Kudu

This might be for older kids, but see "HOW TO SPIN A ROPE: Lariat throwing, Rope Spinning, and Trick Cowboy Knots"

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/spin_rope/index.htm

and also Dan Beard's Lariat "how to"

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/autumn/lariat.htm

> As students of Scouting history we are bound to split hairs...therefore,

> I will.

I don't do much original historical research, although I do see some areas where such an examination of rare old primary materials is needed (B-P's writings on "The Religion of the Woods" and "Practical Christianity," for instance). My own interest lies in establishing traditional Scouting programs, either within the BSA (essentially a return to Hillcourt's methods) or as alternative Traditional Scouting programs based directly on Baden-Powell's own model.

> They did not have to create a patrol with 5 of their buddies like BP

> suggested in SCOUTING FOR BOYS, which was written for the

> independent boy that wanted to start scouting and was not already in

> a Boys Brigade or like-minded program.

Well, you still have to recruit the Scouts and form them into Patrols. I don't see the Patrol Grouping Standards as a necessary, or even helpful function within ready-made organization institutions. When I recruit in the public schools, I find that groups of buddies tend to form Patrols naturally. If not, I use Hillcourt's method of asking them to play a game without telling them how to divide themselves, then stopping the game and instructing them to switch off if they want to because their "team" will be their permanent "Patrol".

The Six Principles were simply a gross misreading (or typical American disregard) of the UK materials. The same thing happened with the formation of the American branch of the British Boy Scouts, called the American Boy Scout (aka The United States Boy Scout). Hopefully in 2005 the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association (BPSA-USA) will finally succeed in introducing Baden-Powell's Scouting program to Americans.

Charismatic boys can still create Patrols by recruiting their buddies. I award a BSA Recruiting Strip when a Scout registers one of his friends, and the round Recruiter patch for three new Scouts. This inevitably prompts the question, "What do we get for bringing in four Scouts?" Which I answer by holding up a Patrol Leader's Patch. Hint: a bribe of three Reeses Cups to the recruiter of each registered new Scout helps too :-)

> So, yes, BP encouraged boys to form their own patrols, but he did

> specify that the boys should be of the same age.

Older boys make better Patrol Leaders, but for better or worse, it is more likely that natural peer-selected Patrols will be of the same age.

> The Proof edition of the SM Handbook notes that there are to be

> elections within a patrol to elect a patrol leader and that there was

> to be a governing body made up of the SM and the PLs, ie. the

> Patrol Leaders Council. Those parts have always been in the US

> program.

It appears that the Patrol Leaders functioned as the Scout Master's teaching assistants. This is admirable as far as it goes, but it is not the Patrol Method. The chapter on training Patrol Leaders states, "As soon as a Leader has been selected he should be recognized as special agent of instruction under the Scout Master, helping to teach to the other patrol members what the Scout Master desires to impart." And "When on hikes, the case is somewhat different. Then Patrol Leaders should seldom be given complete charge."

I have posted this PL Training chapter for those who are interested,

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/training/1st_smhb.htm

The PLC's function seems to have been for providing feedback. It did not have a governing function in the sense of the English Court of Honor deciding where they want to go camping, or what they want to do at weekly meetings. The importance of "Scouting for Boys" was not in forming independent Patrols without the benefit of a sponsoring organization, but in creating a desire within boys to organize their own adventures.

While it may be reassuring to see familiar elements like Patrol Elections and a PLC in the 1st SM Handbook, their actual functions were governed by the Six Principles, which was the BSA's "Eight Methods" of the time.

My reading of the 1st and 2nd Principles, is that the Scout Master is the creative muse who thinks of fun things to do, and then dictates that the boys buy into his adventure:

"First, there must be a clear plan well thought out, progressive in its stages with an aim for each stage. In other words no man need try to work with a group of boys unless he knows what he wants to do, not only in outline but in detail. He must have these details in mind and so well worked out in his thought, knowing exactly what comes next and just what is to be added to that which he has already accomplished, as to be master of the situation at all times and to be the recognized leader." http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/principles.htm

The 2nd Principle is that the Scout Master presents his plan to the boys, either in individual interviews or as a group, and makes it clear to them they must accept the Scout Master's plan if they want join his Troop, "getting their approval, and agreement to get in on the deal."

My reading of the 3rd Principle, "Application of Self-Government" is that the Scout Master lets them figure out how to implement the Scout Master's creative ideas: "Lead by suggestion, so that unconsciously the boys follow your advice and dictation, giving them the benefit of their decisions and impulses. Pure self-government in which the boys are entirely the dictators of their policies and activities can not be thought of because such a course is so generally fatal to successful development."

This idea is also presented in the chapter on Patrol Leader Training, "Best leadership is that which governs indirectly or by suggestion so that the boys believe there has been a real self-governing decision."

> The Silver Bay trial camp in August 1910 was a loose combination of the 2

I think I remember reading in one of the biographies of Ernest Seton ("Black Wolf," maybe) that while all the BSA's experienced youth leaders were off in Silver Bay, some sort of Coup took place back in NY which removed Seton, Beard, and other experienced youth workers from their decision-making positions and replaced them with bankers and lawyers like James West. I believe that the author stated that the BSA actually incorporated twice, with this being the second incorporation. Is that true?

James West then went on to secure a monopoly on Scouting for the BSA, because that is what corporate lawyers did at that time :-)

> BPs program was simply a blueprint for US scouting. Thats all. Much

> like Setons program was a blueprint for English Scouting.

By "blueprint," I assume you mean "inspiration" or "jumping off point," which was my point too: a YMCA brand of Woodcraft Indians would have presented problems for Seton, probably in ways similar to his experience with the BSA. However, it is possible that a conservative version may have been more successful, if we assume that Tim Jeal is incorrect in suggesting that Native American role models simply did not appeal to very many children.

> Hence the overwhelming decision to Americanize the 1910 Scouting

> Handbook in 1911 and further rid many British elements from an American

> Scouting program.

Americans tend to view the BSA's program as the inevitable result of "Americanization" (and "modernization" too, the "One Minute Manager" content of Wood Badge for example). I think this is because we cannot conceive of competition, freedom, and alternatives in American Scouting. These assumptions shape our concepts of what Baden-Powell would do in 2005, and the very idea that Baden-Powell's program needs much tampering to be as fun for 21st Century American children as it was for British boys almost a hundred years ago.

The lure of Scouting, I think, is not in communicating with orbiting satellites to find your way. When I recruit in the public schools, I appeal to the sense of adventure boys find in a primitive encounter with the very forces of nature that shaped our evolution as a species. Despite our advances in technology, a 12 year-old Scout sleeping in a nylon tent in the wilderness this weekend, will have much the same experience as his great-grandfather did sleeping in a canvas tent a hundred years ago. When he gets up in the morning, the firewood will need the same ratio of heat and oxygen to ignite as it did a hundred years ago. He will cook his pancakes in much the same way, and he will enjoy them just as much :-)

If no one else has actually come out and said it, I think that a Patrol taking off on a high-adventure activity on the same weekend as a Camporee is the very definition of "Patrol Spirit."

The message that I see being sent to the younger Scouts is that older boys have different interests, and are capable of undertaking more challenging adventures because of their size, strength, and (ideally) maturity. Another message is that as boys get older, girls, cars, and jobs take up an increasing amount of time. If despite all that, they are still camping as a Patrol, then you are doing something right.

You also mention that they like to play "Capture the Flag," rather than sit around a campfire. When organized by themselves and played using Patrols as the opposing teams, Wide Games are very much a part of the older "tradition" of Scouting, and a more healthy sign of Patrol Spirit than any adult-supervised Camporee competition could ever be.

For those who are interested, a collection of 84 traditional Wide Games can be found at The Inquiry Net:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide

This weekend our Troop's older Scout Patrols will camp with the Troop on Friday night, but then set off on their own backpacking trip. Nothing too challenging, just a four mile jaunt to finish a Camping Merit Badge requirement on which they are all working together.

In case you haven't guessed, I hate "Camporees." For one thing they violate my first (and most important) rule of Troop car-camping, which is "No Patrol is allowed to camp in a Patrol site visible from another Patrol's campsite (preferably out of earshot too)" This, of course, is problematic in a typical Camporee in our area, which almost always takes place in manicured public parks, the very essence of what Baden-Powell described as "Parlour Scouting."

That being said, my younger Scouts love the competitions and the patches, and as often as I try to discourage them from attending, the Patrol Leaders vote unanimously to attend, with more enthusiasm than necessary, I might add :-)

I have thought of registering each Patrol going to a Camporee as a separate Troop to space them apart, or even sending each Patrol to a Camporee in a different district :-)

Next month we are attending an "invitational" multi-Troop campout. I am going to try to talk the organizers into allowing our Patrols to scatter along an unused dirt road I saw there last year. I'm sure that this will go against the grain of having each Troop in a nice neat rectangular area, but it doesn't hurt to ask, right?

> Are you sure, Kudu...the first SM Handbook (1913 - 1914), p. 18, states:

> "Troops and Patrols. The Boy Scouts, themselves, are organized into

> troops and their subdivisions, the patrols. A patrol consists of eight boys,

> one of whom becomes the patrol leader."

Yes, Troops were "divided into" Patrols, but I don't think you will find any public mention of B-P's Patrol System until 1923. An appendix titled the "Patrol Method" was bound into the later printings of the second SM Handbook (which I guess was about three years before Hillcourt's arrival, do you have any information as to how this came about?) This new-fangled "Patrol Method" was, at long last, touted by James West as "a radical change in the management of troops...."

The BSA theory used before the Patrol System was something called the "Six Principles of Boy-Work," which sounds like YMCA theory to me, but I have never found a source. Do you know where it comes from?

At any rate, the "Six Principles of Boy Work" was the exact opposite of the Patrol System.

The "Scout Master" was instructed to divide the Troop into Patrols using BSA "Grouping Standards (p. 82)" These Standards were based on "the experience of boy workers in various parts of the country," rather than on Baden-Powell's program.

My personal favorite was the "Height and Weight Standard" (which the BSA expected to "become the real basis of all groupings in the future"): "all the boys of ninety pounds and under might be put together, the same being true for those under one hundred and ten, one hundred and twenty-five, and one hundred and forty pounds.

"If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight."

Social class was yet another BSA Grouping Standard by which adults could divide the Scouts. This was the "School Boy or Wage-Earning Boy Standard. If the boy happens to be in the grammar school, he may be grouped with boys of his own educational advancement; so with the boys who are in the secondary or high schools, and the same may be said of working boys who are forced to earn their own livelihood."

The BSA suggested that adults might be "most satisfied" by dividing the Scouts into Patrols by their interests, "Some boys will be mutually interested in collecting stamps, riding a bicycle, forming a mounted patrol, working with wireless, in music and orchestra work, etc., and boys grouped according to such kindred interests as they manifest has proven most satisfactory in general boys' work."

While this may sound relatively enlightened, nowhere does the 1st "Handbook for Scout Masters" suggest that the Scouts form THEMSELVES into Patrols, which, of course, was the whole point of Baden-Powell's Patrol System, as later advanced by Hillcourt in his vision of Patrols as natural groupings of "boy gangs."

The "Six Principles of Boy-Work," however, was a collection of rules by which the "Scout Master" established himself "to be master of the situation at all times and to be the recognized leader [1st Principle]"

The 2nd Principle stated that "he should tell the boys what the game is and how it is to be played, getting their approval, and agreement to get in on the deal."

One of the BSA methods of investing the "Scout Master" with complete control over the Troop, was to keep the Patrol Leaders completely powerless. In those rare circumstances when the Scout Master delegated decision-making to the Scouts, he was instructed to delegate to the WHOLE GROUP rather than to the Patrol Leader:

"The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master

"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan [p. 85]."

BSA Patrol "Grouping Standards" and the "Six Principles of Boy-Work" from the above pages of the 1st "Handbook for Scout Masters" can be found at:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/principles.htm

Rick Seymour

The Inquiry Net

www.inquiry.net

Miki writes:

> Without BP, the Scouting that would have occurred would have been

> in the non-militaristic, highly Americanized vision of Dan Beard.

For those who are interested, the entire Dan Beard handbook for his pre-Scouting boys' organizations, "The Boy Pioneers: Sons of Daniel Boone," can be found at The Inquiry Net:

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/beard/pioneers

If you check out their constitution, you can see that the program is truly "boy-lead," which may have presented problems for year-to-year continuity in local chapters (called "forts") :-)

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/constitution_beard.htm

I have never been able to locate any written equivalent to adult "aims and methods" in Beard. Does anyone have anything? For a brief history of aims & methods outlines in B-P, Seton, and the BSA, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods

> The other option (which would have fared better because of the backing

> of the YMCA) would have been the Woodcraft Indians, which would have

> morphed into a massive Indian Guides program.

Tim Jeal writes that despite Seton's "head start," his Birch Bark scheme never caught on in the United States to the degree that Seton envisioned. Jeal felt that the recently vanquished Native Americans simply never had the role model appeal for American boys that Baden-Powell's hunters, explorers, and even African natives did.

But another possibility is that Seton's program was progressive, and I suspect that liberal institutions have never supported on-going outdoor programs for their children. I don't have any historical perspective on this, I'm just speculating on what I see in current liberal institutions like the UUA.

Had the YMCA backed the Woodcraft Indians, they most likely would have morphed it into a socially conservative institution. This might have been more successful, although it might not have been recognizable as the Woodcraft Indians (remember that the YMCA-influenced BSA did not use the Patrol System until William Hillcourt's arrival).

For those who are interested, the entire 1927 edition of Ernest Seton's "Birch Bark Roll of Woodcraft" is online at:

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch

> However, the first thing that I believe he would do would be to re-write

> SCOUTING FOR BOYS (on his laptop using Word) to reflect the modern

> times.

We all agree that we can only speculate as to how B-P would approach Scouting if he were alive today. The "Traditional Scouting" Movement (the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association [bPSA] being the most well-known) works from the opposite direction. Their program is a return to Baden-Powell's "Scouting for Boys," which preserves his program as much as possible, making changes for health, environmental, first-aid, and safety reasons only. The American branch (BPSA-USA) should launch sometime this summer.

The generic, decentralized, Traditional Scouting program, called "Independent Scouting," can be found at:

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/handbook

As you can see, Baden-Powell's Traditional model differs from the modern BSA model in a number of ways, including "observational" advancement requirements such as Kim's Game, tracking, and following trail signs. Observation was a big deal with both B-P and Seton (and the early BSA) but now, not so much.

Another important Traditional element is the "expedition." These were unsupervised hiking/backpacking experiences required for every advancement Award from Second Class on. The "First Class Journey" reads:

"Go on foot with three other Second Class Scouts, on a 24 hour journey of at least 15 miles. In the course of the journey you must cook your own meals, one of which must contain meat or other raw ingredients. Find your own campsite and camp for the night. Carry out the instructions of the examiner as to things to be observed en-route. You must independently each make a detailed log of the journey (This to be the last test)."

This is still practiced in the BPSA associations of other countries, but will have to be adapted in the United States to conform to American sensibilities :-/

> I do not think that he would go around issuing orders to change the uniform.

Baden-Powell insisted on short pants (which, by some accounts, were not even popular with boys in his own time) and long-sleeve shirts, which were rolled up. For instructions on how to make these shirts, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/shirt01.htm

B-P's views on the Uniform are still adhered to in some strict Traditional associations, but have been changed in others to suit local climates, such as Canada. The American BPSA will offer the practical BDU ("cargo") pants. In my opinion, nylon "zip-off" cargo pants make the best Scouting uniform, but these are not available from suppliers in a consistent year-to-year style. On the other hand, BDU pants are an industry standard, and are easily adapted to meet the needs of small Scouting associations. For a detailed photographic comparison table of various styles of "activity pants," see:

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

> He would instead try to re-build Scoutings infrastructure from the philosophical

> viewpoint and reiterate that Scouting is non-denominational but there is a basic

> belief in some Supreme Being.

Given the changes in our culture, I suspect that the ideal 2005 Baden-Powell (free from the political realities of defending earthly Scouting institutions) might advance some Christian idea of unconditional love toward Scouts who do not share his belief in a Supreme Being. B-P clearly expressed his spiritual beliefs in terms of "God," but this was an inclusive God characterized by some as the non-supernatural, pantheistic God of his father, as found in the "elder" Rev. Baden Powell's "The Order of Nature," which B-P described as "the most remarkable book he had ever read:"

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature

At about the same time as B-P changed his last name from Powell to Baden-Powell to honor his father, the Rev. Baden Powell, his heretical father was being publicly denounced by Anglican conservatives, like Canon Pusey, who "crowed over his death as 'his removal to a higher tribunal' and publicly suggested that he had died without the consolation of religious faith, [at 13 years old] Stephe [b-P] was old enough to understand the attack. He grew up with a distrust of clergymen and theology which he would never lose [Jeal, page 11].

According to the oral tradition of the Traditional Scouting Movement, as Scouting spread to non-theistic cultures such as Buddhist Burma (mentioned in "Scouting for Boys" as a distinguished example of "practical Christianity"), he wrote an "Outlander Promise" for such foreign ("outlander") cultures:

On my honor I promise to do my best:

To render service to my country;

To help other people at all times;

To obey the Scout Law.

I can't find any written sources for the origin of the "Outlander Promise," but it was probably also used in British Scouting associations such as the "Outlander Scouts," which eventually merged with the Christian "British Boy Scouts," for six years. Conservative British Traditional Scouting leaders write that Baden-Powell referred to English Scouts "who could not make the full Scout Promise," as "Outlanders" ("The Great World Scout Schism and The History of the British Boy Scouts," Reverend Michael John Foster, page 77), which implies that he treated them with the patience suggested in "Scoutmastership," where he describes in detail the game of Scouting to be played with "lads of practically no religion of any kind":

(a) Personal example of the Scoutmaster.

(b) Nature study.

© Good turns.

(d) Missioner service.

(e) Retention of the older boy.

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm#no_religion

For those who are interested, a few extended passages from Tim Jeal's biography "Baden-Powell" concerning B-P's spiritual development can be found at:

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

> He may even re-issue his 1910 circular on How to Pray.

Do you have that in a digital form?

> I greatly resent your insinuations.

I don't see why. I seem to be a lone voice in this forum. Everywhere you go for the rest of your life you will be celebrated by non-Unitarian-Universalists for your work in outflanking the UUA. Let me concede right here and now that the UUSO's program is a great victory for the religious right. In the coming years, as the BSA Handbooks and glossy religious awards posters feature "Living your Religion" as "the" Unitarian-Universalist religious award, even UU children and adults will be confused.

I can only hope that Unitarian-Universalists finally wake up, connect the dots, and come to understand that this is what happens when the government gets in the business of establishing a religious corporation with an absolute monopoly on Scouting.

> The BSA Religious Relationships subcommittee did not "create" the

> UUSO. The UUSO is not a "puppet". As was posted, the UUSO was

> created by UU Scouters, who after several years of patient work were

> invited to join the subcommittee.

You were invited only because you let it be known that you were willing to "play ball" with the Religious Relationships subcommittee and produce a Unitarian-Universalist program that did not include the pamphlet "In Support of All People." Can I prove exactly how this exchange in some private room of a large religious monopoly corporation was worded? No.

You silence as to whether or not you also agreed not to distribute "When Others Say 'God'," is less understandable. The contents are really mild in comparison to Catholic theology in the last 30 years. Please tell us that you did at least show some moral backbone in standing up to Lawrence Ray Smith and the Religious Relationships subcommittee on this spiritual matter. See:

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/say_god.htm

> For example, the Ner Tamid is sponsored by the National Jewish

> Committee on Scouting and the Alpha Omega is sponsored by the

> Eastern Orthodox Committee on Scouting. There are others. Neither

> of these organizations are official arms of a religious body and neither

> are they "puppets" of anyone.

And neither was created because the Religious Relationships subcommittee rejected Jewish or Eastern Orthodox teachings and needed a puppet to circumvent matters of faith in that religious community.

As David Peavy writes in UU-Scouting:

"There is a big difference between the Jewish and Eastern Orthodox faiths,

and the Unitarian-Universalist faith in the USA. With Judaism and Eastern

Orthodox Christianity there are several national churches or branches

within each faith tradition. For example, within Judaism there is the

Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionism, etc. branches. Within

Eastern Orthodox Christianity, there are several national churches, mostly

due to which country that particular religion developed.

"With these faiths, having one organization where each religious faith

tradition is represented is much better than having 4-5 different Jewish

Committees on Scouting and each with their own religious emblem program.

However, that is not the case with the Unitarian-Universalist church, in

that there is one national body -- the UUA. Or are there other national

associations of Unitarian-Universalist churches, that are not affiliated

with the UUA? If so, then the UUSO-model would be appropriate, provided

that all of the National UU Churches agreed and had official

representatives on the UUSO. As we've learned that the UUA has never heard

of the UUSO, much less have any official representative on your board, then

it is difficult to differentiate your group from another group that starts

the UUSA, or the UUBSA, etc. Each would be equally lacking in standing in

the eyes of both the UUA and Unitarian-Universalism.

"In addition, I cannot recall any instance where a relationship between the

BSA and a church had been established, broken off, and then a group of

individual Scouters, with no authority from the church, assumes the

previous relationship. Can you cite me such a precedent?"

> However, the LyR award and its knot may be worn on the Scout's

> uniform without the need for self-serving word-spinning of "honesty".

It is not necessary to "spin words." To wear the RiL on the BSA uniform is to defy the Religious Relationships subcommittee's religious discrimination with direct action. As for the knot, the wording is ambiguous. Most religious conservatives, including Mike Walton, interpret it to mean that the knot can be worn on the Uniform after earning Religion in Life.

> Your assumptions about what the LyR curriculum includes - or does

> not include - are premature to say the least, and inflammatory.

> As was posted, the UUSO does not yet have a web presence and

> the pamphlets are not yet printed. The approval was barely 6 weeks

> ago.

If was "approved" by the RR then the program is finished. How long does it take to set up a "web presence"? A couple of hours? Do you need technical help?

> Your assumptions about what the LyR curriculum includes -

> or does not include - are premature to say the least, and inflammatory.

> I truly don't understand why you, and others on UU-Scouting, are so

> negative and ready to mistrust your fellow UUs.

You have kept your curriculum a secret from even your own UUSO members. Your program was approved only because it does not include the pamphlet, "In Support of All People." Is that assertion really so "premature"? Prove me wrong!

It will be interesting to see if take precautions to keep a majority of UUSO members from voting to include "In Support of All People," And "When Others say 'God'" with your program, as you know very well a majority of any random cross-section of UUA Scouters would do.

> Where I am, I see many UU Scouts who do not undertake any RE

> program because "you can't wear it on your uniform".

They sound really committed :-/ 500 Boy Scouts have earned the award since the BSA banned it, it would be interesting to view the UUA's statistics for the previous years to see if the BSA's anti-Unitarian-Universalist actions did indeed discourage boys from earning their religious award.

> The sole objective of the UUSO is to encourage UU Scouts to

> learn about their faith. Where I am, that's a good thing.

I'll give David Peavy the last word:

"The UUA, through its development of the RIL and L&H programs, had already

accomplished the stated goal of the UUSA. Whether a UU Scout wears a UUA

emblem or the BSA Square Knot, is up to the Scout and it is not "an act of

civil disobedience." When has BSA Uniform Regulations become US Law?

Besides, once again, are you so concerned with wearing a piece of medal

that you fail to realize that the purpose of the program should be to help

the Scout in his spiritual life?"

Proud Eagle writes:

> It sounds like BSA didn't like the old UUA stuff because it openly

> disagreed with BSA policies. It would be nuts for a group to support

> distribution of materials that do not support its policies....

> Finally, the false conflict between Catholicism and supporting our

> armed forces is entirely contrived.

It was an analogy, and all analogies are contrived. The idea is to make a strange situation seem more understandable by making a comparison to some imaginary situation.

I clearly indicated that the contraction between the BSA's "Support our Troops" hoopla and the Pope's statement against the war was completely hypothetical :-/

The UUA including the pamphlets "When Others Say God" and "In Support of All People" with their religious award after the BSA went to court to establish that the Scout Oath and Law excludes certain children from being Scouts, can be put in perspective if you imagined the BSA interpreting "Duty to my country," "Obedient," and "Loyal" to exclude children who do not recognize an obligation to "support our troops in Iraq."

If that directly contradicted some statement by the Pope against the Iraq war, I don't see how anyone would consider it to be unreasonable to include a pamphlet with the "Ad Altare Dei" award to explain to Scouts what the Church means to be "pro life."

Perhaps it was an ill-advised analogy, because I don't know where Catholics in the BSA's Religious Relationships subcommittee stand on dictating matters of faith to a religious community.

nldscout writes:

> I am not a UU nor have any intention of becoming one. I would

> however say that the debate about who in the UU church can

> issue a religious medal would be better discussed among UU

> church members on the UU list.

The subject of the discussion is "Religious Emblem Approved for Unitarian Universalist Youth!"

Fred Goodwin writes:

> I agree with you [nldscout] ...So by analogy, there's no reason that

> non-UUs should be precluded from discussing UU issues here, although

> I agree there is little that we (non-UUs) can do about it.

"Little that we (non-UUs) can do about it"? That is the whole point, isn't it? You, a "non-UU," were the one who broke this story, and it will be non-UUs, from PRAY to the unwitting local volunteers, who promote this medal as THE UU religious award.

The Religious Relationships Committee, which was composed entirely of non-Unitarian-Universalists, selected people who disagree with the UUA to administer the religious conservative's "approved" fake Unitarian-Universalist religious program.

Its like the red Chinese picking Tibet's next Dali Lama.

Fred Goodwin writes:

> nuqDaq 'oH puchpa' 'e'

I'm sorry, but I'm new to this forum and I can't follow Fred Goodwin's Klingon logic. Can someone translate?

Hunt writes:

> A couple of points here: Trevorum's original post makes it clear that

> UUSO is not affiliated with UUA.

He wrote that they were working "in coordination with Rev. Sinkford who has approved of our organization and its objectives." To me this implies that Sinkford and the UUA were at least AWARE (which they deny) of the UUSO and its objectives. There is no such approval of their organization and its objectives.

> It seems to me that if BSA wants to recognize a religious award

> designed by a scouter group it can do so.

Certainly. If they want to, they can also bump Ner Tamid, and substitute a religious award designed by "Jews for Jesus."

> I do think it should be clear who does and does not support the

> award.

On that we agree, but do you really think that the BSA is going to divulge that information on its glossy four-color poster of religious awards "approved" by religious conservatives?

> I would like to suggest to anybody connected with the UUA that it

> is dishonest to urge scouts to wear the emblem on their uniforms if

> you know that BSA does not recognize the emblem for uniform wear.

"Dishonest" is the wrong word. What you are looking for is a negative term for "civil disobedience." The boys are well aware of the BSA's policies against their beliefs. Standing up for what they believe is a tradition that goes back to the sixteenth-century Unitarians, who acted on their own rational convictions in the face of overwhelming orthodox opposition and persecution.

> At the very least, you should acknowledge that you are asking the

> boys to violate the rules of BSA.

When worn on the BSA Uniform, the "Religion in Life" medal is a nifty intolerance detector. By the time they are teenagers, Unitarian-Universalist youth are old enough to understand that a smiling Scoutmaster may actually embrace the BSA's discrimination rules and order them to remove their religious medal. But it is significant that of the 500 Religion in Life medals sold to Boy Scouts since the BSA forbade them, not a single such confrontation has been reported. Perhaps the Religious Relationships Committee had to create the puppet UUSO when they discovered that Scouting volunteers will not do the BSA's bidding when it comes to persecuting a boy from their own Troop.

> [PRAY's] announcement was silent with respect to the relationship of

> UUSA to UUA. So any speculation on that relationship amounts to

> "talking by those not in the know".

That was true until yesterday.

> Why don't we wait for an official announcement from UUA before

> speculating on that relationship?

That was the official announcement from the UUA, Fred.

1. "Religion in Life" is the Unitarian-Universalist Association (UUA)'s Boy Scout religious award.

2. Religion in Life is administered by Jesse C Jaeger, the UUA's Youth Programs Director.

3. Jesse C Jaeger never heard of the so-called "Unitarian Universalist Scouters Organization" (UUSO).

It looks like UUSO, PRAY, and the BSA conspired to lead Unitarian-Universalist youth away from their own Religion in Life award.

PackSaddle writes:

> However, it was to my surprise to realize that BSA placed their

> restrictions on UUA scouts in order (is everyone ready for this?)

> TO PROTECT THE BOYS. Riiight!

Actually Lawrence Ray Smith's exact words were, "Unfortunately, this simply reopens the entire issue of using boys as a venue to air your differences with the policies of the Boy Scouts of America."

So what does he do? His committee recognizes a group of Scouters who apparently disagree with the UUA's position regarding religious freedom.

Its like a group of Iraq war supporters creating a "Pro-American" Catholic religious award to encourage Catholic boys to turn their backs on the Pope.

Smith's committee is using boys as a venue to air their differences with the policies of the Unitarian-Universalist Association.

Jesse C Jaeger, the UUA's Youth Programs Director, confirmed today that the Unitarian Universalist Scouters Organization (UUSO) is not known to them, and that the "UUSO has no formal relationship to the UUA and is not recognized as an affiliate organization by the UUA's Board of Trustees."

The statement continues:

"The UUA still makes available to UU Scouts our Religion in Life manual

and the Religion in Life emblem. We encourage the UU Scout to earn his

religious emblem, to have it awarded to him by his congregation, and to

wear it in the appropriate place on his uniform. We have never heard of

even a single instance when a UU Scout was told he could not wear his

Religion in Life emblem on his uniform.

"Contrary to the statement in the email that 'an entire generation of

Scouts had grown up without the opportunity to wear the emblem of their

faith on their uniform,' the UUA has sold more than 500 Religion in Life

emblems over the past seven years to UU Scouts....

"The UUA has always acknowledged the many benefits that Scouting offers

to boys and young men. We will continue to support UU youth who enter

Scouting by distributing the Religion in Life manual and emblem, and our

congregations will honor UU Scouts when they earn this emblem of their

faith community."

Trevorum wrote:

> How do you other SMs handle the "Scout Spirit" requirement? Do you

> have criteria (written or not) or go with gut instinct. This is always the

> central point of my SM conferences for Star, Life and Eagle. We briefly

> review the candidates completion of all the other requirements, but then

> have a fairly intense discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law, what

> they mean and how to live one's life that way.

> What do you other SMs do?

Most discussions of "Scout Spirit" advancement requirements revolve around how adults should judge a Scout's character. A different approach is to use the requirement to encourage the Scout to learn the meaning of each Scout Law by examining his own actions.

I do this in the form of a "game" called the "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt." The hunt takes the form of a worksheet which I hand out at the beginning of the campout on which I expect the Scout to complete the requirements for his next rank. The worksheet has a short definition of each Scout Law with a space in which the Scout writes an example of his behavior on a campout that matches that definition. For example:

12. A Scout finds wonder all around him: in the tiny secrets of creation, in the great mysteries of the universe, and in the kindness of people. Sometimes he feels a chill or a "sense of awe" when he witnesses the beauty, the vastness, or the raw force of nature.

I was REVERENT when I______________________________________

___________________________________________________________

See the complete Scavenger Hunt at The Inquiry Net:

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit

The Scout then brings his completed Scavenger Hunt to the Scoutmaster Conference. We discuss each of his 12 campout experiences and how that relates to his behavior in "everyday life." I write notes on this worksheet for my own use later. If the Scout is dyslexic, most of the Scavenger Hunt ends up in my handwriting. A Scout's ability to do paperwork is helpful to me, but not a requirement. See:

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit/directions.htm

I keep the completed forms in my Scouting notebook until the next Court of Honor, when they are used in our candle-lighting ceremony in a pitch-dark room. This is why every answer must include some small detail of what the Scout smelled, heard, saw, tasted, felt, or did on a campout! Before the rehearsal, I select what I consider to be the best answer to each of the 12 Laws, and that Scout lights the candle for that particular Law.

For example:

Scout (Standing at the ceremonial candle rack, and facing the audience): "Reverent"

Chorus of All Scouts (Loudly): "A Scout is Reverent"

Scout: (Lights the 12th candle on the rack, and faces the audience) "I was reverent when I felt a shiver at the Scouthaven campout. I looked at all of the stars in the sky and it made me think about God"

See "Candlelight Ceremony" at The Inquiry Net:

http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/ceremonies/candlelight.htm

Part of the purpose of the Candle Advancement Ceremony is as a public relations message to parents that gives specific examples of the importance of Scouting in their sons' lives, and why they should not use Scout campouts as something to take away as punishment for bad grades in school. This is why every answer should be about something that the Scout learned on a campout. These experiences have a far greater impact if they include some small detail of what the Scout smelled, heard, saw, tasted, felt, or did!

Yours in Scouting,

Rick Seymour

The Inquiry Net

www.inquiry.net

I'm reminded of the adage "Those who talk don't know, and those who know, aren't talking."

So, not knowing any of the facts, my best guess is that the UUSO simply caved on distributing the pamphlets "When Others Say God" and "In Support of All People" to Scouts working on their "Religion in Life" award. The BSA's Religious Relationships Committee had objected to these in their letter of May 7, 1999 rescinding approval of the UUA "Religion in Life" award.

Meanwhile, here are some background information URLs for those who are interested:

1) A summary of a 2001 UUA General Assembly (GA) panel discussion about Scouting, which includes an announcement of the NUUAS (AKA UUSO?):

"Another person said they had just formed the National Unitarian Universalist Association of Scouters whose purpose is to maintain and expand the use of Scouting as a youth ministry and to help instill stronger ethical values in young people."

http://www.uua.org/ga/ga01/5052.html

2) A form letter from Michael Healy that was sent to people who were both a Unitarian Universalist and registered Scouter, asking them to join the National Unitarian Universalist Association of Scouters (NUUAS). The letter is not dated, but it mentions Dr. John Buehrens, who served as President of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations from 1993 to 2001.

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/uua-9899-letters.html#Healy

3) "When Others Say 'God'," one of the two offending pamphlets mentioned in the above May 7, 1999 letter (the BSA forbidding this is, to me, a clear-cut case of religious discrimination):

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/say_god.htm

4) The other offending pamphlet, "In Support of All People." I can understand why this anti-discrimination information would be unacceptable to a private religious corporation (with a government-established monopoly on Scouting) after it went all the way to the Supreme Court to defend its right to discriminate, but to me it is the moral equivalent of a hypothetical inclusion of material by Catholics explaining to Scouts working on their "Ad Altare Dei" award, on how to reconcile a "pro-life" position critical of the popular Iraq war with a contradictory high-profile BSA "Support Our Troops" policy.

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/uua/support.htm

5) The offending cover letter from John A. Buehrens, also mentioned in the above May 7, 1999 letter:

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/uua/buehrens_ril.htm

6) For those who have not already read it, the UUA's version of our dispute with the BSA, including the back and forth letters between the UUA and the BSA regarding the "Religion in Life" award:

http://www.uua.org/news/scouts/

I guess people don't sign their posts to the Scouter Forums on Scouter.Com?

Rick Seymour

UU-Scouting Moderator

http://lists.uua.org/mailman/listinfo/uu-scouting

Trevorum,

Your post seems to imply that you are a member of the Unitarian Universalist Scouters Organization (UUSO). I was a member for a year, but I never received ANY information about the group. Indeed, the only confirmation that I had ever been a member (or that the organization even existed) was a renewal letter telling me that my "membership" had expired!

I have some specific questions:

1. Was the UUSO created as a result of an agreement between the UUA and the BSA?

2. Does the UUA have an officially designated representative on the UUSO?

3. In its interactions with the BSA, does the UUSO consult with the UUA?

4. If a religious emblem program was developed by the UUSO, was it approved by the UUA first?

5. Does the UUSO have any members subscribed to the uua.org Scouting discussion group, UU-Scouting? We would be interested in knowing who you are, and what you stand for.

Rick Seymour

UU-Scouting Moderator

http://lists.uua.org/mailman/listinfo/uu-scouting