MattR

I wouldn't ask them if they want to go on a hike. I'd ask them if they want to go fishing, and by the way, it's a mile from the trail head. As soon as the snow melts ....

You're right, bringing up politics or religion at a party is a sure way to get labeled as a creeper. However, if your religion or politics come up as a side light to something really cool you've done, then you're good as long as you don't push it. So, forget about politics (there is nothing cool about it). Religion is okay in the context of doing some good. Boy Scouts is easy to bring up. Just tell them what great things you're doing and don't mention Boy Scouts until they ask, and they will. If they want to talk more about it then talk more. If not, leave it at that. You'd be surprised how many people think what we do is cool. Service projects. Eagle projects. Helping kids that have screwed up parents. High adventure. People enjoy talking about all of those things. After you tell someone you helped collect 2500 pounds of food for the local food bank, or that you biked Moab, they most likely will not complain too loudly when you then say it was with the Boy Scouts. The usual response is "really?" and then they tell you you're doing something great with the kids.

17. Yes no maybe. I'll be blunt. Take a long hard look at yourself. Do you personally appeal to teenagers? Or will a teenager look at you and think scouts sucks? Think about that before publicly idenitfying yourself as a scouter. This bit of our website has photos of our leaders. Take a guess who we most take the opportunity to push forward in public. Clue..... it's not me!

Yea, everyone looks young, except, Roger, who is ....? Santa Claus?

My guess is every one of us has lots of stories about the good things that kids get from scouts. If not we wouldn't be here. My guess is many parents would respond to those stories. I'm not sure how to get them out but if half of all kids are being raised in single parent homes then there are a lot of single parents that are praying for help in raising their kids.

so let's try to keep this on how to get kids back outside.

Let's start a new program, called FASSS Scouts: Fun, Adventure, Science, Sweating and Skills ... Just trying to push some buttons.

I read that book a few years ago and I really liked it. One thing great about the outdoors that is really hard for kids to understand is that the best things are never planned. The most fun, inspiring, or encouraging is never expected. Kind of like a good joke. Another consideration is that different kids respond to different things. Some kids like a physical challenge, some like fun, camaraderie, science, fishing, adventure, .... So, for each kid it's different and it's hard to plan the really good stuff. My only suggestion is to encourage a lot of it. When I was a kid and we went "outdoors" it was usually not a campout and, at least during the summer we went a lot more than once a month. Maybe the trick is to get the scouts to do more half day activities near by. I think it would be great if for every weekend in the summer at least one patrol was organizing something in the outdoors. Ultimate awesomeness would be every weekend of the year.

I sat through a roundtable STEM presentation last week. Oh my goodness. Don't get me wrong, I'm a STEM guy through and through in my career. I see science everywhere in the outdoors. But this is not science. This is cramming something wonderful into the merit badge mill. Investigate your calculator and explore the different functions. This is not boy scouts. Scouts is fun with your friends, adventure, competition, and new skills. This is a bad, middle school science program. This is pages of mind numbing requirements because they don't trust the teacher. Compare this to a robotics competition, science Olympiad, or just an advanced AP or IB class (that gives you real college credit) and I don't see many scouts wanting to do it. It's way too simple for anyone in high school and the younger scouts won't touch this unless the adults push it.

How about explore the mega tsunami of Lituay Bay Alaska in terms of the math behind it (how much energy is in a tidal wave 1700 feet high?), or the amount of energy required to blow the top off of Mt St Helens in terms of hydrogen bombs? Or model a trebuchet using available software and design and build one. Obviously it requires a good teacher to do a good job. If you find one then why handcuff them with stupid requirements? If you can't find one then just let the kid do his homework because that's all this is.

I'm not saying STEM is bad or that the BSA can't be part of encouraging STEM, it's just that this is bad.

I had a talk with one of the younger PLs tonight and I spelled this all out to him. I put it in terms of he was responsible for "delivering the promise" to his patrol and the promise was all the reasons why anyone is in scouts. He liked it. And when I said he has to learn how to say no to the SPL he really thought that was cool.

​I did something similar for some older scouts but I told them they all would have to help each other if they were going to do all the fun things. We also talked about purpose and how different scouts are there for different reasons. I could see some light bulbs go on. I could also see some dead batteries.

Keeping it in the context of a patrol sized group of scouts with similar interests made it all seem so much easier. I appreciate the gang of friends concept. A three year spread is good. Six is too much.

One thing I see getting in the way is communication. It used to be pick up the phone and dial. Now it's voice? email? text? facebook? All buried amid 100 messages a day wrapped up in the fact that Billy lost his phone while Johnie will only text. So how can Billy find out that Johnie wants to go skiing? I think I need to facilitate the conversation.

I thought that WAS the purpose of the patrols!

That's why I suggested it was the crux.

Qwazse, you bring up another point. With "only worried about themselves" is it that the scout can't even share, or is it that he needs to actively try to make things better for his patrol? I have a troop full of scouts that can share, but actively try and help each other? That's a foreign concept. I now have patrols that are on their own without a dictating SPL so I hope this idea takes hold.

Ever wonder why the statue of David is nude? There are lots of nude statues of Roman generals. This statue is screaming Greek and Roman art and comes from the idea of "heroic nudity" in art. To quote (wikipedia because it was easy to find):

"Heroic nudity or ideal nudity is a concept in classical scholarship to describe the use of nudity in classical sculpture to indicate that a sculpture's apparently mortal human subject is in fact a hero or semi-divine being. This convention began in archaic and classical Greece and was later adopted by Hellenistic and Roman sculpture. This concept operated for women as well as for men, with females having themselves portrayed as Venus and other goddesses...."

Good observation. Maybe the crux is getting the scouts to care about each other.

I thought that's how crews were made up. Qwazse, why the cohesion problems? Or how long does it take for cohesion to take place?

I chucked ad-hoc patrols years ago. The issue is the scouts are the ones that want to create them. They like mixing it up. They don't like cliques in school. Everyone said people these days don't want to commit to a group like Rotary or Elks, so why would scouts commit to a patrol for years?

One point nobody said anything about was getting scouts to commit a month out. I think that would help a lot if the meetings were important preparation for a campout.

Anyway, I just let the scouts decide what patrols they want to be in and it divided almost perfectly into older patrols and younger patrols with the split around 13 to 14 years old. The younger scouts have already picked patrol leaders while the older scouts are vegetating. I think it's going to be a lot easier for the two different ages to come up with their own ideas. And if they want to swap scouts around to help them work around schedules, I'll let them.

Based on the millennial thread ....

Many scouts are over scheduled and everyone seems to be time poor. Patrols get hurt by this when only half, or less, of a patrol shows up for a campout. This results in ad-hoc patrols formed the week before the campout, or huge patrols being formed to preempt the loss. Neither is good. Here's another idea and I'm not saying it's good, but what do you think?

The idea is that patrols are only created for a month before a campout. The scouts commit to that patrol and that campout for the entire month. After the campout the patrol disbands. Scouts that are busy with other activities for three months don't form into patrols (or form into pink pony patrols that don't camp ). A patrol leader needs to lead on 4 or 6 such campouts to get signed off.

Pros: Adapts to schedules and reduces stress of having to go. Teaches scouts to look ahead, if only for a month. Fluidity more closely matches current organizations. Patrols have more time together then ad-hoc patrols and can work together. Assuming that friends tend to stick together, scouts can still make long term relationships. It's easier for patrols to go do their own thing. It's easier for all the kids that are going to the soccer tournament to pick another week to camp.

Cons: Who is leading the troop if the patrols are constantly changing? It doesn't handle the case where schedules change at the last minute -- homework or illness. How are patrol leaders elected? Or are they elected every month? Are quiet kids, or younger kids, going to get dropped between the cracks? This would have no impact on a small troop. Some of the adults in my troop would have a fit because they say you should join a patrol when you're 11 and not leave until you're 18.

We have them. They ask lots of questions of the scout. It's mostly explaining the process, which really is contorted. That project book is difficult.

We do it because whenever I ask an Eagle candidate if he's ever done anything similar, where he has to deal with the wide open nature of the Eagle project along with real people and their quirks, they always say no. This is where the "adult association" method really works well. There have been problems with lazy scouts and adults that step in too much but for the most part it's very positive.

Thanks for the laugh.

A few years ago I was backpacking with my troop when we came upon some ladies backpacking that, uh, were trying for a different set of tan lines. It was steep terrain and no place to go so they discretely turned. They were more embarrassed than the scouts who didn't notice a thing because as usual they were staring at their feet. Not much to miss anyway.

We ask scouts to put in enough description and detail that they can give the book to someone else and they could run the project. The only point is to get the scout to think through all the details. Things usually change but the scout has enough insight that he can easily deal with the change. So we will ask a scout to fill in more information before we'll sign it.

Late, but I'll put in my 2 cents as I just went through something similar. There's a thread on weed and summer camp for details. I'm not going to get upset and throw a kid out because a he made a mistake with grass. But I do want to see some growth, acknowledgement, or something that the scout knew he did something wrong and not that he just got caught. That's where I drew the line. The scout lost my trust in him when he broke the law and it was up to him to repair that. The scout's parents asked for a check list of things to do to gain back my trust and I said trust isn't gained by a simple check list.

I wasn't going to sign off on Eagle until I saw this. If some other SM wants to sign off or the scout wants to skirt around me and have the Council sign off, that's fine by me, but I don't have to condone bad behavior. The scout I had to work with left my troop for another. Now I can get back to working with scouts that want a good program.

I'd do something similar in your situation. If someone made me SM of a troop with that type of train wreck in the middle of it I'd say these are my rules and these are your options. Whether or not a scout peed in a cup every week has nothing to do with whether he realized he did something wrong and wanted to make it right.

That article mentions that many web sites are removing comments because a small minority will take over and control the conversation. We also have a small minority that can control the conversation. The difference is our minority is driven by the Oath and Law and the others are driven by greed.

Thanks Moderators.

BTW, I see other websites that work and they too have a "play nice" policy that's enforced by moderators. These used to be called editors.

BD, he kept himself clean for 12 weeks, peed in a cup randomly, and took a diversion course so the court said he's fine. And for that I would have let him back in the troop, had he asked.

His dad did call me yesterday, and said his son wants to transfer. Dad said it would be too rough for his son to come back to the troop because of the negative history. I could have said all sorts of things about how it could be a silver lining and a character building experience but all I said was fine and good luck. I just wanted to ask if he's so afraid of what other people will think of him then why his facebook page still looks like a cesspool. I don't know what's going through his mind but it's not that he thinks he did something wrong.

The Council Exec said he'd talk to the new SM to let him know of this kid's history. The Council would not like to see him receive Eagle unless he can prove he's changed. I'm really glad I don't have to make that call.

Still enjoy the outdoors. Check.

Still enjoy working with scouts. Check.

Still excited about making a better program or improving my skills. Check.

Still rarely come home from a campout feeling fried (only once). Check. Meetings are another story.

Still can't get anyone to say yes to "do you want to be the SM." Check, I guess. I have tried.

Still get my way at committee meetings and still have a lot of support from the majority of the adults. Check.

Still get a few adults that are horse butts so I have a ready supply of topics at the bar. Check.

But the most important:

Still get several scouts a year to say thank you. Priceless.

I think a lot of people could do a better job than me, but I like it, so I do it. Everyone should do what they can, and scouts is my thing.

Update:

The kid did the proscribed class and urine check every week for 12 weeks and kept himself clean. I tried talking to him twice but he never responded. I also occasionally looked at his facebook page. The bottom line is he didn't seem to really want to make a change in his life. His facebook page is, well, embarrassing. He's still hanging out with the same group of kids, who are not a good influence. So when it came to rechartering I told the person handling it that this boy could recharter with us but he had to talk to me first. I figure if he can't find the nerve to call me and he's made no attempt at all of cleaning things up, then my inviting him back into the troop is a mistake. This is a horse and water thing and I don't see any motivation on his part. He can still call me but I'm not holding my breath.

Not exactly what I was hoping for but I'm not surprised at all.

Here's my two cents from 50,000 feet. The boys came up with an idea (hooray for them for just doing that) that may have come across as a surprise to a bunch of parents that don't have the money this time of year. Some parents came back with a knee jerk reaction that was way off base. The parents are clueless. No matter what, this is not a SM issue. There's a problem here between the parents and the PLC. If I were in this situation I'd talk to some of the parents and find out what's bugging them about the party. I'd tell them the party is optional and no, I will not pay for it. If the parents don't want to pay for it then I'd take that back to the PLC and tell them they have a problem to solve.

I would also ignore the obnoxious parents. This is about the boys. They don't seem to be upset with how the troop is running, and that's all that matters.

What I think he's saying is he doesn't trust the PLC/older scouts to do the right thing. They likely won't if they don't have good support and training. I'd talk to the older scouts about this. They will make mistakes but hopefully the support is there to correct them. At least that's what I'm counting on for my troop.

 

Matt, is this in addition to summer camp? Are you the adult leader for every trip? I'm wondering because for me, the hardest part of being a crew advisor (and I think my co-advisor would agree) is setting aside those vacation days when we also have to support kids in college. Working extra to balance budgets is a bit of an issue, but the family is expecting to be home during breaks, older kids are getting married, etc ...

Yes, we also have summer camp, but no, I don't go on everything. I usually pick one event. While I'd love to go on every trip, and make every campout a 3 day weekend, it ain't so. I have a big troop and dads that like the outdoors. We have two HA trips because most are limited to 12 people and we have more than 12 that want to go. If we have two inexpensive trips then a lot of scouts want to go on both. There's an age, around 16, where there are scouts that go on everything. They really enjoy the week long trips. That's the hook that keeps kids in my troop. When I talk to scouts that age out about good memories, most of them are high adventure, so I push high adventure.

"Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans." - Allen Saunders

Anyone here besides me...been in a Scouting Unit do a Rim to Rim at the Grand Canyon.

We did that for a high adventure trip. Three nights in the canyon. Two groups started at either rim and exchanged keys in the middle. The cool thing was there were no other people on the trail that age. Everyone we met thought it was great. Hiking up the North side at sunrise is incredibly beautiful.

We have two high adventure trips a year. One is allowed to be expensive (~Philmont cost) and one must be inexpensive ($200 - $300). Scouts can easily raise that much in a year.

Wow. Id' suggest you write a big long email and then throw it out. It helps. But the truth is that if the current SM likes what you're doing then it doesn't matter what the former one says. There will always be someone that doesn't like change.

But, never waste a problem or an opportunity! How about asking the PLC what they thought about the former SM's talk? You'll develop trust by being loyal to your scouts. They might also talk about what they're worried about, or need help with. Also, the former SM just challenged your scouts. Let the scouts know that and they'll most likely want to prove him wrong.

There's nothing quite like a trouble maker to pull everyone else together. Use it.