Lisabob

Not disagreeing with you, Neil. My point was that it doesn't matter too much WHY the boy says "I want to be an Eagle Scout," because in honesty, the boy probably doesn't really know what that entails anyway. Most webelos crossing into boy scouts don't. And that's ok. My point was more that, as a parent, Daddy_O needs to ensure that HE isn't taking his kid's statement and turning it into the singular focal point of his son's scouting experience. If the parent understands more about the process then he'll be better able to encourage his son to get all that he can out of scouting, along the way, regardless of the rank thing.

"He isn't the registered merit badge counselor for camping - can he do this as scout master? " Short answer: NO. Slightly longer answer: That fact might not stop him. At that point, it might fall on your district and/or council advancement committee to intervene, which may or may not happen. Somewhat off-on-a-tangent answer: It seems logical that most SMs could be camping MBCs. Maybe the better approach here is to get the guy registered so that he can legitimately sign off on this badge.

Just read your last post. You know, most 10-11 year olds have no idea what is involved in being an Eagle scout. It is, at best, an aspirational goal, like when they're 5 and say "I want to be an astronaut!" Nothing wrong with that and no reason to actively discourage it either. But, as I hope you've seen from the various responses, there's a lot involved in getting to Eagle, and it is more about the journey than the destination. Many 10-11 year olds aren't ready to understand that, which is ok, but as a parent, you should understand that so you can encourage your kid to enjoy his time along the way.

Daddy_O, please take a careful look at the minimum advancement requirements that are directly related to camping. If getting to Eagle is really your son's goal (his goal, not yours) then he will need to spend a lot of time outdoors. You can view the various rank requirements in full here: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsranks.asp Even if you find the most Eagle-Mill type troop in your area (and I think you are seriously cheating your boy of the whole point of being a boy scout by doing that), he is still going to have to put in serious outdoor time to earn any boy scout ranks. Boy Scouting is an outdoor program. While different troops deliver the program in different ways, the point is that they ALL camp and the majority of their activities will be outdoor-oriented. ---------------- Aside from the camping issue, many boy scout rank requirements include the words "show" or "demonstrate." These skill requirements mean that a boy is going to need to practice in order to attain proficiency. And guess what, a lot of the practice occurs outside. Things like cooking for his patrol while on a campout, pitching his own tent and sleeping in it while on a campout, safely using a knife, axe, and saw, building fires, hiking, identifying flora and fauna, etc., require repeated outdoor exposure and practice. ------------------------------------------- And then there's the leadership aspect. The upper ranks all require that your son actively fulfill some position of responsibility (there's a list of accepted positions) for a period of time. Some of these positions are elected by the other boys, and they're just not going to vote in a kid who is never there to participate. Others are appointed, but even so, you cannot lead when you are not physically there. In most troops, a boy who is perceived as doing the bare minimum to get by (which you have stated is your intent for your son's participation), isn't going to get those positions until he changes his approach to things. --------------------------------------------------- Boy scouting is not like cub scouting. The weekly troop meetings are not entertainment. Those meetings are not "just show up, do the activity, and you'll receive a pin/badge/patch" as they often are in cub scouts. They are typically spent working on preparation for upcoming OUTDOOR activity. They might include working on certain skills needed for the next adventure, or on menu and itinerary planning for the next trip, etc. For a boy who plans not to do most of the outdoor stuff, the weekly (indoor) meetings might be fairly pointless and boring. If what people here are describing is not what your son wants, then consider joining the YMCA, a religious youth group, the Boys & Girls Club, 4-H, or some other worthy youth program. There are many excellent ones out there besides Boy Scouts. Just don't expect your boy to be able to earn Boy Scouting's highest rank without seriously doing the things that Boy Scouts are all about. And don't expect people who are involved in Boy Scouting to think that what you are looking to do makes much sense.

Wow. I've never heard of that either. Will have to try it!

Well. I feel I simply must correct one last statement of Kudu's. It is widely accepted that the BobWhites are the best of all Wood Badge patrols.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You've temporarily spared me from the drudgery of grading exams. Sibling Atom Bomb of Forgiveness

District training? What district training? Seriously, I've been involved on and off with our district for about 5 years and not one time has anybody mentioned anything about district training. A different council offered commissioner training and I found out about it and went on my own, just so I could better understand what UCs were really supposed to do, but that's it. Seriously, is there really training out there for district committee folks, and is it any good? In general, yes I agree. The transition between unit and district/council is a challenge. More so when no guidance is provided, and when the folks "above" you don't have much of a structure or clue either, and when the units are so used to an anemic district staff that any attempt on the part of new district volunteers to act differently (read, engage the units) raises hackles.

Hold on now. That was not an attack on Kudu. Actually I think Kudu has a lot of very helpful information about how to run a scouting program that appeals to boys. While his "100 feet/300 feet" thing gets old sometimes and isn't a panacea, I frequently find that I agree with his basic point that adults need to get the heck out of the way of the kids and that really utilizing the patrol method is important. His anti-Wood Badge stuff has no relevance to the original poster's question though. The poster is trying to figure out whether boy scouts is the right program for his kid, not what the politics of Wood Badge are. That's all I'll say. Happy Scouting.

This is going to take some time and a lot of patience. So this SM feels the BSA regs are "garbage." You may not be able to change his mind. But keep talking to people about the real requirements. Maybe some other folks in the same troop will start to ask some pointed questions of this particular SM. Make sure you point out to people in general terms that if they blatantly add to requirements and a boy challenges the SM's refusal to grant a SM Conference on that basis, the troop will lose the appeal. Work with the training folks to ensure that leaders who go to training sessions get the "no adding to or subtracting from the requirements" bit drilled into their skulls. Keep tabs with the unit commissioners and ask them to help you get the message out to troops about this. You might not be successful right away. In fact you may never convince this fellow. But that doesn't mean you can't serve the district well.

Daddy_O, you should be aware that some posters have agendas and will use any excuse to push them. Kudu is one of those posters. Kudu, please don't hijack this thread.

I too have many fond memories of campfires, some with planned programs and some more spontaneous. Our guys seldom do this and I don't really know why. They always have a great time when they do, but usually it takes either a scout who is working on his communications MB (planning/running a campfire is one option for a requirement) or an adult to step in and offer to run one. Maybe it just seems like yet another thing to do in an already-packed weekend? Maybe, because they don't have much experience planning one, they don't really know what to do? My son's troop has about 45 boys. While we're at it, can we broaden this to include Cub packs? Our cub pack rarely had any sort of campfire. When a few of us adults started pushing for a campfire program as part of our kick-off and recruiting events, they were extremely well-received.

Beavah writes: "Come, come. There is nothing at all in this troop's behavior to suggest that." Sure there is Beavah - look at all the times meetings have been postponed, emails and phone calls have been ignored, the boy has been told "not now," etc. Taken individually, each of those times might even be reasonable but together it starts to look like a pattern. I do agree that somebody somewhere in this troop does appear to have figured out the proper appeals procedure but there are also a bunch of what could certainly be construed as delaying tactics here. Hopefully this won't be one of them.

Huh? FYI, I'm a liberal Democrat. And a Scouter. I say both proudly. And I am pretty sure I am not the only one.

I don't think you've over-stepped the lines. Stepping across the lines is when you start previewing all of his messages or plans, when you start making the calls for him, when you announce his project - but not other Eagle projects - repeatedly to the troop, etc. Obviously I don't know your son, but for me the indicator that maybe I need to back off is when my son starts rolling his eyes at my suggestions (however good and well-intentioned).

Yup. You've already received some excellent input. For whatever it might be worth, here's mine. 1) Scouting and sports do not have to be incompatible. We have star swimmers, football players, baseball players, soccer players, and others (including marching band and drum corp guys who attend a lot of the games too) in our troop. But it does require a spirit of compromise, and parents who are willing to drive Junior around a bit more than normal. Some guys are seldom around during one part of the year. They may miss some meetings, or show up late and kicking off their cleats as they come in the door. Their parents might drive them out to the campout after the morning ball game on Saturday. That might be ok. It is the ones who play football-fall baseball-basketball-winter indoor soccer-spring outdoor soccer-summer baseball who don't last in the troop, because they never have the time to participate. If that describes your guy, then this is probably not going to work for him right now. Of course you also need to understand that a boy who misses meetings and campouts frequently is going to advance at a slower pace. That's not a bad thing, since (unlike cubs) advancement in boy scouts is very individually driven and not a group thing. And advancement is only one part of the experience. Some kids never get past the early ranks, but have a great time in scouting anyway. But it is important to recognize that right up front so as to avoid disappointments. 2) Beavah said: "Neither you nor your kid know whether or not he's "an outdoor type" at this point. You might be surprised. " Let me tell you, he's right. The rugged "outdoor type" kids don't always like scouting, or particularly need it, to get their fill of outdoor activity. What's amazing to me is how scouting can offer a bookish kid, or a sports-fanatic kid, or a video-game kid, who is NOT already an "outdoor type," a chance to have some wonderful outdoor experiences. My son is an example. We live a suburban life and he's not a huge outdoor guy. But he has come to love camping. Scouting turned him on to fishing, rock climbing, canoeing, rifle shooting and archery, and (most recently) backpacking and hiking, among other things. He'll be spending a week backpacking in a national wilderness area this summer, which I never in my wildest dreams would have predicted he'd want to do, just a couple years ago. By contrast, his cousin who grew up in a rural, outdoor-all-the-time, camp-whenever-you-want, hunting-fishing type family, found scouting a bit dull. 3) Kids need some separation from their parents. Scouting offers a safe environment within which they can get that. I don't send my teen off to scouts to get "rid" of him for the weekend, but I am sure he'd tell you that's one draw of camping - his parents aren't there to tell him what to do! Yet I also know there are good people keeping an eye out for him and he's unlikely to get into major mischief while camping with his scout buddies. 4) Kids need unstructured interaction with other kids. It is part of their socialization process. I know for my son, this has been the single biggest benefit of scouting since he is an only child. I know some boys who never have that experience. They may be involved in a lot of other activities and sure, they go to school all day with other kids, but school and many other activities are so rigid and so adult-driven that the kids don't have much chance to really develop their interpersonal skills. Scouting offers a different type of venue and that can be pretty important, I think. 5) The merit badge part of the program is great. 120+ badges offers enough for practically any boy to explore his budding interests. But unlike webelos, where the activity pins are a major focus of the program, merit badges in boy scouts are not the main point. That's why it sounds so odd for you to write that he'll work on badges but won't have the time to bother with camping. Boy scouting happens in the outdoors with a group of other boys, not inside working on merit badges by oneself. 6) Last one. What's all this "We" stuff? As in, "Were not going to have weekends to camp." Who is making the decisions here; you, or your son? I hope that doesn't offend you. There is certainly a lot of room in boy scouting for parents too. But ultimately it is HIS experience and as a parent you are along for the ride. If he wants to continue, let him give it a whirl. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Wow. Schattenman, I have to say that you might want to carefully consider how you come across. While you may very well have some valid points here, taking off the SM's head is a pretty drastic step and should not be your first big move. If you came into "my" troop like this and if I were the SM, I'd be sorely tempted to either tell you to take a hike until you had a clue, or better yet, I might hand you the badges, wish you lots of luck, and leave in disgust. Being a SM is an enormous commitment of time and energy and it needs to be sustained over time. Lots of times, new leaders (and I'm sorry but at 25, you're still a new leader - it does not matter how long you were in the troop or what ranks you earned as a youth; the adult side of things is just different) have a lot of fire to start with but no understanding of how hard it can be to sustain that in order to provide consistency over time. That does not mean your current SM is necessarily doing a good job, but it may mean you have no idea how hard he is actually working at it. Be thankful for the time he gives. Now, as to how to improve things: 1) Is your SM trained for his position? If not, encourage him to go to training. (For that matter: Are you trained as an ASM?) What about the other ASMs? Maybe it would be useful for all of you to attend training together, if some/most/all of you aren't already trained. Even if it is a repeat for a few of you, it might help you all develop a common understanding of what your troop's strenghts & weaknesses are, and how you'll work together to improve upon things. 2) Prioritize your concerns. If you are most concerned about PLCs, focus on that. (You should know it isn't uncommon for SM's to attend the PLC.) If you are most concerned with developing PLs into great leaders, focus on your troop's approach to youth leader training. If you are most concerned about how SPLs and other troop PORs are chosen, focus on that (by the way, there is strong support for the idea of the SPL to choose his own ASPL and other PORs, rather than electing all of them. Among other things, this gives the SPL a leadership corp he can depend upon and work with.) Point is, you have a bunch of issues here and realistically, it is quite difficult to juggle all of them at once. 3) Look at other adults - even those for whom you seem to have little use - as potential allies first. That CC who you say is part of the problem? He may just have a different set of priorities regarding the unit, that you might be unaware of. Talk to him. That COR? Maybe he doesn't have a good sense of things, but he might be educable. Besides which, it is actually quite UNCOMMON for CORs to be deeply involved in the day-to-day affairs of a unit. The fact that he comes around "less than once a month" shouldn't be a problem for you. You simply will not get very far all by yourself. That's how people get burned out, not to mention that if you single-handedly "save" the troop, then the troop may lack for any depth of leadership when you move on. Don't set up the troop to fail in your absence. To avoid that, you need the good will of these other adults. 4) Consider the notion that many people who are willing to give some of their time, none the less do not live, eat, and breathe scouting the same way you might. That's ok - they can still be valuable leaders. Really strong troops have a range of adults committed at various levels. Be careful not to sound contemptuous of those 40 year olds with kids in the troop who impose limits on the amount of time they have to give to the troop. 5) Make sure you have great communications with the parents of boys in the troop. They may perceive things QUITE differently than you do, since you are a) a lot younger and b) not a parent. If they're fairly content then any attempt to stage a coup on your part is not only extremely likely to fail, but you will also cause big problems for the boys currently in teh troop (their parents may abandon the troop rather than put up with what they might perceive as silliness among adults). Are you sure you'd have their support? 6) Think carefully about loyalty. If you can't serve as an ASM for this SM, then don't. Resign. But if you stay, be aware that there are ALWAYS people who simply enjoy complaining. Don't be a lightening rod for other disgruntled people. Situations like that tend to fester and poison the atmosphere for everybody, and that's rarely helpful. If people are coming to you to complain all the time, prepare a standard response that is polite yet makes clear that you don't have an interest in listening to idle complainers. Something like "That would be a good issue to take up with Mr. ___ the Committee Chair (or SM). Why don't you go talk with him." 7) Who cares about the Venturing Crew! Drop it. So they got new unit organizer awards. So what?! That's completely irrelevant to your concerns with the troop. Either the Crew will, or will not, get off the ground. Don't let it distract you. What you've written about the troop does suggest that there are some issues that need to be addressed, but remember that no troop is perfect. I don't think any of what you wrote really rises to the level of forcibly ousting the SM. Most of it speaks to the need for better communication, perhaps more training, and maybe more adult input, but ousting the program leader (SM) should really be a last-ditch effort and not a primary approach to problem solving.

I went back through my WB files (from 2003) and also did not see anything with that line in it, Kudu. While I do not doubt that you received it from the WB folks in your council, that does not mean it is part of the national WB course. But reading through the various threads here over the last few years, I've also concluded that some WB course directors deviate from the national syllabus in ways big and small. Kind of a shame sometimes as what they do may be problematic and may have longer-term implications (I bet whoever wrote that line on your handout didn't expect it to make it into the hands of actual SPLs!). If someone refuses to follow the national syllabus then the BSA can hardly be blamed for the changed content. I'm sure you understand that. So in terms of your own troop, why not simply refrain from passing this along to them, or else do so with that line deleted. Honestly, I find it kind of weird that your council is distributing leftover WB handouts at RT in the first place. Was this part of a recruiting effort to fill an upcoming course? Or was it more of a "here, we found these and wanted to get them off our shelves" type of thing?

Mafaking expressed something I've felt, but not fully realized, for some time too; that idea that I "know" less now than I did a little while ago. It can be easy to look for a nice, clear-cut, definition yet in reality, "boy led" probably means different things in different circumstances. I too am a lot more skeptical of leaders who claim to have "boy led" troops. If they're really glib about it or if their troop sounds picture perfect, then I tend to take such assertions with larger and larger doses of salt. This also resonates for me: "If we gave more authority to the scout would they respond?" That's a question I've been struggling with myself, and we adults in my son's troop grapple with it as a group too (sometimes more successfully, sometimes less). In large part because of this forum, I frequently find myself on the side that answers that question with a conditioned "yes." It seems like this is a touch-and-go subject. Some boys might respond, others might not. Some boys might respond if they truly feel secure in the knowledge that they won't get hammered for responding in ways that turn out not to work as planned the first time they try something. Some boys might take a while, maybe longer than we'd like, to respond. Maybe they're just cautious (I'm really amazed at how cautious and conservative teenage boys are!) or maybe they are waiting to see if the adults really mean it. Some boys might respond in baby steps, with a lot of hand holding along the way, while they gain confidence. And what to do if or when they don't respond, or they take too long a time to respond? I think that's where many "adult mandates" come in, sometimes as ways to encourage fledgling leadership, sometimes as more overt ways of trying to move the program along. The balance point between intentions and outcomes is tricky sometimes.

Ugh! I agree with Nike. I'd have lost it some time back. Have your son quietly follow up with the folks who have agreed to provide his recommendations. It would not surprise me in the slightest to discover that they mysteriously never received the LOR forms, or that their letters got "lost in transit."

GOod point. I tell ya, if it were my kid getting staples in his head because he'd been picked up and thrown to the floor of the school bus by another kid and the school responded as lightly as was indicated here, I'd be camping out in the superintendent's office and making sure there was no question about my views on the matter! Suspension is warranted to behavior like this.

Each rank has a requirement: "Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.". Hotdesk, that is only true for BOY scouts. In this situation we are talking about two CUB scouts. I do think there may be some issue of whether the victimized cub feels safe/comfortable attending den and pack meetings with the boy who threw him to the ground. Some quiet conversation with that boy's family to make sure all is in order within the den, along with a good CM moment about behavior in general, are certainly in order. But beyond that, let the school and the parents handle the actual punishment part unless things boil over further in a pack setting.

Put the burden back on them to show YOU where it says in writing that you "MUST" do that. They're blowing smoke.

Again, maybe it is a local thing Dean. I know of no dens (of any age) who meet right after school anymore. They all meet on evenings/weekends for the reasons you described. Somehow our Tigers still manage those Go See Its pretty well. As for your council's tour permit policy - it is goofy! Talk to them! Explain the impact it is having on your Tiger DLs. The good news is that it is a local interpretation because I assure you, my council doesn't do that. So, it can be changed locally, too. One of the things we did for new leaders was to put together a community resource book of places to go on field trips (or Go See Its), good ideas for belt loops and webelos activity pins, etc., complete with contact information. Reinventing the wheel is really a problem for new leaders. Experienced folks in the pack can help with that.

Yep, I like those "Coach Roz" types too! Scoutdad, we had told her to stop calling, but she did not. Short of contacting the police I'm not sure anything else would have stopped her - she's one of "those." So I just deleted her messages. At the time I wasn't aware that people could be removed from a unit and the pack was in such disarray that I might not have pursued that even if I had known - we had a problematic CO and a bunch of other fish to fry. We did throw her out of our den meetings though, after she showed up one night smelling of alcohol and proceeded to pull her screaming fit in front of the boys. At that point I actually felt sorry for her kids. Dean, perhaps this is a matter of how your council does things, but those Tiger Go-See-Its should not be burdensome for a Tiger DL. For one thing, going to other places takes the pressure off the DL to actually host and run the meeting (you're going to the Fire Station? Great! The folks there will probably do a little spiel, then let the kids climb all over an engine. Den meeting done.). For another, the parent "Tiger Teams" can be told that each of them is in charge of one meeting, which might be a Go-See-It. And finally, at least in my council, local tour permits would not be required for the typical G-S-I. They're only require when we go out of council and frankly, the intent of the G-S-I is that they be done in the local community, obviating any need for a tour permit. Maybe your council uses local tour permits differently. In that case, have one of your more experienced leaders help the TDL by filing the tour permit for them.