.

I also see scouts really struggle with planning. Teamwork in the moment they can easily grasp. Planning is an amazing challenge. Again, maybe this isn't the place but something simple might help. Again, the equivalent troop wide metric might translate well to a patrol level.

Or maybe there should be a section for the adults to encourage them to do what they should do. Not sure what that should be.

It sure sounds like you're volunteering to write one up. Thank you. I look forward to seeing the first version.

I'd use it not only to score my troop but also to teach my scouts and parents.

One of the things the official one does is make it obvious to score. So, there isn't much subjectivity. If you could keep that it would be good. Starting with some subjective measurements might not be a bad way to start a discussion, though.

Anyway, now is a good time to do this and you'd be great at making this happen. let us know what help you need.

Thanks again for helping out with this.

What about bigotry, discrimination, hatred and violence CAUSED by religion or belief?

What about it?

I agree with Stosh, human dignity applies to everyone. And a corollary might be that dignity requires empathy.

+1 for qwazse. He helped a young man learn from his mistakes and from the mistakes of others -- a useful life skill. End of story.

"we've uncovered the hidden Boy Scout influence on [the Trump] administration"

 

Unfortunately, they laughed at this quote. Again, the image is that Boy Scouts are quaint. It seems that character is about as important as hair color.