MattR

 

Sadly the BSA has been changing the requirements to fit a more self-serving marketing agenda instead of a character development agenda.

Maybe it's just me but most of the requirements for Eagle have little to do with character development. The BSA seems to believe that they can quantify what Eagle means in terms of a set of check boxes. But character is really something that is difficult to quantify and scoutmasters are not trusted to make those decisions. I think that's the real problem. The changes in requirements are just busy work. The real issue is developing scoutmasters the BSA can trust and letting them do their job. Where have I heard this before? Train them, trust them, and let them be?

I'm in full violation by telling my older scouts I'll never sign their Eagle app if the younger scouts don't look up to them. Yet that and a discussion of how they can get to that point and they're much better scouts.

What I would do: make sure the boy is still enjoying scouts (high adventure trips) If not, forget it, it's over. If so, he is going through what we call slacker phase. If he wants it he will complete it. Nearly all do.

What I would not do: bribe him (car for Eagle) or threaten him (no license until Eagle) or incessantly nag him about how wonderful Eagle is. I've had a number of scouts in slacker phase turn it around just about when the parents gave up and left them alone.

I ask scouts why they like our troop. Some responses: We do a lot. Events have fun or challenge but there is time to just hang out. We have scouts that are Den Chiefs and the webelos really liked them. We run the haunted house for the Council every year and some Webs join us just for that. We have a lot of high adventure trips. This boy led thing is new but they like it and they like their patrols. Scouts feel welcome when they visit. Every campout other than klondike, high adventure, and summer camp is open to cub scouts and their parents (we ignore rules about requirements for cub scouts at those campouts). They think it's cool when I defend their choices in front of the other adults. The outdoors are such a great break from the usual grind and drama of high school. They learn skills and do things they would never do outside of scouts. I hear these last two a lot from older scouts.

There's a lot of tough love going on in my troop. I treat the older scouts the same way I want them to treat the younger scouts. I tell the older scouts they will not get Eagle if the younger scouts don't look up to them. They look at me funny when I tell them the best way to get the younger scouts to notice them is to have fun with them and/or have their own adventure so the younger scouts can see it. After that, teaching skills is easy. Those scouts, that are looking out for the younger scouts, are the best recruitment tool.

Maybe the bottom line here is recruitment is no different than retaining scouts by giving them age appropriate challenges.

So scouts will spend more time fiddling with their smart phones?  ... They may as well stay home and virtually earn their Arrowhead Patch.  

My guess is it's more a case of adult's wishful thinking. These two have a hammer and they're looking for nails.

These people think that because scouts like to text each other they will like to look stuff up online. So they will add lots of requirements to look stuff up and discuss what they've found. But scouts would rather shoot, paddle, ride, and do stuff with their hands. The scouts will ignore whatever these people come up with.

I'm curious if the "don't wear deet" idea is based on science or just a hunch. I've used that stuff for years and never had a problem with bears. All of a sudden we get a camp guy saying don't put any on after 5pm. If a bear can smell a candy wrapper from a mile away -- I've seen those claims -- he can probably figure out what you ate from what your sweat smells like and can also smell the deet you put on that morning. And no deodorant in the world will cover it up. Dogs learn the scent of other dogs so they can identify each other. Smell is more important than sight. A bear has a much better sense of smell. My guess is they see smells the way we see a buffet table. "hmm, leftover gorp, apple core juice, come on, Big Piece of Salami! Score!

Waterplant, first of all welcome. Good for you for trying to improve your troop. You mention three problems, swearing, too many adults, and one scout that doesn't obey anyone but mom and dad.  

I see a bigger question. Who solves the problems in your troop, the scouts or the adults? Who deals with a scout that doesn't listen to anyone? Adults or scouts? One thing you should be doing in scouts is learning how to deal with problems like these and do it in a scout like manner. There should be a time to bring these problems up in the PLC and talk about them. Do you have that time? Does your PLC solve problems or do they just make a few plans and leave the problems up to the adults? Your asking about these problems on this forum implies you want to solve them, which is great, but also implies your plc has no experience or help in solving them, which might be the crux of the problem.

As for your specific problems, ask the PLC about the swearing. If some scouts agree with you then you have a place to start. A talk about Clean and a swear jar sounds good to me. For the scout that doesn't listen, my experience is that there are always a few scouts that have figured out that they can ignore all the other scouts because the scout leaders do not have the authority or are uncomfortable using it to deal with problem scouts. If the only thing you can do is plead with a scout to behave, and he's not interested in helping but is more interested in playing mind games, then he'll never behave. He's winning his game by ignoring you. The PLC needs some authority to deal with this scout and some training on the right way to do it. As for adults in camp, is the problem that there are adults in camp or that the adults are getting in the way of the scouts doing their thing? I would not have a problem with adults camping. I'd have a big problem with adults minding their own business. Making rules about how many adults can go camping will not solve the underlying issue of adults not allowing the scouts to run their own patrol. You're going to have to learn how to confront the adults on this one and I'd suggest getting help from the SM. He should be helping you pull back the adults.

Let us know how it's going and best of luck.

I agree with everything people have said here - what a mess, good for you for wanting to improve things, good for your mom for backing you up, but you're up against a real problem and reason and listening to scouts doesn't look like it's in the cards. JoeBob makes a very good point. Maybe nobody will listen to one scout leaving on his own, but if a group all show the adults their transfer apps at the same time it might have a bigger impact and maybe some adults that should say something will start stepping up. I'd add one thing to what JoeBob says. Rather than 5 or 6 friends, how about asking your patrol to visit the other troops with you? Or, at least pick a group that you'd like to be in a patrol with. If a troop will take you as a patrol then you know for a fact that they respect the boys. You'll have instant friends in a new troop and that would help a lot. Anyway, this would be a good example of servant leadership.

A minor point about sending email to the Council. Email is often ignored, it's better to call and talk to someone.

I've given my spl authority to send scouts home. It's never been used but the scouts know he has it. The spl is less likely to send a scout home than I am so it works. One problem it solves is the scouts that are perfect when adults are around but quite selfish when adults are not around. We ask that the pl try to solve the problem but if that doesn't work the spl is brought in. If it still doesn't work and it comes to me then I just have to find a ride home. A couple of times it has come to me and I start looking for keys when all of a sudden everyone starts cooperating. The goal of all this to push the whole problem and solution, including respect of authority, down to the scouts. The scout leaders struggle with being the bad guy and some scouts know that.

One side effect of letting scouts form their own patrols is all of those that cause trouble are in the same patrol in my troop. I told them they have the most energy and will either be the best patrol or will fight with each other and be miserable. The difference being whether they follow the Oath and Law. I told them it's their choice but if they keep acting like cub scouts I will treat them like cub scouts. I went into the details of what that meant and got their attention. I also asked them to explain the humor of some off color jokes in detail. Talk about embarrassing a kid ("so the mayonnaise represents semen? How is that funny? Really, please explain." Long uncomfortable silence with me staring right at them). The words "I'm dissapointed in your actions because they don't reflect who I think you are" had a surprising impact. But it will still take many iterations of this. Kids don't change that quickly.

It's ironic that Gates said the BSA needs to act quickly in order to control the discussion and yet they are quickly losing control within their own ranks.

Let's make training for outdoor adventure the way merit badges should be for scouts. Adults like power point slides as much as the boys. Adults need more than a day's worth of training, just like the boys. One on one training while actually doing it is fun and exactly what the boys like to do. Set that up for the adults and training wouldn't be the big dread. Share some of that youthful awe of learning something new with the adults and they might want to volunteer more often.

Next, connect people with experience from outside of scouting with those that want it. Instead of having official BSA training (other than for safety) use the local community to find experts. I've found spelunking expertise and climbing expertise outside of scouting. And connect them long enough such that those learning will at least keep doing it and be able to take their troop out.

That means people would have to commit to it. The harder the adventure the more commitment. If nobody wants to commit then there's no high adventure trip. Backpacking requires 3 weekends and one evening. Climbing is a lot more. River rafting is similar. People can decide what they want to do.

You made my argument: Many of these leaders lacked basic implementational knowledge to AVOID these situations. Not having enough water, not having a map, leaving the trail, running out of food, not notifying people of your travel plans, not looking at the hydrology tables PRIOR to setting out on a canoe trip, under-estimating the abilities of the people on your trek....these are ALL avoidable things had these leaders taken all the basic training above AND some of the additional training mentioned.

It's the additional training I'd like to see because the basic training doesn't cover this. Certainly not IOLS. Not sure about trek safely.

Part of this is basic adventure training: know your limits. That requires experience. No classes can teach that.

But again, these guys got out alive with no serious injury. Only one group split up so that's good. And people knew to eat their pride and know when they were beat.

I'm not sure that any of that training would help in any of those situations. Did they ever need wilderness first aid? They all knew enough to keep out of serious trouble - nobody got seriously hurt. Second, of all the boy scout trips that are going on right now (thousands?) this is the worst of it. Bad things do happen and these guys did okay.

What were the problems? Some got lost because they couldn't see the trail and they should have backed out. Someone got lost because they intentionally left the trail and didn't have a map (okay, that's stupid). Someone got surprised by a higher than normal river. Bad luck. The guys on the ice had no idea what they were getting into.

IOLS won't cover any of this. The idea of back country treking training is a good idea.

I agree with Calico that it's all local. If the scouts are having fun and are getting something out of it then they'll make time to keep going. I also agree with Eagledad that the new adults are clueless. The model of training them has to improve.

I'm the perfect example. I was in a lousy troop as a kid during my older years and did not see any of the GBB stuff. Even though I was an SPL I was beyond clueless. As an adult I saw a certain magic in scouts and knew it was a good thing. Great, so where do I go for help? I repeated what I saw in my troop but I knew that wasn't working. I asked my commissioner, I went to Woodbadge, and I still got nowhere. I joined here and got some really curt responses the first time around, mainly because I didn't know the right questions to ask. I reread all the manuals and even picked up some books. I just kept plugging away at it because I'm stubborn. That model will not work.

I realize that a lot of people here have seen it working for a long time and it's all second nature but it's not at all obvious if you haven't seen it. If National could better support/prepare those people then all the other problems would solve themselves.

You do realize that one way a kid with Aspergers gets in trouble is when they go over the line when teasing is going on. You were playing with fire with the first time and got lucky; and then let it happen with the second one.

I'm a scoutmaster, I'm always playing with fire.

BadWolf, very true, especially if there's a woman involved.

Well Stosh, I first read your OP as a bit random, so I could see how someone could get a D&G message. But now that you've clarified it....

Honestly, the scouts in my troop are getting more adventure and leadership than what I got out of scouting. So maybe things aren't all that bad.

The dumb stuff from national (squirt guns!) I mostly ignore. Well, squirt guns are completely ignored. When lighting a fire became optional I said no, it wasn't. I'm changing the rules and that's dangerous. There are a wide range of troops and I've seen some that also change the rules and I'd be very much against the way they change it but I have to respect it and just walk away. I'm okay with making a scout dance for lost items and others aren't okay. I respect that. If the membership rules do change in October there's going to be a need for a lot more respect. Lotta happy and a lotta sad gonna be blowing in the wind.

The idea that SMs can improve their skills and troops can improve should be pushed. The idea behind JTE is good, it's just that JTE is measuring the wrong things. The idea that roundtable and a troop commissioner can help a SM improve is a great idea but in practice has been a failure as there don't seem to be a lot of adults that know how it's supposed to work.

So, on the one hand SMs are encouraged to do their own thing because National is micro managing what we do, and on the other hand SMs are living in a bubble where they are positive they are doing it right. Bottom line is there are no clear pictures of what good is. Solve that and I predict good things will come from it.

BTW, there's a vacuum at the top so your revolution will have to be grass roots based.

Our council doesn't care. That said, I'd suggest you make sure you know anyone from outside your unit. We once had an opening and asked around to neighboring units. We ended up with a handful of a kid. To make a long story short we almost locked him in the compartment where the anchor and chain go. Not really, but we did smile thinking about it. The former scout you know, so no problem. The friends I'd say they'd have to do some things with your unit a couple of times "so everyone can get to know each other."

One of my observations is that the behaviors associated with Asperger's are sort of impulses that people can resist if they wish to do so.

 

Part of may life has been learning to modify the way those impulses are acted out,  and to get in the habit of displaying more common kinds of behavior.

 

As I read about Asperger's treatment,  that seems to be a common part of such therapies.

@@SeattlePioneer, I've had two scouts in my troop with Asperger's. I'm no doctor, but if you really do have Asperger's it would be really interesting to compare what I see with what you see. You see , it appears to me that scouts with Asperger's flat out don't see social ques at a young age. I worked with one scout for a long time just playfully teasing him. By the time he was 16 he could dish it right back and it was great. I'd say these scouts were also focused like a laser on anything they were doing. They struggled with changing plans and things that went wrong. The first scout got Eagle early and left because "there was nothing else to do." The second had a rough time with other scouts goofing around, he once attacked another scout with a stick -- he just couldn't see that it was not serious. He found a smaller troop and it all worked out.

So, yes, the one had impulse issues. The other didn't.

Stosh has an interesting way of bringing up an interesting subject. JoeBob just wants to shoot them, whoever they is

I agree the BSA is struggling and while some of this might be society I'd say National is doing a great job of shooting itself. 80% of adults think "scouting is good for young people" (whatever they think scouting is). This came from a Rasmussen poll a year ago. So, there's nothing wrong with the outdoors. What is wrong is BSA seems to be confused about what scouting is. The first thing read on the BSA website is the aims of scouting:

The BSA provides a program for young people that builds character, trains them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develops personal fitness.

If I were a parent that didn't know much about scouts I'd puke reading that. Besides being unappealing, it doesn't mention the outdoors or adventure.

If National wants membership maybe it should pander to the parents that want scouting. Make adventure and the outdoors the primary goal. Make problem solving and responsibility second. Make service third. Make Eagle last. Repeat this like a mantra at National. Everything else will take care of itself.

I'm encouraging my PLs to try this. At least one is keeping track and all of them sounded interested. It's really helping get across the idea that they can do their own thing. We also do something like patrol points to encourage adventure. So, no points for advancement but points for everything else. The points are used for competitions, buying into a cabin (sleep inside on certain winter campouts) and we're thinking of using them to upgrade gear.

I tried this a few years ago to encourage the patrols to do their own thing and it wasn't enough. They were clueless. There has been a lot of groundwork that has been done since. The way the patrols are going I expect within a year this won't be enough of a challenge, they'll just have to fill out the paperwork. But for now it's the perfect thing to break them away from the troop. I'll pile on the praise for the first patrol that completes it.

SOAR isn't tied to TroopMaster except that it can import TroopMaster data same as many other systems including ScoutBook.  

 

I'ved tried the SOAR / TroopMaster integration and I would not recommend it.  It's too easy to get out of sync, lose data or create duplicate membership records.  If you use the two, keep the contact information in SOAR and the advancement details in TroopMaster.  Use the TroopMaster import to initially load SOAR.  But after that, never never import again.  Just have an agreement on what is kept where.  

I didn't think SOAR would upload advancement reports to Internet Advancement like TroopMaster will. Am I wrong? Otherwise we'd have to manually do that and that would be a duplication. For us troopmaster is a database we can print reports from and upload advancement to council while SOAR is used for communication. So the integration works for us. Again, it's okay but....

I agree with a lot of what Horizon says. One more observation: we, as a society, used to be interested in fighting evil, now we're interested in winning. It used to be about being good, now it's about being successful. By 7th grade you need to start specializing in your sport, and don't even think about skipping a game. This feeds the curse of Eagle and modern problems. One aside, the older scouts in my troop all say they like scouts because they can get away from the usual grind of AP, tests, homework, ... being successful.

One thing about pushing success is adventure has been pushed out of the way, and that's the problem I see. Adventure is about trying something new and sometimes failing. That's where memories come from. My son and daughter have a much greater sense of adventure then the scouts in my troop. My wife and I both did our share of adventure as teenagers and it rubbed off. The thread on Patrol Method I started is because I want to increase the sense of adventure in my troop. It's a lot harder than I thought. The problem with adventure is it can get close to the edge, and that's where all hell breaks loose at National and the parents. One person goes over the edge and nobody else is allowed to get even close. We can't climb on rocks more than waist high. Squirt guns. We can't shoot cannons at summer camp anymore because one fool stood in front of the cannon and the wad tore up his insides and he died. It was a terrible accident but why can't we learn from this and move forward rather than back away?

But it's not all National's fault. Adventure is a skill and many scouters don't have it. A lot of people don't have it and some have it in spades. The idea of adventure as a skill might help the BSA focus on developing it rather than focusing on Eagle numbers. It doesn't have to be kayak a class 5 rapid to get Eagle, but just stretch scouts to get out of their comfort zone, wherever that is for each scout. I can't believe it wouldn't really help membership.

BTW, I had a PL just send me email saying his patrol is going to do something else at the next meeting than what the PLC decided (a first!). One idea involves shooting lasers at each other, so don't tell anyone. It isn't hiking the continental divide but it's a start.

Bad Wolf, yes, Council has asked us to use it. It helps the council because all the advancement, service hours, and JTE numbers are automatically uploaded. TroopMaster already loads the advancement info.

fred, well, okay, SOAR isn't exactly archaic but the fact that it's tied to TroopMaster makes it rather clunky compared to what could be done. Their email solution to the yahoo mess makes searching through emails a nuisance. Scouts can't update their contact info because info can't flow back to troopmaster, where that info all comes from. It would be really nice to create email aliases based on who is signed up for an event, but there's the troopmaster event and the soar event. That's the kind of thing I'm whining about. It's not horrible and it is the best we can find, but, well, you get what you pay for.

On the other hand, from what I saw about scoutbook, it is very glitzy with cute graphics, but I'm not sure it has the functionality of troopmaster. I kind of cringe when I read about how parents can find out about "schedule advancement and home assignments"

We use TroopMaster and SOAR. They're both a hack using archaic technology. However, the reason we've been asked to use scoutbook is because it will help the council. That doesn't seem to imply it will help us, so we're not interested.

Scoutbook doesn't have a website part, costs twice as much as TroopMaster (for us), and doesn't integrate with SOAR. So we have no reason to use it.

Yep, they came from Area 51. They did learn quickly. The training they needed was that failure is not all that bad. They were more worried about losing then getting excited about winning. Now that they've tasted red meat, it's a different story. But they never would have tried it if I hadn't made them. That's a paradox with the idea of boy led.