MattR

Well, it's good that you are going out on your own timetable and with the respect of your troop.  We have had two major adult leadership changes in the past year, both the result of people being in a position for way too long and being the only one NOT to realize it was time for them to go.  Eventually the changes were made but not until after a good deal of pain and anguish.  Now a new leadership team is picking up the pieces but if the same changes had occurred three or four years earlier (when I wanted them to), there would be fewer pieces to pick up.

I've seen that before. More often I've seen the leader that gets frustrated and bitter and angry. I just knew I had to leave before that started happening. I've had some great experiences and that's what I want to remember. I have a hunch these problems come from different personalities.

I may not be the leader anymore but I'd like to keep helping. I can't do that if I'm angry or burned out.

I'm about to step down and I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to be the new SM's biggest fan. Anyone that comes to me will get "do I look like the SM?" If anyone comes to complain I will tell them in no uncertain terms that they didn't volunteer so they should help out or shut up.

The reason being is that when I started the previous SM did leave and a few people that saw it as a chance to get their way. It became a pain for a year until I finally convinced them that I was, indeed, the SM. I would like to help the new guy so he doesn't have to go through this. If I have to I will be the bad guy so he can get his feet under him, but I don't think it will take much more than pulling some adults aside and talking to them. People still respect me so if I tell them the new guy really knows what he's doing they will help out.

I tried very hard not to treat my son any differently than any other scout. I told him not to get eagle for me, but for him. I did not sign off on anything for him. The adults that did were those that did not have scouts in the troop anymore. I told them not to give him a break. At the same time I didn't want to hold him up to a higher standard. During his last 6 months he did start to pull away from scouts and I respected that.

And yet, I had the best memories with him. We had a lot of fun. He went on more campouts than just about everyone else mainly because I was driving anyway. The adventure side of scouting was, and still is, his favorite. I can't keep up with him and it makes me so happy. When he was 18 he told me that when he was 16 I was not so smart but now (when he was 18) I had gotten a lot smarter. When he was 20 he told me he knew what scouting was really about. In a few weeks he'll be 26, and I'll finally be stepping down. It's been a good adventure, but having my son there was the best part.

I tell parents that scouting is an opportunity to have fun with their sons, like no other activity. On a 40 hour campout I might have only seen my son for an hour or two, but it was magic. @@Chadamus, enjoy this opportunity.

... While it is allowed, most of our scouts do not have the proper equipment to camp in a tent in the coldest winter months of Dec. Jan. Feb. and March when we have snow on the ground and overnight temperatures often dip down to below 0 and we will not allow scouts to camp in conditions for which they are not prepared. ...

You're right in that they shouldn't camp where they're not prepared. But it's not just gear. More likely it's knowledge. If your troop can find someone that can show the scouts all the tricks of staying warm and dry in cold weather (I've done 19 below) then that's one more challenge the scouts can learn from. The gear we use is not a lot different from what we call typical in the Spring and Fall. There's just more of it.

What a strange discussion. A 20 mile hike is not the same as 20 miles backpacking. And elevation has as much to do with it as mileage. 10 miles with a full pack climbing a few thousand feet at 10,000 feet is a very hard day. 20 miles with a day pack at sea level is not nearly as hard. Breathing at 14000 feet is really hard.

I believe that Back Pack got his butt kicked at Philmont doing 18 miles. Part of it is also what you're used to. We had a group that did 100 miles at Philmont and they did fine. They also live at 5000 feet and typically camp above 9000 feet.

Anyway, the OP is about doing something more challenging. I like the idea of making it something the scouts work towards and get better at. I'm not sure how well it would go over. Plop camping gets boring but too many 16 year olds like that. In their defense just hanging out with their friends is a good thing. My approach is to keep a good mix of fun easy and more challenging. I'm not sure changing eagle requirements is the right way to push for more challenge.

It's just words. This Czech party is in fact an extreme far-right and/or neo-Nazi party, depending on which article you read. In the U.S. "Workers Party of Social Justice" would more likely be a "progressive" or "left-wing" party, but even here we had the "U.S. Labor Party" which had nothing to do with labor or the "labor party movement", and the "National Democratic Policy Committee", which had nothing to do with the Democratic Party. They were both vehicles for crazy-right-wing Lyndon LaRouche.

This is so much more than any political party, this is part of Czech's messy history. First the Nazis came through and destroyed everything. Then the Soviets came through. Then the Soviets came back in force in 68. They finally left in 89, recent enough that this girl's grand parents lived through what happened and very well could have been involved in fighting the Soviets. This is not just a scout at a political rally in a peaceful democracy where people argue about taxes. This is about people that have lived through some horrific things.

There's more to this picture than what you see. I went and looked around and found some other photos of that event. This march was just one of several things going on that day. There was dancing and people eating picnics and all sorts of fun stuff. There were a few photos of the sign that the girl was holding and someone translated it. It was something like "we can help raise your kids." In other words, the scouts were trying to recruit other scouts at a festival when all of a sudden the Nazi party came marching through and the girl stood her ground. The reason I'm saying it was the Nazi party is that someone identified what the guy was wearing.

There are all sorts of reasons to switch troops. Some troops don't fit. We've had a few go and a lot more come to our troop.

It gives some scouts a chance to grow up and start over. Or maybe the focus is wrong in one troop. We push campiing and other troops push advancement. Some scouts want different things.

With that said, one of the most critical things is for a scout to have friends. It's easier to make those friendships when scouts are young but finding the right mix of personalities is just as important.

The exact rule, as far as I can tell, is the MB counselor decides. Since that's the SM, you have a bit of a problem. You can find another MB counselor but that looks a bit like going around the back of the SM. It's technically fine, but you might end up with a SM not signing the eagle app and then you get to appeal to the council. That gets ugly.

I'd suggest talking to the SM and coming to an agreement. If that doesn't work then, if your son really wants to get eagle, find another troop.

So what exactly does "a significant number of campouts" mean?

I hate to say this but 20 nights of camping is not really that much over 7 years. That's one campout a year. Even if he's playing baseball all summer there is plenty of other time to go camping. So, and this is a delicate subject, why does your son want to get eagle? I'm not saying he shouldn't get it or doesn't deserve it, but if he doesn't really care, or eagle just means he did a bunch of boring requirements, then why get it? You said he's a well rounded kid. The lack of a patch won't change that. It's not going to help him get into college or a job.

I am seeing the same thing in my town.  Over the past 5 years, our Catholic schools have lost about a third of their enrollment. The grade school and middle school have been consolidated.

That's a dramatic drop. Any idea why?

Is it possible that it's similar to the reason why there are fewer scouts?

I found this about Catholic schools: In the 10 years since the 2006 school year, 1,511 schools were reported closed or consolidated (19.9%), while 314 school openings were reported. Due to different definitions used by dioceses for consolidations, closings and their transitions into new configurations, along with actual new schools opened, the actual decrease in number of schools since 2006 is 1,064 schools (14.0%). The number of students declined by 409,384 (17.6%). The most seriously impacted have been elementary schools.

I'm not at all picking on Catholics, it's just that I see a similarity between why a parent would put a kid in a catholic school and boy scouts. I'm just wondering if whatever is driving parents away from Catholic schools is similar to what's driving parents away from scouts. We've seen numerous packs fold in the past year. It's usually a case of nobody wants to volunteer. That says to me that it's become too expensive (money or time) or less important.

I would like to know why there were 314 school openings.

We have a lot of adults that stick around. Typically they are around as long as there are scouts they know, so a few years. When I started as SM the previous one just left. It would have been nice if he had stayed. The troops I've seen with the biggest problems are the ones where there was not continuity. Some web den leader was talked into being the SM. I'm about to step down and I hope I can still be of some use and keep getting to know the scouts. It really is all about the scouts and without having a connection to them I'd be gone quick.

Hello, Dmward, and welcome to the forum. That's a lousy position to be in. But it says something that you're looking for ideas. Good for you.

I had a scout in a similar position a couple of years ago. You can search for the thread (search for "summer camp" "marijuana"), but the short version is this: He had already completed his eagle project, he took grass to summer camp, he was smoking in his tent (!), I was not at camp. When he got back we talked. I told him he had lost my trust and without that he was not going to get Eagle. He was obviously sorry about what happened, so I asked him whether he was sorry he got caught or sorry that he made a mistake. To me that was everything. If all he wanted to do was game the system then I wasn't going to put my signature on his eagle app. But, if he honestly thought he had made a mistake, then I was willing to work with him. The idea was that he had to figure out how to make it right and in order to do that he had to figure out why what he had done was wrong. The reason I asked this question is that I was in the same position you find yourself so I started asking around. One guy I talked to is my rabbi and he said it's really hard to see what's in someone's heart. Also, as fred johnson said, this is not acceptable behavior. There is no way I want any of my other scouts to think they can smoke weed at camp, make up some story about how sorry they are, and still get Eagle. The last thing I want is a kid gaming the system. At the same time every problem is an opportunity to grow. So my question was does this scout want to grow from his mistake?

He couldn't really answer that question. His parents kept interrupting and asking for a bullet list of items their son needed to do to make "it right." I wasn't so much interested in making it right as I was making him true. Anyway, I told the scout and the parents that it was up to the boy to figure out what that list of items was. The parents weren't too happy with that. The council thought I was being a bit harsh as well. The scout ended up switching troops and participating just like nothing happened (although I did tell the SM what had happened). Then the scout brought cigars to a camporee and lied about it. In the end the Council essentially said no, he will never get eagle and he will never participate in scouts again.

So, the big question is, what's in this boy's heart?

Good luck.

 The best this forum has is a buffet of ideas?

Except sometimes it starts looking like a food fight

A usual argument on this forum is what should adults do and that's what this thread has evolved into. And yet on the surface it's about numbers of adults and where they camp and what they do at summer camp. None of this matters if the adults are doing what they're supposed to be doing.

 I turned my fixation ... on the scouts. Actually each scout individually.

Yes. Different scouts and scout leaders have different abilities and maturity as well as different adults. That's why I can see different approaches, none of which are wrong. I can easily see a mob of new parents that don't get it, butting into everything and the response is sorry, too many adults and we'll only take a tenth of the number of scouts. I would like to see better training for adults (and summer camp would be a great time for this) so they could easily help the staff out, or go hike, or work remotely.

The reality, for me, is a bit harsher. Whereas webelos used to join in February we just had our last few scouts join two weeks ago. These guys have never camped and we have two campouts to get them comfortable being away from mom and dad. No amount of me talking to parents did any good. We were going to put them into patrols before summer camp and we may have to because the troop guides are working this summer and not going to summer camp. We may have some adults sticking around camp.

Maybe this is a good example illustrating that different troops do different things. What else is there to say?

How to say this courteously .... Ask the DE to show you, on scouting.org where it says you can't make your own recruitment fliers.

Here is a document that explains how you can use BSA registered trademarks: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/310-0231.pdf

While the BSA fleur-de-lis is a registered trademark, just a plain old fleur-de-lis probably isn't (otherwise the New Orleans Saints would be in trouble). You can use the BSA one but you have to use their colors and a few other things.

Point being, go ahead and make recruitment fliers. Make it fun. Make it exciting. And include a picture of you getting pied.

@@SSScout points out a reality for some council camps that are just plain broke. They don't have money to get great camp staff. Many years ago I went to a camp and the cook quit Monday afternoon. So a bunch of adults cooked the rest of the week. I have yet to see a pioneering MB counselor that can teach all the splices to all the scouts all at one time, they need help.

There are also camps that have huge endowments and get phenomenal staff. In those situations I get to wander around, take pictures, go for bike rides, or fish. 

As for the troop, I can see too many adults, or just one that doesn't get it, get in the way. At the same time scouts can start getting cranky on Thursday and a bit of wisdom at just the right point in time can help the leadership learn things more smoothly.

Hi Jeanvaljean,

There are as many opportunities as there are merit badges. They are meant to be done individually. I'd suggest your son go online and figure out what MB he'd like to do. Then he should contact his scoutmaster and ask him to help get a list of merit badge counselors for that MB. The Council likely has a list but sometimes they will only give that list out to scoutmasters. Anyway, once your son has a list of counselors he should start call one and ask if the counselor can work with him and what he needs to do. Your son will need what's called a blue card and he can also get that from his scoutmaster. There's some paperwork to be done but it all fits on that blue card.

Best of luck.

If the mission of the BSA is to prepare young people to make ethical choices... lamenting over parents who not bring theirchild to scouts with these skills seems a bit misplaced.

The lamenting is not that parents are not preparing their sons, it's that some parents are pushing against that mission. The parents that ask for my help in teaching their sons how to be responsible freely admit they need help and they are easy to work with. It's the parents that push back, refuse to help, or complain when their sons are uncomfortable that create problems.

Tamagochi's? really? Don't you remember Klackers? Two acrylic balls on a string. And the theme song: "They're Klackers, they're klackers, must have some balls to play..." until they explode.

 he is rude and refuses.  ...  it is distracting other scouts from attempting to get the work done they are trying to do.

There's the real problem. Just because a scout is ADHD doesn't give him a pass on obedient or courteous.

That makes more sense.

So yes, teenagers ARE -- or at least WERE -- capable of discerning right from wrong AND knowing who to contact for recommendations.

SOME scouts ARE capable. Some are not. I don't mind scouts that do stupid things as long as they can learn from it. You lost the adult's trust but eventually you earned it back.

I think now (and over the last 15 years or more) folks just think they can get away with stuff.

Didn't you think you could get away with it?

I used to take them away. Now I agree with a phone is a tool, don't abuse it. Abuse is using your phone as a bubble. In other words, if a scout is so wrapped up in a game or music or whatever that he's not participating with the scouts around him then there's a problem. Since an entire patrol can't really see one screen, and we never camp where there's cell coverage anyway, this usually means put the phone away. If a scout wants to sit in his tent and listen to music while his buddy sleeps, I don't mind. Pictures are encouraged. If someone is listening to music to the point that someone else can't get their attention then he gets teased a bit, he puts the cell phone away, and all is good. I will add that nobody likes noise pollution on campouts, so no music speakers.

 

As I said earlier, I have never seen it happen either, but I am sure it does happen, and that old thread seems to support that idea.  It does not really shed any light on the kinds of situations in which it might happen.  One can only guess at the reasons why that Scout got four negative letters, and I mean that literally:  One can only guess.

I'm not surprised at all. I've seen scouts do incredibly dumb things thinking they'd get away with it. Case in point: there's an old thread about a scout smoking marijuana at summer camp (yeah, that was my scout). So, if a scout thinks he can get away with something and is that naive then he's likely to just ask anyone for a recommendation without thinking it through very well. You guys are thinking like adults, not a 16 year old.

#squirrel!

swilliams, I have a slightly different view on this. The most important achievement a young scout needs to make it to Eagle is friendship. Scouts with friends are having fun. Scouts having fun stick around. There's plenty of time for rank advancement if a scout sticks around.

An 11 year old is still young enough that it's easy to make friends. Somewhere around 13-14 peer pressure gets intense and not only does it start getting harder to make friends but they're even more critical. That's kids start pulling away from mom and dad. A 14 year old that doesn't have friends in a troop will likely drop out. It's not about other things to do, it's about friends.

So, go camping with him. Don't hover. You don't even have to see him very much on the campout. Just make sure he's there, having fun. Share the dirt with him and the resulting stories. Get him jazzed about going on the next campout. Oh, and once in a while ask him how his advancement is going.