Lisabob

I'm in agreement with Oak Tree re: OLS and BALOO. In fairness, BALOO is not designed to teach hands-on skills but rather is supposed to help a leader figure out how to plan an age-appropriate camping experience for cubs. I would like to see more opportunities for leaders to learn and practice "scout skills" at district or council training sessions but on the other hand I don't really know if district or council level programs could seriously do this, if we're looking at weekend courses, or longer. While it would be nice to think that if we just offered it, people would come, I'm not convinced that's true. There are already a lot of weekend courses that we go begging to get people to attend. And although (around here) attendance at University of Scouting is pretty good, a one or two hour, one-time class isn't really sufficient, not to mention that most UoS events aren't held outdoors where participants could actually practice the skill. I do think we could make better use of existing opportunities like camporees to offer adult skill sessions while the boys are off doing their own thing though. Just floating this as off-the-cuff...what about offering skill training for new leaders at round tables? Pick a set of basic skills for new leaders and offer them on a rotating schedule a couple of times each year? Not perfect I know but at least a couple of hours once a month is better than once a year and it could be a tease to get people to sign up for OLS where more advanced skills could be covered. Maybe start a little early so that there's time to actually try the skill out.

I find myself going back to the various lessons, thoughts, tools, etc. related to leading change within a group of people (some of whom are disinclined to accept change) on a fairly regular basis in my personal, professional, and scouting life. It isn't so hard to see when a change is necessary or even to figure out what the change ought to be; it is often harder to help build consensus and get buy-in. That's where WB has been helpful for me. Perhaps I'd develop those same skills without WB (I like to think so anyway) through trial and error, but having been through WB gave me a bit of a lens through which to view and re-view efforts I've made, or hope to make in the future, on this front.

So you're talking about having them join the troop in May prior to 5th grade? If they meet the age-related "joining requirements" (below) then they can do that. Some troops might counsel you to wait though, and cub requirements allow you to do so, based on grade level, if the parents choose. I think this is really up to the boys and their parents, but I know some troops prefer to receive all of their new scout cross-overs at the same time. This allows the troop to run a strong new scout program that all new scouts go through together. Also there may be some concern about summer camp if the boys just join in May and camp is in June/early July. Personally I think these concerns can be overcome, but the parents, boys, and troop leaders should all be on board to make it work. Here is the age requirement currently in effect for joining a troop: Meet age requirements: Be a boy who has completed the fifth grade and be at least 10 years old, or be 11 years old, or have earned the Arrow of Light Award and be at least 10 years old, and be under 18 years old. And here's what the Cub Scout application says about joining as a Webelos scout: Webelos ScoutMust have completed third grade, but has not completed fifth grade, or be age 10, but not yet 11 1⁄2. I read that to mean that a boy who hasn't finished 5th grade may be a Webelos scout.

Good for your son uz2bnowl. My thoughts are that you don't tell him about the "dreaded" BOR at all. Let his PL or SPL fill him in - they'll be able to tell him that it really isn't all that bad and he might even believe them. By the way I've sat on quite a few tenderfoot BORs in the last two years and they're almost all nervous for about the first 2 minutes. Then they realize they know the answers to the questions already because we're asking them about stuff they've done and (mostly) enjoyed. And when they come back for their 2nd Cl. BOR they're much more at ease. Kittle, glad to hear from you and hope you and the baby are doing well! It sounds like you and your son have a good perspective on things. Those pull ups are tough for a lot of these guys, I've noticed, compounded by the fact that (at least where we live) there are few places to practice. But maybe you can encourage him to do some push ups too - those also build arm strength without requiring weights. They're so simple, it is harder to say no to them.

Yes I would 100% send that email (or have a face to face conversation)and I would include the committee chair as well. Be sure to read it carefully for tone before you send it. If they perceive it as an attack (although you don't mean it that way) they're much more likely to just discount what you have to say. Unfortunately I see that happen all the time and "group think" is a powerful thing. The other things you asked are all issues I've watched my son's troop struggle with over the last two years, as they've changed SMs and also gone from being a predominantly older-boy troop to one where more than half of the scouts are in their first or second years. There are still things I don't think we do well but I've seen a lot of progress too and hope we'll have better retention of young scouts as a result. Here are a few things I've noticed that seem to make things better: 1) The ASMs who work with new scouts have to be really good. I watched a year ago as a couple of ASMs were assigned to new scout patrols and shook my head. These are good people but they have little patience, either for 10-11 yr olds or parents who don't understand the program yet. They got appointed because they were available. Wrong reason in my view. Too much yelling and "kids these days" negativity as a result and not surprisingly, attrition in those patrols is high. On the other hand, a good match between ASM and new scouts can be priceless. My son reveres "his" ASM, who has done more than any other adult in the troop (SM included) to help mentor my son and keep him motivated. He's very good at communicating with parents too (letting them know, gently, what to expect and when they're worrying more than they should). 2) The boys started out with NSPs for the first year but by the second year the patrols have been re-aligned to be more mixed age. I like that better because I see that it is really, really hard for new boys who don't know the system and don't have many skills yet, to lead each other. Most don't have the maturity to lead their peers, or more accurately, to be led by their same-age-peers. With some boys who are a bit "quirky," being in with your age/class-mates is also a terrible idea. Some of these guys ought to be split up and would probably function much better in mixed age settings where they'd have older boys to take their cues from. And it is hard enough for a new, young, scout to lead his peers under normal circumstances; it is compounded when we add in various behavioral/emotional/social issues where a bit of added maturity on the PL's part might really be needed. 3) Troop guides are helpful. One thing I don't like about having NSPs based on age plus a troop guide though, is that I've seen the troop guide end up doing many things FOR the young/new scouts. They just assume he will because, well, he can and they can't yet. Serious training for TGs in how to assist the new scouts without doing it for them, is essential. Here's where having the right kind of ASM working with new scouts helps too (he can give the TG a nudge when the TG is doing too much). I think I'd rather see TGs work on specific skills more like instructors, rather than assign one TG to each NSP though. Most of the ASMs in my son's troop don't seem to buy the FCFY idea. It is more typical for a boy to make FC late in his second year in this troop, after having gone to at least two summer camps. So I can't comment on implementing that idea.

I'm not against a council getting a little creative or couching it's requests in a way that suggests we should all pay for the services we receive. I know that when boys pay national dues, the council gets zippo from it and that's a problem to be sure. I also know that FOS around here is typically not well received. Part of the problem might be that FOS appeals are often made in ineffective ways. Example: in the Cub Pack that my son was in, almost half of the boys were receiving free and reduced lunches, an indication of difficult financial circumstances. FOS presentations in our district are typically held either in January (right after Christmas when families' budgets are often not in great shape) or at Blue & Gold in February. B&G seems to be a bad time in all honesty because people don't pay attention to the presenter. But the presentations themselves are iffy and tend to focus on larger donations - you can't go to a group of people, half of whom are struggling to get their kids fed, and ask them to donate a whole lot of money. If they asked each family to give $5 or $10 or $20 they'd probably get a reasonable response. Instead they typically ask for $50 or more. Yes, of course people CAN give less but when you start by framing the request for higher amounts a lot of people will just tune you out. Then there's the problem that many packs and troops already charge dues and fees well above what national dues require. Around here most charge between $30-$60 in dues. Plus fees for activities on a monthly basis. Parents who are struggling financially see these FOS goals of an additional $50+ as just another burden. Of course I agree that scouting is still a bargain even at a couple hundred dollars a year. But if I've got two, three, four kids and I'm trying to figure out what I can afford, FOS might be pretty low on my list. By the way while I understand the comparison to the cost of sports leagues, many of the families with boys in CUB scouting around here do NOT have their children in other extra curricular activities such as soccer, baseball, football, etc. - they can't afford them. (And I've noticed that most of these families drop out when it comes time to join boy scouts, which is more expensive due to gear requirements, etc. - even though many troops do fundraisers to help boys pay their way) My point isn't to bash FOS, although I think it could be more effectively presented in many cases. My point is that we need to get past hitting up the same people for money at every turn or what we get in the end is "donor fatigue" and a perception that we're forever fundraising and stretching our own best supporters (members) too thin. To that extent, I agree with Eamonn that councils need to work on developing community relationships in order to help with fundraising efforts.

Hey Pete, I really didn't mean my previous post as an attack. Perhaps it came across a little too blunt. I just wasn't sure where you were coming from, or why. Now I do - thanks. By the way in "my" WB class we agreed that all of us birds could flock together (even those who weren't lucky enough to be BOBWHITES!) so please feel welcome in the nest. Lisa'bob

This business of the young man who is a teen father and living with the mother in her parents' house is bothering me I have to admit. Although I can understand why some have claimed that the whole notion of a 17 year old (or younger?) unwed parent being awarded the Eagle rank is uncomfortable (unacceptable even?), there are also other considerations to be found in the scout law itself. Is it brave to acknowledge, at age 17 (or younger) that you have become a parent? Is it not both brave and loyal to not only acknowledge such, but also to take responsibility for one's new role by deciding to live under the same roof as the mother and the child, rather than leaving them to their own resources? Isn't it brave, loyal, clean, reverent, and even trustworthy to actively support the young woman involved in her decision to have and keep the child, rather than demanding that she seek an abortion or else give the child up for adoption? ("not my problem") Is it perhaps even brave to recognize that, whatever we may say about the acts that resulted in pregnancy, that at 17 one might not be ready for marriage? (yes I know some will say that if you're not ready for marriage then you shouldn't be sexually active either. I understand that perspective. But reality being what it is, these things DO happen and maybe marriage isn't always the answer.) I don't know whether I'd agree that the scout in question lives up to the requirements and expectations of an eagle scout. But I can imagine at least some conditions under which I might say that he does. As for Eamonn's original post - as the mom of a 12 year old, yes I would like to see scouting be a safe zone where sexual behavior of any sort isn't a part of things. But I also hope that we care enough for the boys in our troops (and also young women in our crews) that if one of them did find himself or herself in a position where such issues were in play, that we could give them honest and loving advice and support at times when they may need it most, rather than simply showing them the door.

Pete, given all of the ways in which tickets and eagle projects differ (which you've summarized in your previous message) I am not certain if, or how, it makes a lot of sense to say that the two are comparable, or why you appear to be intent on pursuing this comparison, either? Is there a good reason to find arguments in favor of such a comparison (ie, are you trying to convince someone of the worth of wb or something like that)?

In fairness I think a lot of boys probably could care less about wearing the neckers and some would almost certainly cheer a decision to get rid of them. That's not even intended as scientific evidence but I think there's enough anecdotal evidence out there to suggest that neckers are not wildly popular. As for boys voting to get rid of them - yes, they might be able to do so in a truly boy-led troop, assuming of course that they're determined to buck "tradition" as supported by a lot of adult leaders. Of course we also know that there are many troops which are not boy led to this degree. While I don't find Brian's proposals to be substantive enough to be truly useful or to merit debate (it is hard to debate the merits of proposals that never get past generalizations) and I don't understand his fixation on neckers as a key issue, I also don't see how it is helpful or useful to gang up on him for bringing up the necker concern, as if boys everywhere are actually clamoring for the things. Let's get past it folks and talk about more substantively interesting topics.

Ideally you'd see a little of both going on. It is true that the webelos program begins to move the boys away from doing advancement with mom & dad and toward being more independent. To the extent that the boys work on some activity pin requirements in the den rather than at home, this makes sense. On the other hand, they're still part of the pack and should be playing an active role at monthly pack meetings, which might include presenting a skit or skill demonstration, etc.. So they need to have something they can show for their den at the pack meeting. On the "craft" front, I'm a little wary here. The kinds of craft projects that appeal to younger boys may seem a little "young" for some of your webelos. That doesn't mean you can't do crafts but the nature of them might be changing to focus more on "scout craft" rather than just "arts and crafts."

Brian, I agree that the video is useful and that the BSA has not done an especially good job of publicizing it, so I appreciate that you and others like Steve are spreading the word. However I really don't think the music is the key selling point, nor do I think it approximates what "modern" teens are listening to, if my middle-school-aged son, his friends, or my college students (many, many freshmen) are any indication of what teens listen to these days - and I do believe they are. The key point of the video is not the music anyway; it is the activities. As a program, we live or die by the types of activities we offer. If we're known for doing fun things then boys will want to join; if not, they won't join. All the rest is window dressing at best.

One of the big differences I see is that many WB ticket items are designed to be carried out largely by the individual Woodbadger, although often with the buy-in of others (like the troop/pack committee), while Eagle projects expect/require much more clear-cut additional work from others.

It is that time of year when MBCs in our council are asked to update the list of MBs they wish to counsel. We are limited to no more than four. When I first registered as an MBC I picked one MB that was eagle required and three others that are not. Since then I've found that while there's a lot of demand for the eagle-required MB and some demand for one of the others I chose (ok, 2 scouts have asked about it and one actually did it), the other two are pretty much dead - just no demand for them. And I did NOT limit myself to just working with boys from our troop either - I'm on the council-wide MBC list. I am well qualified to counsel some other eagle-required mbs but I'm a little torn. On one hand if we all sign up for the most popular mbs then there will be no one registered to work with the rare kid who wants to pursue that low-demand mb. But on the other hand, it isn't an efficient use of resources to have people signed up for an mb that hardly anybody wants to do, when MBCs are limited to four MBs.

While I have to agree that I don't see any new ideas being put forth by Brian on his website, I also think it would be reasonable to lay off on the typo in the thread title (Sout). Here's one thing I don't understand though. We have this scout zone video which most of us seem to agree is pretty good. I forwarded it to some webelos leaders in my area and a couple said they can't wait to show it to their dens, to help keep the boys excited about scouting and hopefully looking forward to joining a troop in the next year or so. Great! Now someone explain to me why national went to the trouble to make these commercials and yet I've never seen any of them air on TV? Yes I know air time costs money but so does making a commercial, especially one that hardly anyone who isn't already in scouting gets to see. Or maybe it aired regionally? Has anyone ever seen it on TV?

I like the video and think it does a good job of reaching its target audience - early middle school boys. Too bad I haven't seen it on TV around here! Just one question though. Is the video graphic quality better on the CDs or DVDs versions that you have Steve? It came across all pixel-y when I watched it on youtube .

Hey WDL, sorry to hear about your son's experience. I know that for my own son, making friends (older boys! I think he believed they walked on water for a while there!) in the troop was about the only thing that kept him from quitting during a rough period in his first year, so I agree that it is important. Hopefully he'll have some fond memories of his time in scouting though, and who knows, if your younger son has a better experience maybe older brother will want to give it another try. A couple of thoughts on the issue re: your younger son. 1) Have you had a quiet chat with the troop leadership to let them know why your son is leaving? I see it happen all too often that a boy drops out (esp. the younger boys) and the troop leadership has no clue as to why (which tends to lead to assumptions that it has nothing to do with the troop program or structure). Sometimes, had they known, it is a matter that could have been fixed, or at least avoided in the future. For example maybe they'd be more careful in the future not to create a new scout patrol where all the boys except one already knew each other. 2) Are there other troops in the area? Maybe give them another look and, knowing what you do now about your older son's experience, you might ask them some more questions about how they set up their first year program to avoid a similar situation. One thing I've learned from this board is that no two troops are the same and maybe another troop would be a better fit for your family.

Adding to the notion that there is less for the adults to do - at the same time, adults may need to adjust to the fact that not everything will be done as smoothly/efficiently/well as if they were to do it themselves. Boy leadership is sometimes messy, inefficient, and even ineffective and that's part of the learning process. I know for me, it was very hard to sit back and watch when things were not going too well - the natural impulse is to jump in and lend a hand - and former cub leaders are especially prone to this (having spent the last 3-5 years as CMs, DL,s and committee members, etc., trying to get other adults to lend us a hand when needed!). Parents need to see that an occasional flop of a troop meeting or an outing that falls apart are not necessarily signs of a poorly run program (they might be, but they might not be too...).

We did a CSI-themed camp last January (cabin camping, but outside all day) in connection with local, county, and state law enforcement. The boys & police set up "crime scenes" to "investigate," got tours of a portable evidence lab, got to work a little with police/dog teams, did some fingerprinting (had to be done inside - too cold for the stuff to work outside!), etc. This set the stage for them to work on the crime prevention and fingerprinting mbs, though most just enjoyed the campout and did not follow up on these MBs. This camp was the most popular of the year, hands down. The boys elected to do it again with some variations, this year (though in April so no cabins). This even takes a lot of advance planning though.

I'd categorize the difficulties that new boy scouts, fresh from cubs, tend to face, in three groups: 1. Attachment issues - never done anything w/out a parent or guardian in attendance and right by their sides. 2. Experience issues - not acquainted with the outdoors and/or never had to "tough it out" and yet have a good time (hopefully) in slightly nasty weather (I'm not talking about awful conditions, just less than perfect conditions). Consequently the boy may be uncomfortable with the whole idea of being outdoors. 3. Interaction issues - a lot of kids who don't have older siblings may not know how to interact with older boys and let's face it, sometimes even our sweetest teenage boys get a little rough around the edges, especially on a cold/wet Sunday morning. We can work on the first issue by encouraging den leaders to build independent activities into their program as appropriate, but beyond that there's not much we can do about it - and more often than not this is an issue on the parent's end more than on the boy's end anyway. Sometimes it is a trust issue on the parents' end (how can I send my child off to the woods where he'll be using sharp things and building fires, with people I don't/barely know?) and in that regard the "face time" that somebody else mentioned in the thread on preparing parents for cross over is key, I think. Make sure they know who you are, that you are competent and safe, and that you will keep an eye out for their boy. In the second and third group, WDLs are hopefully seeking out opportunities for interaction with troops or at least with a few boys from a troop. Start a tradition of an annual webelos den camp out and invite a boy scout patrol from a nearby troop to join you. Seek out a couple of day events for your younger webelos to attend with a troop. Look for a couple of opportunities to camp with a troop. Have a "dinner meeting" where your webelos help cook and eat dinner outdoors at the local county park or what have you. Request den chiefs from troops - relentlessly, if need be. (I never had any luck with this but I still wish we could've done it) Cub day camp and resident camp are also great activities. But I'd say they are not good approximations of life as a boy scout. Around here at least, they tend to be geared more toward cub advancement with an emphasis on activities that are age-appropriate for wolf/bear scouts (esp Day Camp - probably because these boys are present in the largest numbers). And of course they're held when the weather is almost always beautiful, whereas most troop camping takes place when the weather isn't so cooperative. There are also skill issues and gear issues. But although I think on the gear issues a head's up to webelos parents is helpful (Christmas usually comes just before cross-overs...and at least make sure they know what NOT to buy...), I really don't think these are the main issues that cause difficulty for new boy scouts. A good troop should be able to teach basic skills to all the boys once they join, no matter what skill level they start with. And most troops have some extra gear that they can lend until the new scouts and parents are ready to equip themselves.

I agree that this is really important. Last year (for the first time) we did a parent orientation on a Saturday afternoon a couple of weeks after all of the cross overs joined us. (The SM and some of the youth leadership did a new scout orientation at the same time in another room). That seemed useful but only about half of the families attended. I've been thinking that it might be helpful to have a couple of people attend a den meeting and talk with the parents in that setting (while the boys are otherwise occupied). Ideally I guess it would be the SM, although in our case we draw boys from about 6 different packs and our SM is a busy guy so it would probably be ASMs and committee members. That way the parents would get a clearer idea before their sons join a troop and it might also give the parents a contact person to go to with questions once (if) their boys do join. Of course that would be less of an issue with small troops but in our case we've got about 35-40 boys and probably 20 registered Scouters so it can be a little hard to know who to go to with questions. Does anybody do that? Would Webelos DLs find that a good use of time? Oh - and one other useful thing for parents of prospective cross over scouts - make sure to give them a calendar of troop activities as far in advance as you can so they can "be prepared" to participate in your troop activities right away. When we joined (on a Friday night at a pack cross-over ceremony) we were told - see you Tuesday for the troop meeting- and we're going camping next weekend - and there's a fundraiser the following week...we expect to see your son at these events... and I felt like I'd been bushwacked! Totally threw off my schedule, for which I was not grateful. Especially because I had asked and asked for this info up front and never got it until that night!

I love that quote! And isn't it a good description of what dedicated volunteers in practically every type of organization must feel. Hey Eamonn, that's one of the great things about this forum, right? Collectively, we're always here (well somebody is anyway) and you can just stop by the fire when you're interested in talking about scouting. No obligations. As for real life, I'm with Oak Tree. Just because you're not so involved at the district and council level doesn't mean you stop caring - of course you do, or you wouldn't have been so involved to begin with. But don't feel guilty. Just do what you can and want to do, for your family (first) and the ship. From all you've posted, it sounds like you're having plenty of impact right there.

Eamonn I'm sorry to hear you are going through a rough time. And one of the things I see and do NOT like about scouting is that we tend to burn out our best volunteers by asking too much, for too long. It is time for someone else to step up to the plate in your district and council right now and you should not feel guilty about stepping back, focusing on the essentials, and letting someone else handle the rest (however well, or poorly, they may do it). If the phone calls are getting to be a pain, maybe send a nice email to your DE and the woman in the council office who is telling people to call you, thanking them for thinking so highly of you but asking them to re-route people with concerns/complaints to more appropriate sources of information. Unless they're total dolts they ought to "get it" that you're out of the loop and wish to remain that way for now. If they don't start getting it and you're feeling a little malicious I suppose you could start giving out their home phone #s to people who continue to call you.

Pete, I'm in agreement with you and in my contacts with packs I have promoted all of the suggestions you list. However my point was not that the pack should help get the boys uniformed (of course that should occur). My point was simply that the decision as to which shirt to wear is, as per the current cub leader training and webelos book info, up to the individual parents and not up to the pack or den leaders. Those parents may be happy to go along with a group policy (or not) but it is their choice, regardless of which options the pack offers for helping boys acquire the uniform.

OK so if that's the problem then the answer is fairly easy - the other Tiger den needs a permanent DL and maybe this parent would like to step up and be that DL. In my experience when you have "rotating" DLs in a Tiger den it is usually because no one is willing to say "I'll do it." While understandable (most Tiger parents are brand new to scouts and don't know what they're getting into yet, so don't want to commit) it is also a signal to your pack leadership that someone (CM, CC, more experienced DL) needs to work with these parents to help them see that being a Tiger DL isn't that hard. You've already got all of the Tiger parents there and active in the program so it isn't the case that the Tiger DL will be doing "everything" by themselves (or anyway they shouldn't be!). Rather, their job is more to make sure that coordination occurs. And of course they're going to get all kinds of support from the CM and other DLs (right?) so they're really not going to be on their own. This other Tiger Den could be a great den in the making but they do need leadership. If a parent is concerned enough to ask about switching dens then there is a person who is involved enough to be a good den leader candidate. Tap that energy/interest and help them get started!