Lisabob

dlw, if you feel you must resign, then that's what you need to do. Don't burn your bridges though; you still have a boy in the pack, right? If you decide to write a letter at all (which I agree is not necessary or even typical) then your letter should not (let me repeat NOT) be circulated to the whole pack. I've seen leaders do that and it seems like no matter how justified and no matter how hard they try to avoid it, letters like this tend to come across all wrong. More often than not, letters like this end up doing far more damage than good. (to the person who wrote it, to the pack leadership left to pick up the pieces, and the rest of the pack.) Instead, politely let your committee know that you need to step down. Frame it in a way that allows you and them to move on with dignity. Give them some time to find a replacement for you. If you have b&g in February, that might be a good time to make a transition. As the boys move up in rank you can "present" the new CM with his/her new position too. This can be done in a positive way no matter what's going on that causes you to believe you need to leave. Remember, this is about the boys. Don't let the adult stuff spill over into the pack or den meetings. The boys deserve to have a good program and a fun time unburdened by pack politics. Sorry to hear you have come to the point where you feel resignation is the answer. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I agree that the troops ought to make some effort. They shouldn't go so far as to mis-represent what the troop is really like. But they should actively seek you out by inviting webelos to events (on a timely basis), providing relevant information about the troop without repeated requests or prompting, and making you feel welcome when you are with them. If the troop can't make a reasonable effort to welcome and include potential new members, what kind of effort are they going to make to integrate those boys once they join? This is purely anecdotal experience here, but what I have noticed over the last year is that the troop in our town that did the least recruiting also seems to have the highest first year drop out rate and the weakest first year program, in comparison to the other troops in the area. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Is this $25 in addition to the dues they pay in the fall? If so, what were your dues? And is she going to need to pay again in 2 months when her son joins a troop? (did I read right that her boy is crossing over? I saw "she's gone in 2 months"?) I agree it is ridiculous for any volunteer to claim, or expect, the pack to re-imburse her for $1000 of unauthorized "den expenses." If she was really spending that much money then she went way overboard (A scout is thrifty?). Not to mention that if she's been holding receipts for a long time she should hardly expect the pack to suddenly reimburse her for years' worth of expenses! Still, it would probably be a good thing to include the pack's reimbursement policy in your orientation material for future leaders to avoid a repeat of this. Generally speaking I wouldn't have a problem with paying an extra $25 if the pack finds itself suddenly short. However, I would want the option of signing up for BOys Life or not. (I'd choose it, but others might not). Additionally I would consider asking the pack to set up a partial scholarship fund to defray the cost for families in need. Without Boy's Life we're only looking at $15, right, so if the pack offered to pay $5? Even if all 40 boys ask for the scholarship that's only $200 and it isn't likely that they would. Any chance of asking your CO to contribute some/all of the recharter money? I've heard that many COs do this - ours never did, but then again, I don't think anyone ever asked (we had no idea that other COs did, at the time). Agreed that this woman is probably just being argumentative. But still, you can't know what her financial situation is at the moment. And it might be easier to just say ok, we'll do this for people who believe they need it and operate on a trust basis. Some will abuse it (and she might be one of them) but most won't. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Sue, you nailed it. That's exactly the problem I saw. I didn't expect to learn to rescue drowning boys or sail a boat. I would expect that the training would provide a good deal more context than it did though. If we're going to use BALOO as a comparison: around here, BALOO is an full day course (about 8 hours), during which leaders get to handle gear, cook something, create a mock trip plan, and discuss situations in which various rules might apply. Imagine if we condensed it to 15 mintues and told people to just rely on their common sense. It wouldn't be very helpful. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Sue, thanks for that link. It's good to know there's more info out there. I too have had a very weak experience with safe swim/safety afloat training. Our was done in about 15 minutes and consisted of each participant reading one of the lines off the back of the card that you get to show you've been trained. The fact that I'm now considered "trained" even though I don't know the first (real) thing about boating bothered me. Especially because the discussion afterward turned to a possible white water kayaking trip and how I'd be qualified to sign off on the trip plan since I was now "trained." Yikes! By the way - this training took place at a different scout event - I didn't even know that this training would be offered and that's not why I was there. It was just ancillary to the evening's program. Wondering if others have had any kind of good experience with this training? I hope so!

Last year my son joined a troop where he didn't know most of the boys and the majority of them don't go to his school. In fact, I think he's the only 6th grader from his school. The patrol structure made it easy for him to make friends in this troop. So I wouldn't necessarily focus on that question unless this is a really big issue from your son's perspective. Other questions I'd ask: 1. Do they have functional patrols? What do they do with the new scouts? Is there a "new scout patrol" and what happens with this patrol once the boys have acclimated to troop life? 2. What kind of first year program, if any, do they have to get the new scouts up to speed? This is a big weakness of my son's current troop and something another troop in town does a much better job with. My son's troop has pretty high drop out rates during the first year in comparison to the other troop, and I think this is part of the reason. 3. How well do the adult leaders communicate with new parents? Boy led or not, parents still need to be in the loop to understand how the program works and what their role in it ought to be (or not be - as you know there's a big difference from Cubs here). 4. What are regular the troop meetings like? Are they fun? Are they worthwhile? And who is running them? Is this something the boys are basically in charge of? Or is one or more of the SM/ASMs running things? If the boys are running things, it might seem a little more chaotic (hopefully not all out anarchy though), but this is one sign that the boys are probably involved as real leaders of the troop. 5. What kinds of camping, service projects, patrol activities, etc. does the troop typically do? Are these things that your son would enjoy participating in? Do they camp too often or not enough for your son's tastes? Are the service projects things you and your son feel you can support? This has been a major topic of discussion here lately. How are these events chosen? (by the boys? the adults? annually? as the opportunities come along? - ie will your son have any say in the schedule going forward?) 6. What's the age structure of the troop? Are there a lot of older boys but hardly any younger ones, or vice versa? The troop my son joined is top heavy and they have a great program for the older scouts but tend to be weak in terms of the younger scouts - a problem for us. Another troop in town has the opposite problem and leaders from that group have mentioned that it is hard to expect the younger boys to learn from the older boys because there just aren't many older boys in the troop. 7. How do the adults and boys seem to interact? You mention the "beloved but grizzled" SM and ASM in the smaller troop. Are they really beloved? Or just such institutions that they ARE the troop and that's that? For that matter, how do they feel about these new gung-ho parents? Do you get the sense that new involvement is viewed as a threat, or an opportunity? This is just based on my son's and my experiences since he crossed over last February so I'm still a bit new myself - I'm sure others will offer more sage advice. You might want to read the thread on first year retention too. There were several responses in that thread that highlight things I'd look for (and encourage my son to look for) if we had it to do over again. Good luck and I hope your son has a great experience where ever he goes. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Thanks for all the great ideas. You've made my last minute holiday shopping so much easier! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Eamonn, I see where you're coming from. But I wonder if this is partly a culture thing? Going off to (organized) summer camp is still a rite of passage for most American kids and a cherished memory for their parents too. I have lived in various parts of northern Europe and rarely found anything similar to the American camp experience there. Not surprisingly, most of my friends there didn't seem to understand the cultural importance of summer camp in American life. In fact I recall that many of them thought it sounded a bit silly.

Well ok here I go. This whole uniform thing can be taken too far sometimes by people who are well-meaning and justly proud of being BSA members, but who seem to have left their common sense behind on occasion. When we become dogmatic I think we lose sight of the point of uniforming in the first place. Case in point: My son's troop is a full uniform troop and they travel in Class A. Once they get to their camp site they usually change into more suitable outdoor attire for the weekend. My son owns a full uniform, wears it to every troop meeting and takes pride in it. On a recent campout though, his only pair of scout pants got soaked on Friday night. When the troop formed up before departing on Sunday morning, my son chose not to wear his still-wet pants because...they were wet. Camp was an hour car ride from home and it was a really cold day. Wet pants would've been miserable. The leaders required him to change back into his scout pants anyway. They wouldn't let the troop leave for home until he changed and the other boys were getting angry at my son about the delay. Things apparently degenerated into some rather nasty name calling. The leaders didn't do anything to stop this and it was suggested he should apologize for keeping everyone waiting. Boy was he mad about what he perceived as unjust treatment. He nearly quit. Over a pair of pants. My point I guess is that the methods are only useful in achieving the aims when they are applied with common sense. Of the various scouting methods, uniforming seems to be among the most prone to being abused - by both extremes.

So when I went to WB as a cub leader I found I had a lot to learn about how seriously many troop leaders and other scouters take the uniform. Coming from a cub pack that was/is fairly lax in their views of uniforming, and never having been associated with a troop, I was under-educated. Didn't know what "class B" meant, for example, and when told it meant a T shirt, I showed up in my favorite T, a decidedly non-BSA tie dye. Well hey, they should've been more specific, right? They certainly were the second time they explained it! Things like this became a running joke within the patrol. So when the time came to receive my beads I arrived in bright blue polka dotted socks with my scout socks hanging out of my back pocket. Mind you I had every intention of putting on the "real" socks shortly after arriving. Must be karmic justice though. There I stood chatting with my patrol mates, scout socks dangling, backside to a candle display and...yup...my scout socks started smoking! Let this be a cautionary tale to all who disregard the uniform. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I admit I didn't own a full uniform until I signed up for woodbadge (where it was required, more or less). Now that I've shelled out the money for it I do wear the thing and it isn't really that...bad. I've actually decided I like the socks (crew not knee socks) - they're comfy and my husband never "accidently borrows" them. CNY, I find arguments 1-3 and 5 most persuasive. Arguments 4 and 6 hold no weight in my view. Leadership doesn't stem from wearing a certain shirt or socks. It stems from the way a person acts and interacts with others. Similarly adults can be excellent role models or terrible role models regardless of what they're wearing. Lisa'bob a good old bobwhite too!

Scoutnut, I agree with you actually. But I think it is a bit harsh to say, as you did, that "These folks have been in Scouts for a while, why don't they even have a clue what the policies of the BSA are & what the purpose of the B&G is." You seem to have made some assumptions here that are unwarranted, at least, with regard to the pack that I was part of. I don't doubt there are some packs that have entirely lost sight of the "birthday party" aspect of B&G; ours was not one of them. Reality in this area is that practically all packs have both their B&G and cross over (as well as AOL ceremonies) in February. When I was a pack leader we talked about changing this but ran into several obstacles. The biggest were a) parents and b) troop leaders. Most parents wanted their boys' AOL and cross over to be recognized at the B&G because "everybody would be there" for the ceremonies. (In my opinion, aside from your other objections, it makes the B&G too long when you do this). Most troop leaders want all the packs to do cross over around the same time because it is easier on the troop to incorporate the new boys all at once. Faced with these obstacles, those of us who wanted to de-link AoL, cross over, and B&G were unable to win the day. Of course the pack could decide to change policy but I doubt they will. And as I'm no longer a pack leader I'm afraid my days of influence (such as it was, ha!) are over. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Mark asks: "Why isn't mom making sure the boy is completing all 20 pins before February! I'd be turning that responsibility around." Well actually Mark my take on this is that his mom shouldn't be making sure he completes them at all - the boy should do it, if he's interested, which by most accounts he doesn't seem to be. His mom is just really pushy. But to answer your question - this boy has only been a webelos scout since June and he's crossing over in February. As you know it is hard enough to finish all 20 of those pins in the normal 18 month program, let alone in 10 months. There's a story there but that's for another time. It'll be interesting to see what happens when he crosses over because the troop he will be joining is pretty much a boy led troop. "Mom" here is going to be in for a shock. My guess is that the boy will handle things ok. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

We went round and round about this last year and the pack my son graduated from is facing debates about this again now. Their B&G is typically in late Feb. but there are several who want to move it to late March or late April. There are some parents at the extremes (one demands the pack delay B&G until her boy earns all 20 webelos pins...argh!). Around here the big concern is that crossing over in mid Feb. means the first campout is guaranteed to be miserable in terms of weather. Last year, the new boys went camping three days after cross over. Most were utterly unprepared for daytime temps hovering around zero degrees(packed the wrong gear, didn't own poly pro anything, no prior winter camping experience, limited help from the older boys who knew what to do to stay warm but had no investment in these brand new scouts yet, etc.). A few were so miserable they quit immediately after their first camp out - within a week of cross over! Several swore they'd never go camping in winter again (and so far they're sticking to it but we'll see - mine's one of these and I'm trying not to push it too hard). Some parents and leaders feel the boys would have better experiences if they crossed over in late March, so their first camp out would be in mid-late April when it is at least likely to be more temperate. On the other hand...there's that summer camp problem, plus the fact that bored webelos aren't a good thing. In terms of the cub program they're pretty much ready to move on by January of their 5th grade year. I still don't know what the right answer to this dilemma might be - aside from a resounding NO to the one parent who insists the pack reschedule B&G just so she can cram those last couple webelos pins down her boy's throat. Maybe have the boys cross over in Feb. but not attend that first campout, or have a new scout campout instead for them? Some here will see that as coddling I suppose. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I'd like to ask for input from all of you who are "seasoned veterans" with troops. I'm working on a new parent FAQ for a troop and I'd like to know what the most commonly asked questions from new parents are, and/or common misconceptions that new parents hold regarding the troop and its program. If you are a new(er) parent in the troop, what are some of the things you wish you'd been told or known when your boy first crossed over? thanks for your input!

Blue and Gold season is approaching and the next batch of brand new boy scouts are right around the corner. What is your troop's experience in terms of first year scouts and retention rates? How many webelos typically cross over to your troop and what percentage of them would you estimate remain active with the troop for at least a year or more? What do you think are the two or three most important things troops can do to improve the likelihood of retaining these new scouts? Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

You'll need the CM specific training. Around here, leader specific trainings are offered by various districts in the fall, winter, and late spring. This is separate from UoS. Also, as a former pack trainer, I've arranged for new leaders to go to training at other nearby districts in cases where our own district isn't going to do a session anytime soon. So you may have additional options there and it pays to inquire of your own and other councils and districts in your area. You can also ask your unit commissioner and/or pack trainer (if you have one) to locate upcoming training sessions. For Wood Badge, cub leaders need to have done all "required" training for their position. That includes NLE, YPT, and (for you) CM specific. Personally I think it makes sense to do BALOO and possibly OWLS (outdoor webelos leader training - it goes under a variety of names these days) or OLS (which is really for boy scout leaders but many rising bear and current webelos leaders take it around here) too, but these are not requirements. The reason I say this is two-fold. First, the troop leaders who attend WB will all have completed OLS as one of their pre-requisites and it can be helpful to have that same background so you know what they're talking about. Not to mention that OLS is both fun and useful in terms of honing your own outdoor skills. Second, the majority of people in your WB course will probably not be familiar with Cub-related camping requirements and policies (because they'll mostly be troop leaders and not cub leaders), but that won't stop some of them from venturing strongly held opinions about what cubs are or aren't allowed to do. Having taken BALOO will put you in a position where you can distinguish myth from reality in terms of what some people will assert regarding cub camping policy. Of course it will also help you run even better pack outdoor programs, which is an even better reason to do BALOO. Good luck with your new position! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Well I can see where people could interpret the "pack overnighter" in different ways. Regardless of how long an "overnighter" lasts...taking a group of Webelos scouts from FL to NM, just because you don't want to do Cub Scout Daycamp with them, is not justified in my view. There are too many potential complications and with this age group I don't see a clear rationale for such a trip within the confines of the Cub program, except perhaps that it could be "cool." If a resident camp experience is what the CM is interested in, there must be a BSA resident camp program in the local area that the boys could attend. If he's more interested in doing "real" camping and not summer camp at all, I suppose he could probably do that locally too. Then again, I wonder what the boys want to do? And their parents? They'd probably be just as happy (or happier) going to a traditional resident camp, it would likely be cheaper and more convenient, and it would present far fewer complications. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I wonder about the reason why the unit would break off its long-standing relationship with this CO? Although as someone else pointed out, this CO doesn't sound terribly involved with its units (doesn't know what units it sponsors, even), on the other hand I see potential fault with the unit and Council for treating the CO this way too. From the account given, the council regularly relied on this CO's good will toward scouting to act as a paper sponsor when other units were in danger of folding for lack of a CO partner. And then the council didn't even inform the CO when their faux sponsorship was no longer needed? At a minimum the decent thing for the unit in question to do would have been to inform the CO of their desire to change affiliations. At that point the CO and unit leaders could have worked out the details of what "stuff" the unit and CO would each keep and probably have had an amicable parting of ways. From the sound of it, this CO may be justifiably uninterested in sponsoring any future bsa units, after this experience. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Does anybody happen to know whether the Lions will earn a rank badge that is similar in some way to the diamond-shaped tiger/bobcat/wolf/bear badges? Will they be able to wear whatever rank badge they might earn on their blue cub uniforms somewhere once they are Tigers? Logistics aside (how exactly will it fit into that "diamond"?) I wonder if this might provide a clue as to how closely the Lions are intended to be aligned with the pack structure. Lisa'bob

"She said that when the kids become Tigers next year, they'll all have already learned everything they need for their Bobcat. " It sounds like the person in this group is putting out a decent program but I'm not sure how well it dovetails with the current Cub Scout program. The complete separation from the pack seems odd. If they're part of the pack, then the program should encourage interaction with the pack (at least on a minimal level). If they're not, then it doesn't make a lot of sense for the program to include the stuff they need to earn their bobcat. Besides, unless some additional changes are forthcoming, boys can't be awarded the Bobcat until after they get their Tiger badges. So is it logical to teach them all that information 12-18 months or so before they can earn the badge? Or is the idea that they'll get their Tiger badges more quickly and thus get the Bobcat sooner too? In that case, what would the Tiger program consist of after these 2 badges are earned early in the year? I wonder if this Lions program is going to end up cannibalizing the Tiger program in terms of content. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

I'm borrowing Eamonn's thread and changing it a little. What are your favorite scouting gifts to give? I've got 2 boys to find gifts for. My 14 yo cousin is going to Philmont in the summer and is asking for scout stuff related to that trip. He is already well equipped in terms of basic gear (he's been very active in scouts for 3 years and his troop does a lot of camping) but maybe there's something he might need especially for Philmont. My 11 yo son is just doing the regular troop stuff. Any thoughts on some neat little thing every scout should have? Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

Eamonn, that dresser of yours has a twin in my house! I definitely don't need more stuff. Personally I like gifts that are more along the "experience" line, like free passes to the roller rink or movies for all 3 of us or a night out with just my husband and somebody to keep an eye on my son (relatives all live in other states so that's kind of a rare thing for us). Not that I'd pass up a winning lottery ticket in my stocking, mind you. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

scout parent, that's a terrible situation and I wish your son the best in trying to resolve it. Meechgalanne - I could understand why you would be tempted to go for the blow out with the SM in front of the troop. Anybody in this position would be justifiably angry and hurt by this SM's actions. However, most people respond poorly to "ambushes" like this, no matter how right you are and how wrong they are, and it could lead to a pretty nasty scene. So the question is: is the goal to enjoy a public moment of righteous indignation, or is the goal to try to resolve the underlying problem? Sometimes the two are not compatible. Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!

This is why I support scouting. All bsa politics aside, this is what it's supposed to be about. Thanks for the article cajuncody! Lisa'bob A good old bobwhite too!