Kudu
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Posts posted by Kudu
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Qwazse,I should have replied earlier: 1. Thank the SM for not wasting the boys' precious time learning the false religion of EDGE. 2. Congratulate the SM for letting the boys endure a bit of the standard chaos of boy-led units. 3. Get him the district award of merit for thinking up the dish washing method as an applied leadership skill. Otherwise, follow BD's advise (it might have been to Christian of him omitting all of the expletives that may have been in the subtext of his reply).Thanks for the trip down memory lane!
"The only thing that EDGE has ever accomplished (that anyone can measure objectively) is remove the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol from the Patrol Method presentation of Scoutmaster specific training. "
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Yes, the Den Leaders with the plush toy "critters" do cry at the end. Those freely distributed boxes of Kleenex at the closing represent the "diversity" we gained from Program Neutering.
Also, participants should then be able to spell "Wood Badge," and distinguish between the proprietary timeless "21st century leadership skills" of Green Bar Blanchard, and the non-proprietary timeless "21st century leadership skills" of Scouting's true founder, Bruce Tuckman.
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My best hooligan Patrol Leaders are not bullies, but they are well known by the other Scouts for their after school fights.JoeBob, the Formin, Stormin, Formin, comment brought back a memory of WoodBadge. All the people are arrows and they're pointing every which way (formin), and they slowly align till they're pointing the same way (performin). So I asked, what do you do with 15 year olds when rather than arrows you have BBs (that aren't going in any direction)? Never did get an answer.What you're asking is a common question among those trying to turn around a program: "I kind of know what it should look like but how do I get there? What has worked for people before me?" That's not in Woodbadge. Woodbadge is: "I have a good idea, how do I implement it?"
For people that come from a unit with a good culture, be it boy-led or a great Pack, Woodbadge is great because you can already learn how a unit should run by looking at your own unit. If you're trying to turn things around then Woodbadge doesn't give you the "vision" that they talk about. Once you get the vision you can use Woodbadge skills to implement it.
Based on what you've written, I've been there. So I came here looking for ideas and started asking questions. I tried a lot of ideas, and what I found is while a lot of ideas are really good, they make assumptions that you might not know about. For example, the first time I tried Kudu's 300' thing it failed (boy not led, adult not led, Lord of the Flies!), but now that I have the leadership and teamwork at a minimum level, 300' (separate the patrols) is working well. Regarding training, I tried ILST and my scouts slept through it and had no take home skills to handle the exact problem you mention (younger scouts that don't want to do dishes). So I took the ILST syllabus and compressed it down to 30 minutes without any exercises and then added a few hours of 15 minute exercises. Every exercise requires a team to solve a problem in 5 minutes. Members take turns being the leader for each exercise. There's time up front to let them know what the problem is and for them to plan for it, 5 minutes to do the exercise, and time to reflect on what happened. The idea is to give each scout several chances to lead. One example is make a cake batter and get it into the oven, if it's not in the oven within 5 minutes then I'd toss what they made and nobody would get the cake. About a half hour later was the problem of cleaning up. If they didn't get it done in 5 minutes then I got the cake. Talk about incentive. I found paper airplane projects on line. I had a big domino set and did some stuff with that. I took the communication exercise out of the ILST manual. I had them teach the sheep shank. I asked them to identify and call a scout that's not advancing. If the problem didn't seem too hard to do then I'd coach a scout, before hand, to be a pain in the neck. This is where scouts that don't want to clean come in. It got to the point where the scouts wanted a problem scout. Sometimes the scouts would have so much fun being the pain that I'd let it go and let them enjoy it. They had fun with it. The other thing I noticed is that it was a challenge and they were up for it. When it was your turn to be the leader everyone was watching to see how you did. This is so much better than something like the telephone game. The first time I tried this was a month ago so I'm still playing with it. I just need a lot more ideas.
As for SM time management, my first impression is that the committee, the PLC, and the ASMs should take some of the load off of you. Until I got the committee to do its job I didn't have time to do mine, which was work with the boys. I had a bullying type of issue and I talked to the PLC and asked them to handle it while respecting the Scout Law. They did a great job. I also have a PLC ranging in ages of 13 to 17. I also ask all of the scouts to nominate patrol leaders, so that's how we get the hooligans out of those positions. One subtle benefit is that it's not me telling a scout he can't be a PL, it's his peers. They're a lot harsher than I am and quite fair. That also makes me the good guy so when I suggest they work with the new scouts to gain some confidence and let everyone know they're serious, they listen.
Maybe this is another topic, but I wonder if Scouter-Terry could put a wiki on this website and get some people to start editing some of the knowledge that's here and make it easier for people like you to get to. That would help Woodbadge as a resource.
Sorry for stealing your thread, Packsaddle.
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OK, I removed the hooligan quote from my Kudu.Net Website.JoeBob, the Formin, Stormin, Formin, comment brought back a memory of WoodBadge. All the people are arrows and they're pointing every which way (formin), and they slowly align till they're pointing the same way (performin). So I asked, what do you do with 15 year olds when rather than arrows you have BBs (that aren't going in any direction)? Never did get an answer.What you're asking is a common question among those trying to turn around a program: "I kind of know what it should look like but how do I get there? What has worked for people before me?" That's not in Woodbadge. Woodbadge is: "I have a good idea, how do I implement it?"
For people that come from a unit with a good culture, be it boy-led or a great Pack, Woodbadge is great because you can already learn how a unit should run by looking at your own unit. If you're trying to turn things around then Woodbadge doesn't give you the "vision" that they talk about. Once you get the vision you can use Woodbadge skills to implement it.
Based on what you've written, I've been there. So I came here looking for ideas and started asking questions. I tried a lot of ideas, and what I found is while a lot of ideas are really good, they make assumptions that you might not know about. For example, the first time I tried Kudu's 300' thing it failed (boy not led, adult not led, Lord of the Flies!), but now that I have the leadership and teamwork at a minimum level, 300' (separate the patrols) is working well. Regarding training, I tried ILST and my scouts slept through it and had no take home skills to handle the exact problem you mention (younger scouts that don't want to do dishes). So I took the ILST syllabus and compressed it down to 30 minutes without any exercises and then added a few hours of 15 minute exercises. Every exercise requires a team to solve a problem in 5 minutes. Members take turns being the leader for each exercise. There's time up front to let them know what the problem is and for them to plan for it, 5 minutes to do the exercise, and time to reflect on what happened. The idea is to give each scout several chances to lead. One example is make a cake batter and get it into the oven, if it's not in the oven within 5 minutes then I'd toss what they made and nobody would get the cake. About a half hour later was the problem of cleaning up. If they didn't get it done in 5 minutes then I got the cake. Talk about incentive. I found paper airplane projects on line. I had a big domino set and did some stuff with that. I took the communication exercise out of the ILST manual. I had them teach the sheep shank. I asked them to identify and call a scout that's not advancing. If the problem didn't seem too hard to do then I'd coach a scout, before hand, to be a pain in the neck. This is where scouts that don't want to clean come in. It got to the point where the scouts wanted a problem scout. Sometimes the scouts would have so much fun being the pain that I'd let it go and let them enjoy it. They had fun with it. The other thing I noticed is that it was a challenge and they were up for it. When it was your turn to be the leader everyone was watching to see how you did. This is so much better than something like the telephone game. The first time I tried this was a month ago so I'm still playing with it. I just need a lot more ideas.
As for SM time management, my first impression is that the committee, the PLC, and the ASMs should take some of the load off of you. Until I got the committee to do its job I didn't have time to do mine, which was work with the boys. I had a bullying type of issue and I talked to the PLC and asked them to handle it while respecting the Scout Law. They did a great job. I also have a PLC ranging in ages of 13 to 17. I also ask all of the scouts to nominate patrol leaders, so that's how we get the hooligans out of those positions. One subtle benefit is that it's not me telling a scout he can't be a PL, it's his peers. They're a lot harsher than I am and quite fair. That also makes me the good guy so when I suggest they work with the new scouts to gain some confidence and let everyone know they're serious, they listen.
Maybe this is another topic, but I wonder if Scouter-Terry could put a wiki on this website and get some people to start editing some of the knowledge that's here and make it easier for people like you to get to. That would help Woodbadge as a resource.
Sorry for stealing your thread, Packsaddle.
Honestly, some of you guys have been talking about trying the Real Patrol Method for years.
Debating how meek popularity contest winners will learn the "leadership skills" to lead a Patrol without two-deep helicopters is just another abstraction-distraction.
My best hooligan Patrol Leaders have the following traits:
1) Above average IQ and verbal skills (verbal skills that usually get them into trouble with adults);
2) A natural sense of fair play (Scout Law, but kid fair play);
3) An love of outdoor adventure which places campouts ABOVE sports;
4) A bearing that discourages anarchy when the adults aren't looking.
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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Here are some "how to do it" pointers by Bob Geier:
http://inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm
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JoeBob,Where some of us 'see' benefits to woodbadge, they seem to be intangible benefits and often applied to other woodbadgers rather than to oursleves. If you have taken woodbadge or plan to, what is the reason? If it's peer pressure, like Basementdweller says, that's fine. But if you have definite needs that you think woodbadge can help with I'd like to know what those are...and if woodbadge accomplished what you thought it would.I'm still open to reading the complaints but what I really want to read is the 'good stuff', and how it was of benefit to you and your unit, the success stories.
Note Baden-Powell said "appoint."
That quote would be his answer to your question 1a. Way back in the last century, an article in "Scouter Magazine" featured a skinny four foot Patrol Leader of mine, a hooligan who could hike or camp his Patrol every week in the summer because he held his own with bigger boys.
Think Ender or Bean.
The fundamental experience of adventure in Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrol is the Scouts' mastery of physical distance without two-deep helicopters. If your bottom line is pure democracy and six month PORs, then obviously you can safely try the Real Patrol Method only when, by pure chance, a Patrol elects a Patrol Leader you trust.
Barring that you could try an ad hoc backpacking Patrol (if you can go without "democracy" for a weekend). In a mature Troop culture, gung-ho outdoor Scouts will learn to elect Patrol Leaders that you approve for 300 feet camping and/or unsupervised backwoods travel.
Remember Baden-Powell's "eleventh" Scout Law: "A Scout is not a fool."
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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JoeBob commented:Where some of us 'see' benefits to woodbadge, they seem to be intangible benefits and often applied to other woodbadgers rather than to oursleves. If you have taken woodbadge or plan to, what is the reason? If it's peer pressure, like Basementdweller says, that's fine. But if you have definite needs that you think woodbadge can help with I'd like to know what those are...and if woodbadge accomplished what you thought it would.I'm still open to reading the complaints but what I really want to read is the 'good stuff', and how it was of benefit to you and your unit, the success stories.
"help me with my two greatest needs right now: 1- A simple system of leadership that PLs and SPLs can actually use."
How simple do you want it, JoeBob?
The Real Patrol Method:
Whenever you are tempted to utter the word "leadership" in front of a boy, change the subject to physical distance.
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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When I was a teenager, my best friend's parents bought a Dairy Queen franchise. The very first thing the corporate trainer taught us? Always use the term "product" instead of "ice cream."
By law, soft serve is not ice cream, in the same way that (in the absence of a free market) the BSA's "product" is not Scouting.
Perhaps it is helpful to refer to our mess as the "BSA's product," since most of the problems we discuss stem from the fact that (hidden by BSA training) we have replaced Scouting with stuff that boys hate, have always hated, and will continue to hate until the end of time.
Basementdweller writes:
"But so many adults are Rank driven....If we removed that component of the program, which it seems brings the worst out in some folks, what would the Boy Scouting Look like......"
Actually, "rank advancement" refers to two components, neither of which are Baden-Powell's Scouting (which is to say "Scouting" in the rest of the world).
"Rank" in Scouting refers to a leadership position. In real Scouting, the central Rank is "Patrol Leader." The purpose of a Patrol Leader is to get a Patrol into the backwoods without adult supervision. Or, when Patrols camp together as a Troop, the purpose of a Patrol Leader is to camp a Patrol 300 feet from the nearest Patrol. The purpose of a Patrol Leader in the BSA's product is as a generic, interchangeable six-month "POR" to teach office cubical success formulas using trained, two-deep helicopters and "controlled failure."
There are no "POR" requirements in Scouting. A natural leader freely gives his time to others. Patrol Leaders are appointed by the Scoutmaster in consultation with the Patrol and/or Court of Honor (PLC). A Patrol Leader is chosen for his ability to move a Patrol through the backwoods without injury to the Patrol members, and his ability to run a Troop without a "Committee" of indoor mommies and daddies. For this reason alone most Wood Badgers point with pride to the fact that the BSA's product is the opposite of Scouting, designed instead to "teach boys about democracy" through six month popularity contests and (as a natural consequence) constant adult surveillance.
There is no "Advancement" in Scouting. The closest equivalent would be "Current Proficiency," or "Progressive training in Scoutcraft and Public Service skills." Current Proficiency means constant retesting. To wear any award patch in Scouting, a Scout must repass his "qualifying badges" (such as a first aid Public Service badge) every 12-18 months. The BSA's product is the opposite of Scouting, represented neatly by the slogan of Scoutcraft incompetency "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle." In other words the ability of an Eagle to tie a clove hitch or save a life is trivial. What's important is "character and leadership:" Which boils down to an Eagle's opinions, and his ability to build a park bench using pop CEO-wannabe theory.
There are no Boards of Review or Scout Spirit requirements in Scouting. In the BSA product, "Boy Led" means adult-controlled.
There are no hated schoolwork badges in Scouting. Scouting is designed to appeal to outdoor boys. The BSA product is the opposite of Scouting, designed for parlor boys by the morbidly obese: Professional BSA millionaires who hate camping.
There are no "service hour" requirements in Scouting. A Scout freely gives his time to others. Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity." In the BSA's product, boys are taught to extract compensation for services rendered. Why not just pay them to love Jesus?
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------WoodBadge did it!Blame WB21C!
If true.
What will Scouting look like in 2031?
No dirt.
No mud.
No smoke.
No fires.
No crushing the bugs with your tent.
No loud voices?
No risky games.
No running.
No blades.
No climbing.
No falling.
No swimming.
No bathing?
No boys...
dcsimmons commented:
"Hmmm, I figured they dropped the Patrol references in NYLT when they added Venturing youth to the program last year"
Use your words, dcsimmons!
"Hmmm, they program neutered Green Bar Bill's Patrol Leader Training when they added Venturing youth to the program."
"Hmmm, they program neutered Green Bar Bill's Wood Badge when they added Cub Scout Leaders to the program."
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Eagle Nebula M16 commented:WoodBadge did it!Blame WB21C!
If true.
What will Scouting look like in 2031?
No dirt.
No mud.
No smoke.
No fires.
No crushing the bugs with your tent.
No loud voices?
No risky games.
No running.
No blades.
No climbing.
No falling.
No swimming.
No bathing?
No boys...
"Even Scouting's current premier youth training, NYLT, no longer uses terms like "Senior Patrol Leader" - or even "Troop" and "Patrol". What genius thought of that? "
Program Neutering: Use of the term "Patrol Method" to refer to "leadership development" theory, for which the Patrol Leader and independent Patrol activities have been surgically removed.
The last time I staffed Scoutmaster specific training, the term "Patrol Leader" and any description of a working Patrol had been cut from the "Patrol Method" presentation, and replaced with EDGE.
To answer your question, the genius was John Larson, the father of modern Wood Badge. For an account of Wood Badge's destruction of the Patrol Method (from leadership development's point of view), see "1966" at:
http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html
"Some professional and volunteers at the National BSA Council were very resistant to the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scoutcraft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected.
"Larson later reported, 'He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right.' Hillcourt presented an alternative to Larson's plan to incorporate leadership into Wood Badge. Chief Scout Brunton asked Larson to look at Hillcourt's plan, and Larson reported back that it was the same stuff, just reordered and rewritten. Larson's plan for Wood Badge was approved and he moved ahead to begin testing the proposed changes. The program was designed and written by Bánáthy, Perin, and Larson."
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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The two minute trailer was released today, along with a thirty minute interview with director Gavin Hood, producer Bob Orci, and star Asa Butterfield (who plays Ender):
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The first Ender's Game "teaser trailer" was released today:
It includes a couple seconds of fluid effects and dramatic dialogue!
Despite Orson Scott Card's insistance to the contrary for the last 20 years, the actors are all teenagers.
This parallels the BSA's move to move"Real" Scouting over to the Venturing program where many Scouts now first experience adventure and "leadership" in a Patrol-sized unit (if you can call anything with two-deep helicopters "leadership").
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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Ender Himself, Asa Butterfield, Talks Harrison Ford and Ender's Game as a Potential New Star Wars
"There will be no elements from Ender's Shadow."
"IGN: What are some of the specific core messages, or themes, that you think audiences will respond to in Ender's Game?
"Butterfield: Well there's loads of messages in this film. I think some of the key ones are about leadership, and when Ender first comes to Battle School his way of communicating is unlike anything anyone there has ever seen, which is why he shines and does so well..."
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"I think it's because da adults really aren't proficient in their skills. Makin' excuses for the boys is really just a way of makin' excuses for their own lack of proficiency."
Anti-proficiency advocates usually reference the "aims & methods of Scouting;" the mission statement; and/or the slogan "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle."
Presumably all written by the same committee that invents our most cherished fake Baden-Powell quotes
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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JMHawkins: "Draft a mission statement, Luke!"
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Baden-Powell spoke of citizenship as the aim of Scouting to explain why his program was 100% Scoutcraft and had no, as in zero (0), required schoolwork badges.
Simply put, since 1965, whenever any American mentions "aims," he is justifying why we turn Scouting into something that most boys hate, have always hated, and will continue to hate until the end of time.
For Baden-Powell, there is no Scoutcraft without the continual test of adult-free Journeys, Expeditions, and Patrol Outings:
http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm
(This message has been edited by Kudu)
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Gee, I wonder what an all-Scoutcraft program would look like?
Um, Baden-Powell?
B-P's 1938 PO&R:
http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm
A mid-1960's program (which by then had drifted):
http://inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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blw2 writes:
"They do have a nice climbing /repelling wall there."
The tallest one in Florida. Our Troop is on it all day this Saturday!
Some of my photos of the Camp Shands climbing tower:
http://troop452.com/climbing/index.htm
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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RichardB writes:
I liked the Star Wars analogies much better.
The one where you take Luke's laser away, and replace it with leadership skills and ethical choices?
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He wanted his name to be forever associated with what he destroyed.
Too soon?
The point all you Wood Badge enthusiasts are intentionally obscuring is that you "parse" the droppings of your office cubical "leadership skills" role-models, for rules that (in what Baden-Powell called Scouting) should be provided in a copy of Policy, Organization, & Rules (PO&R) given to each and every Scouter.
No surprise there.
B-P's last PO&R:
http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/proficiency_badges.htm
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Yes, Richard "Mark David Chapman" Bourlon celebrated the BSA's centennial by killing William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method.
Has anybody looked at the BSA's actual by-laws to see if Bourlon got the BSA's morbidly obese "Always an Eagle" leadership experts to change them?
In the rest of the world Scouting was based on Baden-Powell, who insisted that every Scouter have a copy of the current rules and regulations.
The Bureaucracy of Scouting? What do you expect from an outdoor organization that bases its "Wood Badge" on office cubical theory?
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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Ugh.
Has anything changed on test-out in the last two years?
The only promising candidate to be our local Troop's next Scoutmaster (outdoorsman, hunter, backpacker, SCUBA diver, pro-Scout-owned tents, pro-"Real" Patrol Method) walked out of OWL/ItOLS.
He said that Friday night and all of the Saturday morning sessions were devoted to cooking, cooking, and more cooking, except for the Friday camp set up session, which still included cold weather camping tips like "use an electric heater on cold nights."
Last time I staffed it, it creeped me out too: Mostly staff with Cub Scout camping experience, but no high adventure interests. Participants? Tables of Den Leaders, fresh out of Wood Badge, petting their plush toy "critters," and tittering and talking whenever the topic strayed toward anything to do with actual outdoor skills for the Boy Scout program (such as how to stay warm at night without electric heaters).
Typically the participants for the entire District include only a couple of Boy Scout volunteers, so I suspect that "required" training is not strictly enforced around here, but...
...but it is required in our local unit: An adult-run Eagle mill in transition. New CC and his wife, the secretary, want to move the Troop backwards (away from camping in areas without electricity and running water), but the Committee has left those decisions up to the Scoutmaster...so far.
So I am motivated to find a way to get this guy around ItOLS.
Rumor is that Council plans to take over the District training.
Not sure who I should talk to about testing him out of ItOLS, since I don't have any Council connections (I've gone to Roundtable twice since I moved to the area in my retirement).
Any suggestions?
Yours at 300 feet,
Kudu
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"The Number One Improvement: Scouts noted a need for improvement
in leadership and leadership training."
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First Class = One (1) week of summer camp.
Why Wood Badge?
in Wood Badge and adult leader training
Posted