Kudu

Girl Scout camp was where I first heard the phrase "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle"!

The Scoutmaster of my first Boy Scout Troop as an adult volunteer was an Eagle Scout. He did not allow boys to tent in weather under forty (40) degrees, so he rented cabins from early fall to late spring.

Girl Scout cabins were his absolute favorite because the central heating meant that he did not have to assign a fire watch to insure against a chilly cabin at night.

Without stuffed furniture, wall to wall carpeting, twin microwaves, and cable TV, it will take much longer for his future Eagle role models to log those important twenty nights of camping!

I think you're projecting a little bit...Please don't paint me as a stereotype from your imagination -- that's not really very fair

Paul, This is precisely the problem with a program based on character. To you I am "projecting" and "painting" you as a "stereotype" from my "imagination," which you characterize as "not really very fair."

From my perspective rejecting a boy's touchdowns, baskets, goals, or homeruns because he could not explain the concept of "sportsmanship" to the satisfaction of some other kid's father, is not just "fair," but a perfect analogy to your desire to "send boys back from a BOR over 'idealist' issues when they were progressing in knots and fires."

So how do we help youth discover and build character? -- should we assume that neither condition is a result of scouting experience' date=' or should we think about how we can influence (in practical terms) a stronger, more consistent outcome of men brought up through "the program" who exhibit great character in their adult lives? [/quote']

 

There is no proof either way. Forcing boys to "sit side by side with adults" and talk about "ethical choices" might work to your satisfaction. Nobody can prove it won't.

 

That's why most boys hate Scouting. When Scouting was popular, it was a game. Most games revolve around a set of skills that have no practical value in an office. For instance, bouncing, throwing, catching, or kicking a ball through physical space.

 

That's how Scouting worked on June 15, 1916: A Boy Scout used Scoutcraft skills to move through physical space.

 

Likewise, Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Leader used Scoutcraft skills to move a Patrol of boys through physical space.

 

With the retirement of Hillcourt in 1965, the BSA's office workers replaced the objective skills that outdoor boys like, with the subjective skills that office workers like, under the anti-Scoutcraft banner "Character and Leadership."

 

You know: "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle."

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

 

 

I deny that B-P was a pantheist.

Clearly you are not moved by the beauty of the passages that Jeal quotes. A pantheist would point out that your reaction is an expression of all the natural laws in the universe.

Not sure what your point is here ... But having troubled relationships with clergy does not make one a pantheist.

Note the context: Jeal is quoting the clergy that reacted to Baden-Powell's pantheistic article "Religion of Backwoods."

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

I don't see why a Buddhist could not practice what Baden-Powell calls "applied Christianity." But a pantheist is unlikely to call the scouting method "applied Christianity."

A pantheist is just as likely as a Buddhist to recognize applied Christianity ("service to one's neighbor") as a metaphor intended for a Christian audience:

"Some may object that the religion of the Backwoods is also a religion of the backward; and to some extent it is so. It is going back to the primitive, to the elemental, but at the same time it is to the common ground on which most forms of religion are based --- namely, the appreciation of God and service to one's neighbor" (Baden-Powell).

http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm

According to one biographer' date=' Baden-Powell and his theologian father (on whose book, "The Order of Nature," B-P based the spiritual aspect of Scouting) were pantheists.[/quote']

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm'>http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.). I don't think one can conclude that B-P was a pantheist based on his father's pantheistic writings, even if he was somewhat influenced by them. I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation (e.g. that Baden-Powell was a "repressed homosexual").

 

I don't know about B-P's father but I find it hard to square Baden-Powell's statements on the subject of religion with pantheism, e.g.:

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws." (a pantheistic god doesn't have laws apart from the laws of nature)

 

 

Easily squared: A skeptical Scout inoculated with B-P's brand of woodsy pantheism reads that as "No man is much good unless he believes in the transformative power of nature and obeys its laws.

 

 

 

 

"Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

 

From the very first fortnight edition of Scouting for Boys, Baden-Powell used the Buddhist culture of Burma as his prime example of applied Christianity.

 

 

 

 

I also find it odd that the first link (http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm) discusses B-P's troubled relationships with Churchmen but not his friendly ones (e.g., Cardinal Bourne, Fr. Sevin, etc.).

 

Maybe friendly Christians do not threaten to destroy the Scouting "Movement as a national institution" if nature offers an alternative to "Revealed Religion," or announce that God had condemned Baden-Powell's namesake to hell for essentially the same reason?

 

 

 

I also tend to take Jeal's work with a grain of salt considering his tendency toward speculation.

 

 

Certainly there is no room for speculation in history or religion!

As long as all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed and the boy has actually fulfilled the list of requirements, he technically is qualified to earn Eagle. That being said, he is going to be viewed by most people as a technical Eagle, right or wrong. An Eagle with an asterisk beside his name. He may be an Eagle, but he isn't old enough to staff camp. He isn't going to be tapped to serve on an NYLT course or be a course leader. He won't be considered a serious candidate if he were to run for Lodge Chief if he is in OA. Heck, depending on just how young we are talking here, he may not even be eligible to attend a High Adventure base. Etc., etc., etc. He doesn't have the time, breadth, depth and maturity that most people will expect of an Eagle. I never, ever want to squash a boy's desire or spirit. that being said, an SM needs to have a sit down with a boy's parents and the boy as well and have a long discussion. There is the destination.......and there is the journey. The journey is far more important to becoming an Eagle than the destination is. A good SM will channel the boy's ambitions back into the troop instead of simply obtaining a rank. A good SM will convince the boy of how very important the journey is in relation to the rank. Just my two cents.

1) By definition they are not based on merit.

while serving on a BOR' date=' a boy is asked about meaning of oath and law, shrugs his shoulders and stares at his shoes, mutters, 'ummm, I guess the oath is something we say to remember to be good scouts" and gets a hearty congratulation from the BOR leader. I attempt to ask a follow up questions, and get shut down by the BOR organizer. The boy was passed and I had a long discussion afterwards with the BOR team. Eventually, we got better, but they were afraid to send boys back from a BOR over "idealist" issues when they were progressing in knots and fires. I ended up having to take these concerns to the direct contact leaders as a concerned father. It can be an uphill battle when it ought to be seamlessly included in the presentation of the program. That's why I'm searching for ideas on how to better incorporate character development.[/quote']

 

This is why most boys love sports and hate Scouting.

 

To begin with, a BOR is the BSA's mommy and daddy-run version of Baden-Powell's "Court of Honor" (PLC). In Traditional Scouting, the best Patrol Leaders supply the leadership skills, and the program is all about "progressing in knots and fires."

 

The "character development" you envision is like rejecting a boy's touchdowns, baskets, goals, or homeruns because he could not explain the concept of "sportsmanship" to the satisfaction of some kid's father.

 

 

Personal Growth (as a bone fide "method" of scouting that is equally important as the "outdoor program" or "boy led patrol method")

PaulSafety: Welcome to the forum from your anti-matter counterpart in Scouting.

The centerpiece of the "Personal Growth" Method when it was introduced, was the "Personal Growth Agreement Conference" with its own paperwork: the official "Personal Growth Agreement" contract. The Scout was required to list specific goals and then meet them before his next advancement. To accommodate the anticipated flood of "urban youth" who hate Scoutcraft, the goals need not have anything to do with Scouting.

And yes, when "Personal Growth" and "Leadership Development" were introduced in 1972, the Scoutmaster's Handbook asserted that these new "Methods" of Scouting were equally important (bold and italic emphasis in the original) to the Traditional Methods.

Camping was removed from the supposedly "equally important" Outdoor Method as a requirement (yes, in the ideal "leadership skills" program you could go from recruit to Eagle Scout without a single night away from home), "Real" Patrols (and Patrol Leader Training itself) were removed from the supposedly "equally important" Patrol Method and replaced with "leadership skills," and Scoutcraft (required by our Congressional Charter) was removed from Wood Badge and replaced with, um, "leadership skills."

So Personal Growth was introduced by those in Scouting with contempt for Scoutcraft and the Patrol Method, and lives on in the "Character and Leadership" battle cry of the BSA:

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

I am having trouble posting ... just wrote a looooong post and it keeps on telling me about some string problem what not?

 

Edit: Logged in, logged out and seems to work now. Had it several times in the past days that I wrote something and couldnt post it.

I am having trouble posting ... just wrote a looooong post and it keeps on telling me about some string problem what not?

 

Edit: Logged in, logged out and seems to work now. Had it several times in the past days that I wrote something and couldnt post it.

A single Patrol unit is the purest form of the Patrol Method.

Baden-Powell designed Scouting to be run by Patrol Leaders, with SPL unnecessary in Troops as large as 32 Scouts.

Definitely drop SPL position until you have 3 (maybe more) patrols to coordinate. Use PL and ASPL.

 

If you have a skewed age distribution (e.g. one boy over 16 and the rest below 15), consider letting the oldest boy(s) be Jr. Assistant Scoutmaster. A JASM has a lot more freedom to stick around with the old farts and map out the rest of his life, but then bunk with the lads, offer to teach a skill to the first years, coach the PL, etc ...

COPE, Climbing and how to run a camp. All nice skills to have but that does that teach the skills that make a better Scoutmaster?

 

What were the outdoors/scout skills that the old Woodbadge taught?

Before "leadership skills," the purpose of Wood Badge was to train Scoutmasters to how teach the best Patrol Leaders how to physically lead their Patrols into the backwoods. Scouts learned their skills from a "Patrol" Leader, not a "Troop" Guide!

Here is a Wood Badge participant's official "Wood Badge Training Notebook" from William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Wood Badge:

http://inquiry.net/traditional/wood_badge/index.htm

Add "No Electronics" policies to the uncool.

 

Show me a Troop that forbids electronics, and I'll show you a car-camping unit where the adults don't get enough exercise.

What makes Scouts uncool is that we have replaced physical distance (objective standards) with the subjective judgment of adults.

We replaced Journeys (as each rank's test of Scoutcraft) with subjective adult sign-offs, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review. We replaced "Real" Patrols (a Patrol Leader's ability to physically lead his Patrol into the backwoods), with a subjective "understanding" of EDGE theory.

So for how most adults experience Scouting (Patrols squeezed together into small car-camp sites), the subjective need of adult helicopters to see Scouts "together as a patrol, talk to their buddies and on a hike maybe hear the birds and waterfall and what not, and not the Top 40 Countdown" is overwhelming.

Some Troops use "Electronics Chit" cards.

Real Boy Scouts (those who enjoy walking into the woods with packs on their backs) use electronics responsibly, as the videos show:

https://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet

As for "On some hikes MP3s would be a simple safety hazard," do the Scouts in our videos appear to be in danger?

Everyone knows that fake "safety" (along with "Scout Sprit") is the sacred wild card of our adult-run Cub Scout program for teenagers.

I see this software supports "sticky" topics in forums. Is this handled by any moderator?

 

For example, Kudu posted this topic The Patrol Method of William Hillcourt containing much useful reference information. Seems to be "sticky" topic candidate.

"Leadership Development: Lessons and questions of Scout leadership and operating Troop program".

The correct tagline for the Patrol Method in a Website dedicated to the memory of William Hillcourt would be:

"The Patrol Method: What a Patrol does apart from the Troop"

With at least two sub-forums:

William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Patrol Method.

and

Lord Baden-Powell's Patrol System

There are now two (2) Baden-Powell Scouts associations in the United States. A Baden-Powell sub-forum might help with the steep learning curve any American must master when transitioning from BSA Scouting to Baden-Powell's system.

As for forums "making a point," the term "Real" Patrol was Hillcourt's term. It seems provocative only because, and I'll say this as gently as possible, Hillcourt never dreamed that Wood Badge would intentionally destroy his life's work.

I see this software supports "sticky" topics in forums. Is this handled by any moderator?

 

For example, Kudu posted this topic The Patrol Method of William Hillcourt containing much useful reference information. Seems to be "sticky" topic candidate.

has a "Sub-Forum" listed under it,

"Equipment Reviews & Discussions"

Someone looking for equipment reviews need not sift through pages of Camping and High-Adventure discussions that have nothing to do with equipment.

So, someone who comes to Scouter.Com because they hear that the site is dedicated to William Hillcourt, should not have to sift through pages of "Lessons and questions of Scout leadership and operating troop program" to find out how to implement William Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method (what a Patrol does apart from the Troop).

do we really need to have "Angler Training" before folks can teach fishing skills?

Yes.

Where else are you going to learn EDGE theory?

Wood Badge replaced Boy Scout skills with office management theory because, as Wood Badge Staffers like to remind each other, some of us spend our entire lives avoiding offices and the people who manage offices.

The problem is that word gets around, and outdoorsmen avoid Wood Badge now, so office theory must be introduced in the "specific" training courses.

In Scoutmaster-Specific training (the course that replaced the "Scoutmaster Fundamentals" course your dad took), the BSA's EDGE experts removed the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation, and replaced them with EDGE.

So, to better serve the outdoorsmen who avoid Wood Badge, Angler Training must likewise remove fishermen and any description of catching a fish, and replace them with EDGE.

In both Hillcourt's Patrol "Method" and Baden-Powell's Patrol "System," the Scoutmaster takes an active role in guiding each Patrol toward its most mature Scout, and encouraging them to stick with him (for as long as he is the best leader).

I talk to each natural leader individually and ask him if he would be willing to be a Patrol Leader (rather than SPL or some other office). I tell him the truth: I need someone I can trust to move the Troop in the direction of controlled risk.

If the natural leaders don't get elected, I keep the Patrols with immature Patrol Leaders on a shorter leash. When I was a Scoutmaster rebuilding a "Troop in trouble," I would take a natural leader along with me on a recruiting presentation and appoint him as "Troop Guide" of the new Scouts I brought into a Troop. After a few weeks it was natural for the new eleven-year-olds to vote for this older boy as Patrol Leader.

Your SPL sounds perfect for a Troop-level position: "a peace maker and the type nobody dislikes, but not what I’d call a natural leader." Good at keeping joint-Patrol activities (planned by the Patrol Leaders) on track, but as SPL he does he not deprive one of the Patrols of their best Scout as Patrol Leader.

On the other hand, I'd have my eye on the 16 year-old as a potential Patrol Leader. SPL, ASPL or JASM is a waste of his talent if he proves to be the Scout you would rather have in charge of a Patrol Hike miles from the nearest adult. The other Patrol Leader will tend to both model himself on the older Patrol Leader, and compete with him.

What it boils down to is, who in each Patrol do you trust to build fires during Hillcourt's "chop" hikes, and otherwise keep the Patrol members from harm's way when adults are not hovering nearby?

Thanks - I will try it as listed.

 

When our troop started I did use the 3rd edition SM handbook for the first 4 weeks pretty much as it suggested, and quickly took a hold of the camping at a distance, despite all the fears I heard from parents that first weekend. I feel both of those items worked very well.

 

That said I did fail to train the Scouts on how to lead, I was too afraid of becoming Webelos III and relied only on "Coach 'em, Trust 'em, Let 'em Lead." As a new leader it was difficult to recognize the differences between Training and doing for them as training was often thought of as training the whole group of boys and not just their leaders since they were all essentially starting from the same spot.

 

Putting the distance between adults and Scouts from the first campout was very helpful. As much to train the adults as to get the Scouts to realize this was theirs and they had to make things work. As we have grown the distance between patrols hasn't and the past couple of outings have shown that they need more space between them to not just become a blob of Scouts not doing much of anything.

Add "No Electronics" policies to the uncool.

 

Show me a Troop that forbids electronics, and I'll show you a car-camping unit where the adults don't get enough exercise.

The BSA program is designed to move a Cub Scout survivor to Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. So, yes, "No Electronics" policies serve the important function of allowing adult Wood Badge/ItOLS graduates the illusion that packing Patrols into small, crowded car camps is Scouting.

But really, if to reach Eagle the BSA required even a single night of what Baden-Powell called "camping," how would you even know that a Patrol at 300 feet, or a remote Boy Scout on a required back-woods Journey, had electronics?

I encourage our Scouts to bring phones and MP3 players on backpack trips but, as you can see from our videos, most of them save their batteries for bed:

https://www.youtube.com/user/At300Feet

I see this software supports "sticky" topics in forums. Is this handled by any moderator?

 

For example, Kudu posted this topic The Patrol Method of William Hillcourt containing much useful reference information. Seems to be "sticky" topic candidate.

Scouter.Com is dedicated to William Hillcourt. It should be the repository of "How-To" implement Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method, before such knowledge passes from living memory.

Add "No Electronics" policies to the uncool.

Show me a Troop that forbids electronics, and I'll show you a car-camping unit where the adults don't get enough exercise.

I have made/been involved with homepage and 2 Facebook pages for Scouts - one public and one a private group.

Public one is great for recruting, advertising fundraisers, thanking your sponosor/charter etc.

The private group is great for the kids to share camp pictures etc.

Add passworded Websites to my list of why Scouts is uncool. In sports, a boy's first AND last name are published in both the analog newspaper and the online edition to announce his accomplishments.

In Scouts we hide in secret vaults what is cool about Scouts (the one thing that has proven to recruit Boy Scouts to our Troop), so as to protect young men against imaginary monsters lurking in the parking lot.

 

 

a) Boy scout aye? Wow you're really letting your nerd flag fly.

 

b) Actually its a GEEK flag. Nerds are more academically inclined, while we geeks are just super-passionate about our hobbies.

 

a) I see. And the people who know and care about this difference are called ...?

 

b) I believe "dork" is the prefered nomenclature.

That's going on our Troop's Website!

Until we drop the school work and have a uniform that looks more like a BDU and less like a corporate-casual desk jockey, scouts will always be uncool.

Thanks - I will try it as listed.

 

When our troop started I did use the 3rd edition SM handbook for the first 4 weeks pretty much as it suggested, and quickly took a hold of the camping at a distance, despite all the fears I heard from parents that first weekend. I feel both of those items worked very well.

 

That said I did fail to train the Scouts on how to lead, I was too afraid of becoming Webelos III and relied only on "Coach 'em, Trust 'em, Let 'em Lead." As a new leader it was difficult to recognize the differences between Training and doing for them as training was often thought of as training the whole group of boys and not just their leaders since they were all essentially starting from the same spot.

 

Putting the distance between adults and Scouts from the first campout was very helpful. As much to train the adults as to get the Scouts to realize this was theirs and they had to make things work. As we have grown the distance between patrols hasn't and the past couple of outings have shown that they need more space between them to not just become a blob of Scouts not doing much of anything.