MattR

AZMike, that was interesting. Thanks. I guess I am part of the approximately 60% who weren't retained by the Presbyterians, lol.

Do you think the majority of leaders who ask boys about their faith, even in the manner suggested in the guide, will have that level of understanding, or if they do, be able to apply it?

There seems to be two simple ideas the adults need to understand. One is fully accepting the part of Reverent that includes respecting the beliefs of others. The second is understanding how fragile it is for the typical teenager. If it's explained well I think the majority of scouters will do well with it. My only fear is that National has this fantastic way of muddying up this subject.

I'll tell you what, get AZMike to rewrite this topic for National and Pack can incorporate it into his satiric, online "How not to run a SMC."

Is that is all about, you want to allow families who believe god is a rock? Shesh, sure bring him in and move on. Unlike the atheist, I can see the oath and law working for him, I think. 

 

That being said, I would have a lot of concern for the mental stability of a scout who had such a belief and I might consider it abuse by the parent who encouraged him. But then, I had experience with very thing while I was a SM, so maybe it's just me.

 

Barry

Of course it's silly, but it's a start. I honestly doubt if a boy will look at a rock and say that's god. More likely he'll look across the ocean, or a mountain valley, or the Milky Way, and say there must be something. I'd say that's a great place to be.

While I don't like the Rock or the Meatball, not accepting it puts us in the position of judging the beliefs of others. Given that religion can be such a long journey, I don't see judging a young man's beliefs as helping him if he's just getting started.

I agree with Fred. It's a whole lot easier to have a discussion if Religion of the Rock (Dome of the Rock, anyone?) is allowed. I'd much rather encourage a young man to figure it out on his own or with his family, with no strings attatched. Maybe a scout is sick of hearing fire and brimstone sermons and decides the Milky Way is more peaceful. So he comes up with his own beliefs. Years later, because of his history with scouts, he volunteers and meets a cleric that more closely matches his beliefs and he finds a congregation he likes. Worked for me. Sometimes it just takes faith in the boys.

We had a kid eat a peanut and when I asked him where his epi pin was he said he forgot to bring it. We were an hour from the nearest hospital. We gave him benadryl. He threw it up. We gave him more. Another kid did have an epi pin and I asked for it. He was smaller so I assumed the dose would be less. I was only going to use it if I really had to. We met an ambulance half way to the town and they took over from there. They told us we did the right thing. They also told us epi pins are not a solution, they are a temporary fix. I don't know why benadryl is not a standard first aid kit item. We put it in ours.

What kind of open ended questions do people ask boys to get them to talk about Reverent or Duty to God? Do you preface it with anything? For example: "I'm not here to tell you what to believe" or "different people have different ideas about this."

Just as in first aid we shouldn't go beyond our training, but I don't mind the intent of these "changes." The only change I see is national micromanaging things.

This just seems like one more in a long line of micromanaging the program. Instead of helping leaders understand how to make the patrol method work we get JTE. Instead of helping us have a discussion that could honestly help a boy grow we get a vague check box. I would certainly like more guidance but I'm not seeing that.

Some leaders will do well by this and some will abuse it. For the obvious situations most leaders will know how to handle it but there will certainly be cases where they are ill prepared. Unfortunately, the boys with the most to gain will likely be the ones that are hurt by this. It doesn't matter if it's Brave or Reverent, if a boy says he's not sure an adult has a delicate situation to work with.

My son aged out and I stayed. I enjoy it and am trying to get better at it. I still have fun, so I stay. We have some other adults that also stick around but don't do nearly as much as I do. Several have told me they will stick around as long as I do.

If someone was showing the level of passion for this that I have I'd ask them if they wanted to be SM, and I'd give it to them if they wanted it. I've asked lots of people if they want to be SM and it's surprising how quickly they say no. I also am constantly asking parents what they think is right. Whenever they mostly disagree with me I'll ask more questions to find out what I'm doing wrong. Usually, however, the response is "you do what you think is right and I'll back you," or "my son will listen to you before he listens to me, so please just do what you think is right." I've never felt such responsibility. I'm also all ears when new people with new ideas show up. We learn to respect each other.

So, I don't think it has anything to do with old guys are no good or new guys are better. I think it depends on the person.

We use 3 buckets by patrol: soap, rinse, bleach. Someone mentioned something about steritabs (?) to replace bleach. When we go on real cold campouts we will have a centralized place to heat water with a high output burner, as the stoves don't have enough heat to boil water when it's below zero and above 7000 feet.

Our scouts are good at using the 3 buckets but for some reason they can't seem to keep the oil, soap, and bleach containers from making a mess out of their patrol boxes. The QM collects them after the campout and we put them in a different container. This drives me nuts and I'd rather say screw the lids on tight and wash the bottles after each use, or take your patrol box home and clean it there. Instead we have this arcane procedure to deal with and I can't believe anyone else have the problems we have. What kind of containers do people use for soap and oil? How do you deal with this?

I don't know why everyone thinks lodge is so great. If you can find old cast iron it's better because someone sanded down the bumps, which Lodge doesn't do. So I went and sanded down my skillet. It is much easier to use now. A big dirty mess but worth it.

About flax seed oil. Be warned that's for seasoning, not for day to day use. Flax seed oil has a very low burn point, which is good for seasoning but bad for cooking. Some people have a lot of luck with flax seed oil for seasoning and some do not. I don't. Some people swear by saturated fats. Some swear by unsaturated fats. Seasoning cast iron is a whole subject on its own.

I've never heard of using bee wax. I've only had cast iron go rancid if they aren't wiped out as clean as can be. But wax might be easier for scouts to work with.

Any chance you can increase the contrast on the dates of threads? It's faded first if the mouse isn't over the thread box, and second just because. Consequntly it's not easy to read.

I was a scout brat, in the Transatlantic Council. I hung out with all the Army brats.

One size does not fit all, either good or bad. This is where bad things come from.

That's a great photo. It should accompany the article that is sent to the local newspaper about the cool things scouts do. Look mom! Rock climbing in a missile silo!

After experience we look for two things in a treasurer. The first is competence at working with a zillion details and keeping them organized. The other is transparency, or making it so everyone can understand those details. That helps catch errors, including the malicious kind. We didn't have malicious problems but we did go from being very flush to almost broke in 2 months. Accounting errors that caused all sorts of head aches. If your pack is large and lots of money is coming and going then I'd push for one person doing it, assuming you can find the one person that's capable. It has nothing to do with whether you trust the CC, it's just that he has plenty of other things to do.

Oh, and welcome to the forums.

We had a PLC meeting this week and I kept it in terms of talking about what the scouts did, or will do, to deliver scouting to their patrols. So, it was completely about the people and not the usual who has to do what. It raised the level of discussion and their interest immensely. Call it leadership if you want but it was really about keeping the scouts focused on the real goal. I "redirected" anyone that said something that wasn't about their patrol. If a scout said he was going to make phone calls I asked him what the end purpose was and that making phone calls is only a tool unless his patrol said they like talking on the phone.

Fehler: Yes, the QM is mostly a managerial position, not a leadership one, but that doesn't mean the QM can't be a leader as well. If each patrol has a QM and the troop QM is working with them to help deliver the necessary equipment and makes sure the patrol QM's are successful, he is providing leadership to that small group.

If instead of calling it leadership skills we call it working with people skills, most POR's have that. Before the QM puts the dutch oven back in storage he inspects it for being clean and if it's not he can either clean it himself or he has a people problem. I just saw a scout this past weekend in a very similar situation. He didn't want to "be the mean scout." He's very confident at doing tasks. Not so much working with people. Leadership skills would help in this situation. Understanding tough love would also help.

I asked this same scout if he'd be willing to do exactly what Stosh mentions (working with the troop to develop patrol QMs). This would be a way for this scout to grow. For every single suggestion I had he came back with lots of reasons why it would never work. I couldn't figure it out until I saw him in the above situation. Scouts 3 years younger walked all over him.

There are plenty of "leadership vs management" descriptions on the web. One idea is that leaders focus on people while managers focus on tasks. Focusing on people brings them together with a common vision, or takes care of them in Stosh's words. Focusing on tasks means get things done, with less concern on how it impacts the people. They both have tasks to do but the leader is more interested in how those tasks impact people. Obviously people would rather follow a leader than a manager. The two groups have different personalities. Leaders are going for the big picture and are willing to take risks whereas managers are more risk adverse. Leaders do it for excitement while managers do it for $10/hr.

I have a new QM that fits the leadership model. After years of just trying to get anyone to do the bare minimum we have a scout that we can't get out of the way fast enough. But it's nothing we did. This scout just wants to lead.

The challenge I run into with scouts is getting the scouts to be willing to have an impact on other scouts. Most 13 year olds are trapped by peer pressure to never rock the boat. It's a lot easier to do as you're told than to figure out what's right and that's a big hump to get them over. I want patrol leaders to focus on delivering the promise of scouting to their patrol. What I don't know is how to change the rewards to encourage that. In all honesty a patrol leader can have zero impact on a patrol and the patrol can still have some fun camping. The scouts have enough experience to muddle through and they're used to it. I'd like to sit down with the PLC each month and ask them what they want to do that will have an impact on their patrol, and then give them credit if they make an honest go of it.

DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER. I just lived through something that started off just like this. Hopefully your case is different. I had a very smooth talking narcissist. Unbelievable experience. All talk, no walk. Complete disregard for any rules or authority. He lied and lied with all sorts of reasons why we prevented him from doing what he volunteered to do. And just the nicest guy. He could sell ice in the Arctic. The very long story short is he harassed and bullied adults in the troop to the point where we threw him out. Even his son was picking up on this, but that was probably because he was paid for two months of cell phone coverage for each rank advancement. He's a creeper.

It might not be as bad for you but it will be bad if your guy becomes SM. Is there someone else that is willing to be SM? I bet this guy is one smooth talker and it's possible the SM has bought into his BS hook line and sinker. If the other adults are drinking the kool aid I'd be prepared to leave. However, try confronting him. I'm serious. Not by email but in front of the other adults. Bullies don't like that. It doesn't need to be mean. But just ask him why he hasn't done X, Y, and Z when he said he'd do these things. When the excuses come out call him on them. Be polite, but hold his feet to the fire. "No, that's not what happened, we were all in that meeting and you did not volunteer to help anyone." It is harsh but this guy might be counting on everyone being nice to him. Also, I'd talk to the SM and other adults to see what they think.

I hope I'm way off base but your story brings up bad memories.

Good job Click. I'm glad it worked out. I honestly didn't see a good scenario here but you probably found the best one.

Relevant trivia: one definition of the word Israel is to struggle with God.

+1 Stosh: a uniform will help visibility.

+1 Sentinel: The BSA "field" uniform is really a dress uniform, and an activity uniform should be worn for campouts. I didn't know this was national's idea.

I went to scoutstuff.org looking for an official activity uniform and there isn't one. I saw references on the web to a red polo that Stosh mentions, but it is no more. I think it went out with the arrival of the Centennial uniform. What I did find are what looks like some really good shirts for the outdoors. They are simple T-shirts or polos that are the khaki or forest green. They are made of non-cotton (TrekTek?). They have a simple BSA logo on the chest. Youth sizes are $10, adults are $14. I'm going to get one for this weekend's campout.

But the original topic was visibility and, honestly, selling what scouts is about to the public. What we are is fun, adventure, and service, but the photos imply pomp and formality. (Sentinel, I googled "US boy scouts" as well as "UK scouts" and "French scouts"). Just look at the top page of the US boy scouts google image results and tell me the BSA doesn't have a horrible image problem. On the first page there are 12 images of scout emblem clip art, 2 Norman Rockwell images, 2 references to membership problems, 5 images of scouts saluting, 2 jamboree images, and a scout showing off his bling at a COH. This is not inviting to a kid. The first picture of anyone having fun is about 3 pages down after more flags, clip art, saluting, bling, membership issues, and a "cult of death"/gestapo reference about some homeland security/BSA thing. Look at French or UK scouts and it's all fun. Even the picture with the Duchess (Kate) has everyone smiling. It's very inviting.

I'm glad you're comfortable in the uniform Stosh, I am not. I really like the idea of a uniform. I'd wear it all the time at scout events if it were more practical. It's not the idea of the uniform, it's the uniform itself that's a problem. Honestly, what do we need epaulettes for?

Skip, it's supposedly some sort of hi tech fabric ("supplex nylon" or "polyester microfiber"). The issue for me is the weight of the fabric. It doesn't breathe at all.

... The boy doesn't have to design the landscaping' date=' just guide the groups in doing what the plan says....[/quote']

 

​We would likely not accept a landscape project that the scout didn't design. Our reasoning is if someone else figured out the plan then all the scout is doing is providing labor, which is the dreaded mid level management. But if a scout designs the plan, he really is in charge of everything. He comes up with the plan while working with the benefactor, presents it to them and the troop, then does it. Since the benefactor wants assurances of what it is then they will want more than "I'll do the landscaping." It's no different than hiring someone to do landscaping. Or better yet, it's just like a service project. People doing most service projects usually have to figure out most of the details.

I'm with Skip on this one. Ask the scouts what they want. The fact that we have to iron our uniform suggests it doesn't belong outdoors.

​I googled for scout pictures in the US, UK, and France. The UK and French pictures all have lots of pictures of generally happy kids and a few of Kate and Bear. Grylls is saying "Every kid deserves an adventure." On the US side there are also some happy kid pictures but also lots of pictures of old out of shape scouters, bored kids saluting, plenty of trail life usa photos, and several other controversial pictures (guns, gays, Madonna, etc). There are also lots of pictures of patches. So, UK kids have adventures and US kids salute. There certainly is an image problem.

My guess is our scouts know it and that's why they don't want to wear a uniform. They like adventure so they like wearing the class B's. Those represent adventure. I wonder if we have pushed Eagle so much that it's the major reason for being in scouts. It's not an adventure, it's a patch.

Whenever I start getting down about scouts I get away from the adults and spend more time with the boys. Cheers me right up. It's what they do best.

We mostly ignore what's in the workbook except that there be a plan. If what they're doing is a collection then I also ask for a goal. The plan is to force the scout to think things through enough such that when things go wrong he can figure out how to adapt. It also sets expectations as to the scope of the project. If the plan is "I will plant some trees" then I'll ask for more detail. How many trees and what size. What I don't want is a scout planting two trees that each came in a 2 gallon pot (i.e., a half hour of work for one person). I've had scouts redo their project. It's not like they came in 2% shy of their goal. It was more like 95% shy. If they're half of what they said they'd get then it's more a question of was the short fall from lack of leadership or just bad luck. Bad luck I understand. Not calling anyone to show up and help is bad leadership. Other times they've just dropped what was the biggest component. It's not just the parents but also the recipient that doesn't understand that this is more than a service project.

My main job at an eagle project is to ask adults to back off and let the scout lead. They are usually very receptive to this.