MattR

.. The kids that participate have a very wide range of program opportunities to pursue.  Go to  your local county fair and you'll find 4-H kids in the livestock pens, horse shows, art, cooking, sewing, and performance art display areas.  They have programs in citizenship and leadership and are expanding into science, robotics, etc.  On top of that they operate camps for kids that pick up many of the same things that kids in scouts can do (archery, shooting, swimming, boating, climbing, etc.)  ...  It's a solid 100-year old program.

Is it fair to say 4H is similar to Boy Scout merit badges, only they do it right? Rather than discuss and describe how to raise chickens, raise chickens.

Back out of the weeds... and trying to play nice.

If we had to use two words to describe God's shaping of man's morality, it would be "Baby Steps."

Here's one word: Exegesis. I think it's a fascinating subject.

I've noticed in this thread that examples of moral facts are all things people shouldn't do. That's very un scout like considering we're always trying to encourage scouts to do the right thing rather than punish them for doing the wrong thing. The idea of human dignity is one idea in the Bible (and probably all other religion's basic tenets) that has passed the test of time and been elevated, via exegesis, to the point where it can trump most other rules in the Bible.

Not me, I said Boy & Girls, 4-H, and YMCA.

Doh! My bad. Sorry Schiff.

Which begs the question. If the BSA and GSUSA are both losing kids and they have a wide range of uniforms, and 4H is growing (barely) then what's the difference?

Might be a reason their youth memberships are learger than BSA and continue to grow.

Who says girl scout membership is growing? It's currently 2.8M and was at a peak of 3.8M in 2003. At least those are the numbers I found.

I don't like the patches and bling on the uniforms so I asked my scouts if they'd be willing to wear their uniform to school if there was some special reason. They don't mind the patches. They said the only problem would be dealing with the kids that have no idea what scouts is about. Many students think the BSA is a Christian youth military organization. The scouts don't mind wearing their uniform at meetings and are fine with them on campouts that aren't too cold or warm. They just don't like being put in the middle of the culture war. The only problem we see is getting the scouts to wear the green pants. It's usually a case of kids growing too much.

Wouldn't kids with backpacks in Europe just fit in with the other 200,000 under 20s backpacking around? 

Sure, if you're in a train station. But we were out in the woods. We were worried about whether we were allowed to camp there. But this is the confusion of 16 year olds that knew about camping rules in the US but not in Europe. Another good story was we took a train to Italy to go to a US Army base for summer camp. The train got all messed up (this was Italy after all) and we got to spend the night in the Milan train station. At the time this was one of the more dangerous places to be. We put all the gear in a pile with the younger scouts sleeping on top of it and the parents and older scouts took turns watching over everything. I can't say that I got good leadership training but there was a certain amount of street smarts training.

My best friend and I wanted to go backpacking and we were the only older scouts in the troop so we decided to go on our own. Since we lived in Belgium there was nothing like a national forest or park. So we found the most wooded place we could on the lousy maps we had and had our parents drop us off. We weren't sure if what we were doing was illegal or not so we were paranoid about being caught. Our goal was to get to camp at dusk and not be seen. We would hide our packs using the best camo techniques we knew, scout out an area ahead of us, go back, get our gear, and move forward. In hind sight we were completely paranoid about nothing but it was an adventure. We hiked up this really steep ravine assuming nobody would be there. We finally made it to the top after a good challenge, happy that the harder it was the fewer people there would be. We made a small fire big enough to cook on but not visible. We set up camp and went to bed. The following morning was a wonderful sunny day, something unusual in Belgium. I went to take a leak and lo and behold there was some lady that must have been at least 70 walking her toy poodle. Turns out we had gone up the back side of a park up to an overlook and we set up our tent about 20 feet from a paved trail. We made a hasty retreat and never told our parents what had happened. The next year my friend moved and that was the end of scouts for me.

Coming up with a resource like the one you request would be an excellent Wood Badge ticket item!  

Yeah, well, I took Woodbadge to learn about boy led, I wanted to read the book, not write it.   But yes, that would have been a much better ticket than what I did.

All Scout Masters will tell you that their troop is boy run, and they are to some degree. But a troop can only be a boy run as the SM is willing to let it be.

The rubber hits the road when it comes to dealing with problems. Who finds them and who solves them will point to who's leading. That takes a lot of patience by the adults.

I did enjoy the Working The Patrol Method book and found it helpful in explaining boy-led to my Troop's committee.  

 

Stosh has a point with the boards. LOL!  You might make some enemies at first by keeping the adults at the edge of camp but they'll soon realize--with a little help from the SM--that the PLs are in charge!

That is one of the points I learned from this forum. There needs to be a very clear distinction between what the adults and scouts are responsible for. Without that the boys will tend to back down and the adults will tend to step in. Suddenly it's the adults. I also like the 300' idea. While it doesn't have to be 300' there needs to be separation between patrols in camping as well as what patrols do on campouts and meetings. It's similar to the 2x4 only it's for scouts. I guess 300' is softer than a 2x4. Recently I've been repeating the mantra that the PLs are responsible for delivering the promise of scouting to their patrols, with the promise being fun/outdoors/skills/advancement/adventure/service. It's not my job or the SPL's job. then I ask them what they need help with. The response has been great.

I don't know how you collect these ideas for the new guy trying to turn his troop around.

That's a really good question, as in I'd like to see a good answer. But I don't have one. Actually, you have two questions. The first is how to explain the benefits of boy led and the second is how to teach it.

Benefits: Boy led teaches the scouts responsibility, problem solving, and compassion. I don't see other youth activities that come close. While younger scouts mostly just want fun, older scouts also want purpose. Boy led provides that purpose.

Teaching/resources: There are resources that hint at what the issues are. SM specific training is very light on helping someone that hasn't seen it done right. The SPL and PL handbooks are not bad. The SM handbook is worthless. I found a book called A Scout Leader's Guide to Youth Leadership: Working the Patrol Method that helps a lot. It's full of stories and short ideas. It's a bit random and the writing is kind of jumpy. It's hard to pull out a hand full of ideas to focus on. One more resource is hitting the jack pot on this forum. There's lots of knowledge and experience here but if the answer requires more than a page or so then the person asking can get overwhelmed. That said, there are some great ideas I've gotten on this website that I haven't seen elsewhere.

So, to answer your question, there is no one resource for helping scouters that want to do their best. Since this is BSA's bread and butter, it's surprising.

Years ago the OA ran our camporees and it was the same thing every year. Some adults with a knack for making it fun took over and it's been much better. They take any and all ideas and help. One rut they have gotten into is that they end up with a bunch of stations that take 10-15 minutes to complete. So patrols move from station to station. Turns out the younger scouts like it and the older scouts don't. They'd rather do something that takes hours to complete. That's hard to do with 150 scouts, most of which don't have the patience or focus. So I've been encouraging the older scouts to do their own thing. Some help run stations, do OA stuff, or go hiking.

Barry, I saw that scouts shied away from scout skills or anything that requires practice as well. I said adventure and challenge is a scout method and so all campouts need one, their choice of what it is. It was a bit rough at first until they realized they could improve their skills and come back another day and do better. They do like the competitions. They also like to directly compete with other patrols. Competing against the clock or for some score doesn't work at all. That's where our camporees have a challenge. Some troop will also stack the deck and make super patrols to win. When the 11-14 year olds see a patrol of all 17 year olds, it kills their enthusiasm. Our solution is to have the scouts do the stations and have fun during the morning and in the afternoon figure out how to have fun on their own. They really like hanging out with their friends.

We have a real accountant for a treasurer. He came up with a real budget based on the past several years and it includes everything including budgeted major items. We've had a few people try and do this before but with no luck. It was surprisingly difficult to figure out where our money went until our current treasurer organized everything. Our dues are $70/year and that covers national, boys life, cohs, adults, gear and 50% training (first aid, woodbadge, sm, etc). We have scout accounts that can only be used for scout events and scouts pay food, fees, and sometimes gas for events. I would like to see how much scouting costs for a scout and compare it to other activities.

It's just time for some good news.

The weather at our campout was fine until Saturday afternoon when a wind storm came in and started blowing tents all over. I was starting a SMC with one scout right before the wind picked up and the rain came. I told him the SMC would be delayed. All the new scouts were screaming part in fun and part  fear.  The scout tents were rolling, and folding, and just having a bad time because they were not staked down correctly or the stakes were pulling up from the wind and soft ground. I did not want to risk destroyed tents making this a teachable moment so I grab our ammo can full of heavy stakes and a big stick and start staking down tents correctly. All of a sudden the SMC scout was next to me asking if he could help. I said sure, grab a stick and start staking down tents. Given I just had surgery he did a lot more than I did. After the storm ended and we resumed the SMC I asked him why he came out to help. He said he was curious as to what I was doing and figured it was the right thing to do. It has taken him 3 years to get to First Class so I asked him what his goals are in scouts. He paused, like he had never thought of this, and said he wants to get Eagle. I asked him why, another pause, and he said he just wants to be an Eagle scout. Good enough for me. Then we went and looked at who and what got wet, along with what tent poles broke. The new scouts were the only ones with problems. Some of the older scouts saw what I was asking and just took over. I backed off and let them go with it. Everyone ended up in dry clothes and dry sleeping bags. The next moring it was all blue skies and big smiles. All the new scouts thought the campout was awesome, and for 4 of them this was their first campout. We do thorns and roses at the end of each campout and I asked the scouts to include what they were thankful for. I was with the new scout patrol and several scouts said they were thankful for "whoever came and staked down my tent," or "the scout that gave me dry pants."

It was just one of those campouts that recharged my enthusiasm. I wish I could bottle this and show it to all the naysayers. There is something magical about scouting.

And I thought Pandora was a music server.

As for what the new rules will likely be ...

Is making someone sing for a lost item Helpful?  Friendly?  Courteous?  KIND???  

 

Yes, it can be. Do a google search on "benefits teasing." There are a number of people that study social interactions. In a nutshell, teasing can be a form of play where kids learn social skills and/or bond. It's also a way for some to ensure social norms in a positive manner. In every one of those articles they also say it can go too far. I can see where people don't like that risk because it is a fine line. Sometimes the kids are learning where that line is.

I've noticed that kids with siblings tend to have a head start on social skills compared to kids without siblings. How much of that is teasing? My kids are very close and enjoy teasing each other, and me. There's no power struggle. There are a couple of ASMs in my troop that tease each other about being wimps/lazy/out of shape/too old. They are both incredible athletes that are encouraging each other in a fun way.

At our last meeting there was one new scout that was unsure about going to summer camp. He's a shy kid. I asked him, encouraged him, told him all the fun things he could do. Not sure. Obviously he doesn't trust me. Near the end of the meeting the SPL pulled out a box of leftover gear and everyone that had something came up in front of the troop. And the new scout had to dance. Based on this thread I watched this scout closely. He did fine. This time they all danced at the same time. Big cheers afterwards. Anyway, by the end of the meeting I asked him if he wanted to go to summer camp. "Yes!" There was also a fun game and the troop guides are great, and that's probably why he's going, but certainly the dancing didn't hurt and he appeared to be having fun. He trusts the scouts in the troop more than me. I'm OK with that.

I don't think it can be guaranteed that all scouts will be given a fair shake with a SM who abuses the advancement requirement.

Are there any guarantees? Maybe you mean to say a significant number of adults will abuse this. But how many abuse the patrol method? There's risk in a lot of what we do. We're trying to encourage teenagers after all. That's an explosive mixture. I will agree that national treats us the way they don't want us to treat the scouts: It's better to micromanage than to train, trust, and let them be.

As for the evolution/creation argument, it's great. The creationists are doing a better job of keeping the scientists honest than the scientists. Everyone says the options are only DNA/sex or Intelligent Design. Maybe there are other options Who knows, maybe symbiotic relationships can just turn into new species. Maybe the truth is that nature is guaranteed to create intelligent life. Ever wonder why water is so unique? Maybe there are coded programs, much like DNA but not organic, that work on DNA to create mutations. Maybe I read too much sci-fi, but who says aliens aren't part of the mix? The one constant that scientists have given us is that nature is always much deeper than we think. Enjoy the ride.

I have to tell a story first to show how much things have changed.

My first campout with the boy scouts was called an initiation campout. We were told there would be some challenges. When we got to camp scouts would slowly give out more details. It would be Saturday night, we would be blindfolded and have to make our way around camp, there was a rope bridge we had to cross, they thought someone had tightened it, it was 60 feet above the ground, it was 60 feet above a raging river, not many scouts fell off, very few died .... It was a ghost story made to scare us. I was scared. I was scared so much that some older scout took notice, pulled me aside and told me to not tell anyone else but in fact it was all a story to scare us. That older scout will forever be in my memory as a great scout that was looking out for me. But, he didn't tell me everything. We did go out on the requisite snipe hunt that, honestly, was simple fun given that there were no bridges or rivers to deal with. Then they let us into the cabin one at a time after we banged on the door and asked to be let into the troop. I was the last one. Still blindfolded, I was set down on my knees before a bench. They took off my blind fold just as someone with a glowing red hot branding iron walked in front of me. He walked around behind me, someone lifted up my shirt, and just as this guy stuck this branding iron into a bucket of water someone else put an ice cube on my back. I jumped and screamed for the first 100ms. I then figured out what happened and the biggest smile ever came across my face. Everyone in the troop cheered. The rest of the night involved retelling stories of how scared everyone was. Yes, I was scared. I was not humiliated. Humiliation requires people that are degrading, belittling, and shaming someone. Nobody was doing that to me. Sure, they were making up a huge lie, but they were also looking out for me and I never once felt that anyone was laughing at me. Some people pay to go to haunted houses or watch scary movies and I got scared for free. I will never forget that story. It's a good memory. I'm sure some of you are aghast but it was a good time had by all. My point is that some things are not so simple.

While, qualitatively, people think all embarrassment is evil, maybe it's not. First of all, there are different levels of embarrassment. Humiliation and mortification are just higher levels of the same thing. I'm not interested in humiliating or mortifying any scouts over anything. Next, there are different responses to other people's embarrassment. It turns out that embarrassment is a good indication that a person is a good team player and interested in the well being of others. People also respond to the embarrassment of others based on their level of compassion. A kind person will have empathy for the embarrassed person and will likely help them in the future. All people tend to trust those that are easily embarrassed. Those that don't easily get embarrassed don't care much for social norms. Finally, learning to deal with embarrassment is an important skill for the shy. Unfortunately, the only way to do that is to get embarrassed. So, in my view, a little bit of embarrassment for a truly minor transgression can help the social dynamics all the way around and can be a teachable moment if controlled. Some scouts learn compassion and some learn to just let it go. I'm sure many of you disagree but we may have to agree to disagree on this.

I'll admit that I'm talking to all of you a lot more about this than my PLC so I'll change that. Thanks for listening.

It doesn't matter. But, if the scout believes in God maybe these words will encourage him. Or maybe the person that wrote the scout oath was encouraged by those words. I'm not stating there's an if and only if relationship here. I'm sure the Dalai Lama has his own meaning and words that are similar to the scout oath. Whatever encourages people to be better people I'm all for. I brought this up because a bunch of people were talking about a phrase in the Bible that has deeper meaning than Pack's knees.

Perhaps evolution Is his way, still can work on those kneecaps for Packsaddle.. (Got your back Packsaddle.)

 

So are you saying I take after God with my winning personality?  My sunny disposition? My singing talent? (plug your ears)  My love of chocolate? My poise & grace? (Ha)..

Here's one interpretation of In God's Image. It's not about comparing yourself to God. If everyone is created in God's image then the question is how should we treat everyone? Possibly the same way we treat God, and the same way God treats us. To help other people at all times comes to mind.

So I guess we can't have patrol competitions anymore because some patrol has to come in last place, and that's embarrassing. A year ago my SPL couldn't start a fire in the fire competition. He said that was the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to him as a scout. He went home and practiced how to build a fire. He's quite good at it now. The other night we had a knot tying competition and the older scouts (all star and above) were judges. I told them ahead of time if they didn't know the knots I'd embarrass them in front of the troop. Then I asked them if they needed any help with any of the knots. They took me up on it and we reviewed the bowline and sheet bend. Not only did they review the knots they did a great job with the younger scouts. Yes, embarrassment is a form of pain, but for anyone that thinks there is no pain used in learning, look at grades. Everyone knows who gets A's and who gets F's. It used to be that C was average. Well, we can't have average anymore because that would be embarrassing. And we wonder where, as many of you call it, "pencil whipped" Eagle scouts come from.

Someone asked if the dancing in my troop actually helps. It does. Scouts will notice when they're missing something and they'll start asking around for it. And they'll get help finding it. Someone else asked if I'd dance for lost stuff at work. I'd be all over it as it would be a great way to bring some levity. Besides, I've done it before so it's not a big deal. My wife and I have a running joke about who has most recently lost reading glasses. How can you not laugh at it. I've danced for a couple of things in my troop and the scouts absolutely love it. I've also seen some scouts come out of their shell when they find out that dancing isn't nearly as hard as it looks. I hate to say this but it's a lot easier to be forced to dance for 5 seconds in front of a bunch of other boys then at the school gym where there are girls watching. Talk about embarrassment.

The real issue here isn't whether singing or dancing is hazing, it's whether the other scouts understand Friendly, Courteous, and Kind. For the extroverted older scouts it's fair game to make fun of their style. I never see any scouts say anything but great things about how the younger scouts dance. I can see that malicious kids could use something like this to degrade someone, and maybe there are a lot of kids like that in troops that some of you have seen, but I don't see it in my troop. If I did I'd stop the dancing and we'd talk about the Scout Law right then. We've had our share of kids that think that just because the adults aren't around they can play Lord of the Flies, but that tends to stop quickly when the other scouts stop it, or bring it to me. From there we have a teachable moment.

While there's certainly a chance for abuse, I find the benefits worth it. I hear over and over again that kids join our troop because our scouts are the most welcoming of the local troops. I've never had an issue with retention on JTE. Of course, I also allow scouts to climb on rocks that are more than waist high. I also allow scouts to run in camp. Yes, some of them get hurt. But how many threads have we had about allowing kids to get hurt once in a while? Kids cut themselves with knives and come back. Kids get cold and come back. And yes, kids get embarrassed, but they still come back.

When I started as SM our scouts left their stuff all over camp. Summer camp was a nightmare. I could ask them till I was blue in the face to pick up their stuff, to no avail. My son's 6tth grade teacher would dance with kids that were doing something they weren't supposed to do so I figured why not. An 11 year old dancing around the room with his teacher. Talk about embarrassment. We do a Mexican hat dance for lost items. The scouts sing the song and the boy dances. Any scout that tells the spl they can't find something before we do the dancing will not have to dance. Any scout that is looking shy is accompanied by the SPL. Adults have to dance as well. It is all done for the fun of everyone. There is no judging or requirements. If a scout just stands there while everyone else sings that's fine as well. To the people that say this is hazing, it can also be looked at as learning to deal with a problem. It also teaches the other scouts how to treat someone that has a problem. The boys in my troop treat the scouts with problems in a kind and courteous way. They watch the scout that's dancing because they know it's embarrassing. There is absolutely no malicious, repeated behavior, that is required to be called bullying. Does anyone play cross sticks around the fire, or any of a number of games where the only rule is to figure out the rules? Are you telling me that's not embarrassing? That's worse because you have to solve the puzzle before you can tease the other scouts that haven't figured it out. If scouts get really frustrated with it someone will pull them aside and give them a hint. And what about smoke shifters and sky hooks? Now I can't send kids out looking for left handed blue metallic telescoping smoke shifters because someone thinks it's hazing. You watch how the scout reacts and if it's gone too far you stop it. And all the scouts see you do that and they learn something. It's not hazing, it's problem solving. Is it honestly any different than burning the pancakes? You made a mistake, you take your lumps, and you move on. That's life. There's a point where we have to stop protecting them, and letting an 11 year old do a 5 second dance for a lost item is a good stepping stone. Now imagine the 17 year old that did his Eagle project without first getting all the signatures and being told he has to do the whole thing again. Talk about lumps. Part of my job is to create problems for scouts and patrols to solve. Then I help them make good decisions about how to solve them. This is just a fun way to do that.

Thanks for the feedback. In a way I've been doing this for a long time. An older scout never helps out, I sit down with him and tell him I'll never sign off unless he changes, his eyes get very large, and we have a discussion that leads to the scout helping out and eventually getting eagle. The only scout that has not made Eagle after a discussion like this is the one that brought weed to summer camp. Some scouts have grudgingly gone along but most have made the best of it and had a good time. At the same time I really don't like doing this because it's a lot of stress for me and the scout. That's why I like the idea of telling all scouts up front that as long as you're a candidate for star, life, or eagle then you should keep track of how you're giving service to the troop. That would make everything easier on everyone.

This might be a bit off topic but I am interested in this. I have a problem with POR's in general, for older scouts. Shouldn't they just be expected to help out with the program? If they have a POR then fine but that's such a short period. I despise the attitude of I don't need the POR so I don't have to help out. I'd like to ask every scout coming in for a SMC for a higher rank what he's done to help the troop. It would be great to see him pull out a list of things he's done beyond what the POR requires. Helped run an event, taught younger scouts some skills, mc'd a camp fire. I'd like to see them do something once a month. It doesn't have to be a lot. This falls under scout spirit. Is this OK to do?

I still find the light text on a light background in a light colored venue to be too light.  I really find, as I think about it, I preferred the darker, brighter, more "definite" format of the last version of our discussion set-up.  

 

Am I alone in this perception?

I mentioned this before as well. I have a laptop and if I adjust the angle of the display I can make it easier to read. Someone mentioned adjusting contrast, but I can't do that on my display.

I'm happy to see the spell check working. All in all, this is much nicer than previous versions.

Part of me agrees with Barry. In my prayer book is a quote in a footnote that I really like. It says Judaism is a matter of the heart. Reform Judaism views the messianic age as a goal we should work towards, where violence and poverty are no more. It's an impossible goal that is still worth striving for. That's a contradiction for the mind, but not the heart. So is following the scout law. The scout law is an ideal we'll never reach but that we should always strive for. So having an absolute such as God, even if we can never reach it, is good training that works well with the Scout Law.

On the other hand I disagree with Barry. Interpretations of the meanings of the bible do change. The changes can not be quick and not just anyone can make changes to suit their needs. There is a process that slows changes down and requires consensus of past ideas and present scholars. Look at the interpretation of the story of Jacob. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have very different views of that story. Many Christians view Jacob as similar to Christ. Jews don't see it that way. Same God, different interpretations of what the Bible says.

I'll bump this topic.

I like the idea of having levels of MBs. Scouts need increasing goals to keep them interested. By making them so an 13 year old can do them means by the time a scout is 17 he's bored with MBs and they are nothing but a time sink.  Grouping them into water sports or STEM is something to think about.

I like the idea of making First Class mean more than it does now. I'm not sure how to do that other than getting rid of FCFY and also doing better training for adults on what this means. Adding the old req to take your patrol on a campout would be great.

I don't like the idea of removing Star, Life, and Eagle. The Eagle project in our troop is a great challenge that most scouts would not do unless they had to. I wouldn't mind rewriting some of the requirements regarding service and responsibility. Using the higher level MBs for higher ranks would be nice.

I absolutely hate the idea of naming one of the levels PhD. That makes the Boy Scouts look like idiots to anyone that knows what a PhD is about. The "PhD of commissioner science" is embarrassing. Please use bronze, silver, and gold, or star, life, and eagle, or valley, timberline, and peak, or ....